Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Nice job Mr. Master.

thanx...

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
But I'm confused. Isn't the Phoenix supposed to be the sum of all life in the multiverse?

Obviously not.

There were alot of supposed to be's...no more of that.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
It is also said to be "the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will, exist in all realities of the multiverse."
Wouldn't that make it a multiversal entity?

If you can iether show me or tell me where to see and read that in a comic book...I'll believe it.
And then you'l have to show me her using "all the psionic energy" of the multiverse..otherwise it's hyperbole. GS would be the first to say this.

As you can tell from page one...all her greatest feats came out..and non-were Multiversal.
Not even projecting the essence of the Lighthouse across all realities..which at first I gave her full credit...yes, GS had me on that one two...after flipping some pages found out this:

Necrom, and his two pupils Feron and Merlyn, discovered energy fields. They realized that these energy fields were doorways between worlds -- all worlds existed as reflections of each other in the so called Multiverse.

Everytime the parallel worlds were aligned they created an extremely powerful energy matrix. Necrom wanted the power of this energy matrix for himself...

Necrom, Feron, and Merlyn traveled to the prime world of all these parallel worlds -- that was of course "our" world, also known as 616...

On our earth they discovered a tower that functioned as a doorway to the other worlds... Necrom & Co. wanted to have this tower (this doorway) at all earths in all parallel realities, but to do this they needed something stronger than themselves...

Through meditation Feron had come in contact with a powerful force in the universe... This force was power without awareness, but when Feron's mind touched it, it became aware of its own existence...

At a moment when all the parallel worlds were aligned, Feron made the Phoenix force project the tower throughout the Multiverse, and now each world had a doorway to the other parallel worlds.

Necrom who wanted the power of the energy matrix, wanted the worlds to collide and become one -- this would give him the power of a god.

Why research is a good thing...

Originally posted by Mr Master
thanx...

Obviously not.

There were alot of supposed to be's...no more of that.

If you can iether show me or tell me where to see and read that in a comic book...I'll believe it.
And then you'l have to show me her using "all the psionic energy" of the multiverse..otherwise it's hyperbole. GS would be the first to say this.

As you can tell from page one...all her greatest feats came out..and non-were Multiversal.
Not even projecting the essence of the Lighthouse across all realities..which at first I gave her full credit...yes, GS had me on that one two...after flipping some pages found out this:

Necrom, and his two pupils Feron and Merlyn, discovered energy fields. They realized that these energy fields were doorways between worlds -- all worlds existed as reflections of each other in the so called Multiverse.

Everytime the parallel worlds were aligned they created an extremely powerful energy matrix. Necrom wanted the power of this energy matrix for himself...

Necrom, Feron, and Merlyn traveled to the prime world of all these parallel worlds -- that was of course "our" world, also known as 616...

On our earth they discovered a tower that functioned as a doorway to the other worlds... Necrom & Co. wanted to have this tower (this doorway) at all earths in all parallel realities, but to do this they needed something stronger than themselves...

Through meditation Feron had come in contact with a powerful force in the universe... This force was power without awareness, but when Feron's mind touched it, it became aware of its own existence...

At a moment when all the parallel worlds were aligned, Feron made the Phoenix force project the tower throughout the Multiverse, and now each world had a doorway to the other parallel worlds.

Necrom who wanted the power of the energy matrix, wanted the worlds to collide and become one -- this would give him the power of a god.

Why research is a good thing...

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You're good.

😮‍💨

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is ill...

A little bit of trivia, who is this mighty being.?

Question: was there a Phoenix Force in the previous universe?

The Marvel.com bio confuses me.

It says that the Phoenix allowed Eternity to create Galactus.

My oh my there is indeed a great deal of ownage in here.

Question though where do those charged with watching over the Omniverse, which is said to encompass the multiple multiverses, i.e. Roma and Merlyn although they may not necessarily be very powerful in the grand scheme, fit in?

Originally posted by superbatman86
The watcher that first spotted Galactus.

Nice.

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]On the first page it's pretty much evident that she can destroy atleast...A Universe...yep..I'll give her that.
She rearranged the 616 Universe atom by atom in her hands(very impressive feat)she had full control of that Universe...she can...destroy a Universe.

😛

You know it's funny you say that...I thought that once.
But it makes no difference...it still keeps her at a Universal level.

Was there any doubt that she was anything but universal?

That's an interesting theory...pardon me...am I right by saying theory?
I'm saying..you read this in what issues?
You have scans?

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=6/17712590170.jpg&s=f5

There's also that What If where LT runs into the alternate reality Phoenix Force but What If's aren't canon.

The Phoenix accidentally met Galactus and tried to stop him from consuming a planet's life energy, but the battle ended when Galactus told the Phoenix force what pain it caused the Universe... In its natural state the Phoenix force was sustained by the warmth of life's fiery cycle -- but when the Phoenix gained its own consciousness, and became aware of its own existence, it wanted to enter our plane of reality. To exist here it took power from life yet to be born, and had thus become a parasite on the Universe...

I've read that. It just fits in with the Phoenix Force being part of creation like Galactus, Eternity, Death, Order, Chaos, etc.

The big bang occurred and "This is how I came into being" said the Phoenix Force. The PF actually remembers it's birth:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/75...4.jpg&s=x11

I hear that but Death survived a direct assault by Thanos with the Full power of the IG. everyone was Thanos's puppet...Death survived and even escaped...besides that she obviously keeps on ticking while Living Tribunal is absorbed and gone along with the most powerful beings in the reality.

Thanos wasn't trying to kill her. You and I know that. Throughout the whole affair, she was angry and displeased that he was now more powerful than her. When she attempted to fight him, she lost along with every other cosmic being. Against, Nebula with the Infinity Gauntlet, she also lost. She's not above the IG or HOTU. The Infinity Gauntlet has yet to even hurt LT. The HOTU pwned LT like no other.

Death is not above the IG or HOTU.

However, her realm is up for debate. Her realm is powerful. Where it is in the MU is unknown. When the Cosmic Egg of the Goddess caused a rapture that cleansed the cosmos and breaching even the fourth wall, Death in her realm knew this all along and was waiting as, you've provided:
http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deathperceivesall1vp.jpg

Death's domain truly spans ALL creation...every Universe that Marvel has created, Death is there and will be the last there...until there is no more life to consume...and then Death it's self...wiil become non-existent.

Warlock remarked "there was another you overlooked in your made frenzy of absorption Titan. For she too, exists in a plane actuality outside this poor reality. Sometimes you trying too hard is the problem. Sometimes surrendering is the only path to victory."

He overlooked it. Warlock also safe. Does that mean Warlock is more powerful than LT?

I'm not going to comment on the Phoenix vs LT debate because I am ignorant on the subject. I don't follow Phoenix, so I have no right to comment on it. I'll leave that to GS.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Evidently I did, as I always knew I had.
Finally the New Living Tribunal bio is here and there it clarifies for us that indeed, "LT's power serpassed that of Gems."
Ofcourse I already said this but you bone heads were to stubborn to except this.

LT said he represents power that dwarfs the IG
Warlock acknowledge that LT serves someone beyond the IG
And the bio say's it too. -------- Now what!

LT said it.

LT was referring to the being he serves, not his own power. We know whomever he serves is above the IG. However, it's questionable if the LT is.

http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig37jm.jpg

If the LT was so sure of his superior power, he would not have doubted himself in fighting Warlock. And if you want to use your "determining" explanation, it still means that the LT had to calculate his power against Warlock's. Not at all an indication of the LT dwarfing the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Warlock said it.

True, but he never acknowledges the LT's superiority.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Living Tirbunal's bio says it.
http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltbio6iy.jpg

Since you are putting stock in the Marvel handbook, let's expand on this link.

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=livingtribunal26bz.jpg

If you read everything, it acknowledges the Korvac saga, meaning LT was unable to kill Korvac and had to seal him away; it does not acknowledge the retcon of the Beyonder, which we all know happened; it states that the LT allowed the Surfer to become one with the universe for a moment, not turned him into a universe as you stated; it also mentions that the LT's position was nearly usurped by Protege, and it was Scathan the Celestial who saved the day. So, if you want to accept this bio, you have to accept all of it.

Originally posted by Mr Master

It's not the first time Death survives when the most powerful beings in the universe are being killed.
Here Death protects herself and Starfox and Nebula from utter destruction.
And THIS TIME his power with the IG, was applied to her(because she attacked him with the others)and the rest that were there.
Only Death survived, along with those she rescued.


thank you...

Thanos was not directly attacking Death at this point. He was fighting everyone else. Once Death attacked him, he took her and everyone else down at the same time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here the Watcher nor Eternity(single universe)himself could perceive the "Goddess's intentions.
Only Death was able, don't underestimate Death.

Lets go again to the handbook please.

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity21rt.jpg

It says "Dr. Strange won, but although Eternity made him aware of the Goddess' plans, Strange was not allowed to retain that knowledge."

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Question: was there a Phoenix Force in the previous universe?

The Marvel.com bio confuses me.

It says that the Phoenix allowed Eternity to create Galactus.

This is Galactus's origin...on panel, no Phoenix or any indication of it.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

LT was referring to the being he serves, not his own power. We know whomever he serves is above the IG. However, it's questionable if the LT is.

http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig37jm.jpg

And whom ever he serves never shows up. The Living Tribunal deals with all this and it's the Living Tribunal that passes judgement. You can argue that it's talking about TOAA but LT acts for TOAA. Whatever power displayed and judgements passed is the Living Tribunal's doing.

If the LT was so sure of his superior power, he would not have doubted himself in fighting Warlock. And if you want to use your "determining" explanation, it still means that the LT had to calculate his power against Warlock's. Not at all an indication of the LT dwarfing the IG.

This seems to be argued over and over. Yet the IG has not even shown the power to affect the Living Tribunal in way shape or form. Please show some example that the Infinity Gauntlet has in the least affected or overruled the Living Tribunal's power. Examples...

True, but he never acknowledges the LT's superiority.

In that Warlock Chronicles 2 he acknowledges, "It is hard to believe I was ever so brash and arrogant. I certainly do not feel that way these days."

Warlock was a dick throughout the trial. He even knew the outcome and still thought he was right. He went as far as saying it's unproven that LT was more powerful then him even though LT had stopped his outburst on the court.

hmm, i hear loads of praise being heaped on mr master, and i'm quite frankly a little puzzled. and while i applaud his effort, looking over that first page, i see a few things i have an issue with:

1. a complete fallacy -- unintentional no doubt. where? right here:

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not the first time Death survives when the most powerful beings in the universe are being killed.
Here Death protects herself and Starfox and Nebula from utter destruction.
And THIS TIME his power with the IG, was applied to her(because she attacked him with the others)and the rest that were there.
Only Death survived, along with those she rescued.


thank you...

er, you're welcome. AND wrong.

see that little hooded figure in the upper left with starfox? guess who that is . . .? death never took part in the attack on thanos. she was an observer in the fight. hence, he most certainly did NOT turn the ig on her. besides that, none of the cosmics were even defeated in that conflagration in your scan. that was merely the start of the fight -- it was ALL the cosmics starting the war. as i said, i'm sure this was an unintentional slight, but . . . 🙁

2. retcons used as evidence:

Originally posted by Mr Master

Reed wasn't even sure what he was talking about.
In Any case...Not according to the issue of his origin...Eternity made Galactus

THIS origin for galactus has been retconned. the new handbook explictily implicates the pf as a part of galactus's creation. i won't show the scan of the handbook statement -- gs has shown it enough times that i'm sure everyone is already aware of it. the point is pretty clear and going by current marvel material, the above scan is utterly meaningless.

retcon #2 that was referenced dealt with the secret wars beyonder. not really used as evidence of anything (that i could gather) but still -- retconned characters and situations have no place in the debate.

3. THIS little bit:

Originally posted by Mr Master
"Wanda's tamperings were flat out stated to have breached causality. You are warping that which caused the Chaos wave and making a false analogy. Her tamperings breached causality and sent out that wave.

Roma actually states that it is a, and let me allcaps it for you, since apparently you like to ignore things when they prove you wrong

TRANSTEMPORAL TSUNAMI, ORIGINATING FROM EARTH 616

That is what Wanda, caused from the sheer power she was hurling around like a crazy person.

once again, note the word ORIGINATING

That's the Chaos Wave that breached causality. Congrats on yet again warping evidence." anonymous cameo...

i'll not fight gs's fight for him, but i'll answer this one: you still haven't shown anything. your point has been stated over and over again. we KNOW it 'originated' in 616. she was the river, the dam was the walls of 616, the wave was the flood. does the river control the flood? gs's yodelling analogy is also correct. you have no proof that she could have STOPPED the wave, (hence controlled it as it seems she SHOULD have been able to do were she the driving force behind it) or even that she consciously started it. 🙁

4. you claim that thanos with a cosmic cube is 'supreme'. cube beings have been shown -- in canon -- to be well below celestial level. kubik was even afraid to draw the attention of a celestial. not sure what that scan is meant to show . . .

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And whom ever he serves never shows up. The Living Tribunal deals with all this and it's the Living Tribunal that passes judgement. You can argue that it's talking about TOAA but LT acts for TOAA. Whatever power displayed and judgements passed is the Living Tribunal's doing.

This seems to be argued over and over. Yet the IG has not even shown the power to affect the Living Tribunal in way shape or form. Please show some example that the Infinity Gauntlet has in the least affected or overruled the Living Tribunal's power. Examples...

I don't have to, because I'm not claiming that the IG is more powerful than the LT. I'm saying that there is no definitive answer as to who is more powerful. The LT reversed an outburst by Warlock. That's it. Later when they were standing face to face, they were both releasing energy, and everything around them was being destroyed except for them. Neither one of their powers harmed the other.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
In that Warlock Chronicles 2 he acknowledges, "It is hard to believe I was ever so brash and arrogant. I certainly do not feel that way these days."

Warlock was a dick throughout the trial. He even knew the outcome and still thought he was right. He went as far as saying it's unproven that LT was more powerful then him even though LT had stopped his outburst on the court.

Of course he was a dick. What does that have to do with his power? Stopping an outburst of power from the IG is not the same as taking it on directly. Death and Mephisto were unfazed by the power being released by Thanos' battle against the abstracts, and Death was able to protect Eros and Nebula. But when they challenged Thanos directly, they were defeated easily.

i will say this befor i start im a fan of the phoenix!
but im so behind on comics all this power shes she/ its gained is mind bogling! its almost ridiculus
from what i can tell( i have not read up enuff but)
in one of those scan shes standing there about to repair a universe and the others dont bat an eye!!
like its normal! like thay do it every day.
and it did not seem to be much of an effort ! one of the lines says "phoenix work" that leads me to belive thats what thay all do.
clearly jean is not the only phoenix so thay all must be avatars of a greater phoenix force.
is that a dream sequence? if not then i would say the phoenix is multiversal cuz each one of those others behind her would represent a different universe no?
the big bang kind of goes along with the phoenix's rebirth cycle.
lol where els would a new phoenix be born but from but a cosmic egg? 😆

another question is if the living tribunal is charged with being the judge of cosmic events that go on in any given universe is jean just making more work for him?
if you create some thing like a country are you above the law?
would the founding fathers be above the supream courts laws?
mabey the multiverse is a democracy? lol
just some theorys cuz im lost on alot of this !\
great thred though

....justin

Originally posted by leonidas
i'll not fight gs's fight for him, but i'll answer this one: you still haven't shown anything. your point has been stated over and over again. we KNOW it 'originated' in 616. she was the river, the dam was the walls of 616, the wave was the flood. does the river control the flood? gs's yodelling analogy is also correct. you have no proof that she could have STOPPED the wave, (hence controlled it as it seems she SHOULD have been able to do were she the driving force behind it) or even that she consciously started it. 🙁

Lots of people can't stop or control their powers... Cyclops... Rogue...

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]

2. retcons used as evidence:

THIS origin for galactus has been retconned. the new handbook explictily implicates the pf as a part of galactus's creation. i won't show the scan of the handbook statement -- gs has shown it enough times that i'm sure everyone is already aware of it. the point is pretty clear and going by current marvel material, the above scan is utterly meaningless.

Creation? PF now creates Galactus? Maybe you'd like to point me where this was retconned? It hasn't. Phoenix is at most an equal to the other forces of the universe.

http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity18pq.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=galactus13lc.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infinity3uc.jpg

now a couple other things. here's the full confrontation between warlock and lt:

now, i'm willing to follow the handbook's explanation and say that lt is above the ig because that is clearly what it alludes to. but . . . at the time of the debate, before th handbook when THIS was the only on-panel confrontation, there is no way you can say lt was clearly more powerful. nothing could be gained from this, no edge either way. lt and eternity basically guilted warlock into giving it up. aw certainly didn't seem to fear lt or his power and it was up for debate whether lt could have wrested control of it FROM aw by force.

which brings me to another point about lt: that what if. you say DEATH saved him. while it's true, death may have been the grand schemer behind korvac, in no scan that you showed did it say she 'saved' him from lt via her power. supposition, and no more likely or unlikely than gs's supposition -- or my own.

and again on the suject of lt -- he forbade the gems from being brought together. but his judgement didn't last too long . . .

that is from avengers/ultraforce xover. canon as far as i am aware (proof if it isn't please). and the woman is nemesis -- she's the 'infinity being' who comes to life when all SEVEN gems are brought together. unfortunately she is a little nuts, but it's stated she is a being of CREATION. (i believe the thanos quest 'infinity being' has been retconned, as no mention of it is given (that i'm aware of) in any creation bios . . .) unfortunately for her, her power doesn't extend over black knight's sword . . . when she is killed, the ultraverse 'reboots' with her power, and apparently there was a subtle change in the marvel universe as well, but i'm not sure what form it took and i think it has since been pretty well forgotten -- though not forally (i don't think) retconned.

now, agina regarding the ig and it's 'multiversal' power. at best you can claim it is 'selectively' multiversal. jla/avengers is canon and it did not work in the jla's universe. you could claim that means it is not mega-versal, i suppose, but that's pushing it. but, if it was truly multiversal, i really don't understand this:

malestrom's definition is somewhat different from your own on the first page . . . 🙁 how is it that thanos has no control over the anomaly? and he's only a SERVANT of oblivion. and when malestrom was gonna end the universe, guess what? thanos and the ig were gonna die along with it . . . the only ones that COULD save the 'universe'? infinity working through quasar . . . 😬

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Was there any doubt that she was anything but universal?

Not to me.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I've read that. It just fits in with the Phoenix Force being part of creation like Galactus, Eternity, Death, Order, Chaos, etc.

nah, I don't think so, I read it too.

Phoenix is not essential in the Multiverse...I done proved that already.
She is however very essential in that SPECIFIC Universe where she does fit into creation, like the abstracts you mentioned.

When Rachel's mind was whole again, the Phoenix chose to leave this plane of existence -- since Rachel had bonded with the Phoenix, its powers were still Rachel's to command...even when the Phoenix departed from this plane of existence.

Rachel was finally alone and her own again... She didn't share her mind with the Phoenix (she only had its powers), and the false memories implanted by Ahab and Mojo were gone...

Rachel was now a happy and complete woman, and happily rejoined Excalibur. When Jean married Scott it would give Rachel a chance to be born into this timeline. This gave Rachel the courage to sacrifice herself for her team mate Captain Britain, who was lost in time -- Rachel then got lost in time herself!

Rachel ended up 2000 years in the future, where she founded the Askani clan, and challenged that time's ruler - Apocalypse!
As an old woman, Rachel brought Jean and Scott into her timeline to aid her in her fight against Apocalypse.

She told them that she only had fragments of her powers left, since the Phoenix force had left her a long time ago in search of a new host...?
(I find this a bit strange since the Phoenix force had left this plane of existence and Rachel only had its powers -- but I guess that Marvel decided to "forget" this and the Phoenix force was once again a part of the Marvel Universe...)

Jean was with Rachel when Rachel died, and took the name, if not the powers, of the Phoenix -- to honor her brave daughter.

Where is the Phoenix force now? Well, that isn't known -- it hasn't made an appearance since it left Rachel's body in the future (no, I'm not counting the "Phoenix re-born" cross-over between Marvel and Ultraverse -- it was a ridiculous limited series!).

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The big bang occurred and "This is how I came into being" said the Phoenix Force. The PF actually remembers it's birth:

Everthing came into being after the big bang sooner or later.
And still they are only discussing A single big bang out of the millions that have occured...Infinity Being was the real first Universe. It killed itself, Phoenix didn't destroy it or begin it.

which brings me to my final point: the hated hotu

again, you seem to be claiming that the hotu is multiversal and that he eliminated . . . the multiverse at the end? (please correct me if i've misinterpretted your intention) but . . . where do you get multiverse from? how do we know those weren't simply m-bodies? and if they were the real things, are death's realm and atleza's somehow outside the entire multiverse??

he wiped out 'everything' except these places . . .? 😕 why is that easier to believe than simply saying he wiped out 616?

and to further muddy the waters, does this scan mean that dormammu became as powerful as thanos with the hotu?

several times in that ltd series, eternity is mentioned as a 'multiversal' entity. so . . . did dormmy conquer the awe-inspiring 'multi-eternity'??

and in your list of supreme characters, you might also want to add the protege who in guardians of the galaxy #50 actually duplicated lt's powers!! he was saved in the end by a 'lowly' celestial.

this debate will never truly end. tom brevoort himself said he's not a stickler for continuity. the x-verse is generally seen as off-limits to those NOT working on it, so often situations arise where it seems the pf might be used but isn't because of politics. not much to do for that.

i've purposely left out anythng about the pf. gs can handle himself and i don't know the pf all that well. but lots of band-wagon jumping happening 'round here and i thought my bud needed a little representation. 😄