Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Thanos wasn't trying to kill her. You and I know that.

Uhh..you know that...I told you how I see it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Throughout the whole affair, she was angry and displeased that he was now more powerful than her. When she attempted to fight him, she lost along with every other cosmic being. Against, Nebula with the Infinity Gauntlet, she also lost.

Show me the scan of Multi-Death losing to iether and I'll agree.
We're dealing with the Uni-Death aspect of Multi-Death...big difference.
And the aspect of Multi-Death was able to shield Starfox and Nebula from this:

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Death is not above the IG or HOTU.

Multi-Death is...just like Multi-Eternity is above IG..according to both Warlock & one of Multi-Eternity's aspects.
Here Warlock say's that Eternity only loses when his sub-concious desires betray him.

Eternity is a part of a much bigger whole.(Multi-Eternity)
Who do you think he's talking about here?
What does "Sub-" mean: of a smaller size; of lesser quality.

The same goes here:
Here Eternity(single Universe)says if this were not merely a visualization of my Totality, the Gauntlet's Effect would have been NONEXISTENT!
The IG would have no effect on Multi-Eternity.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He overlooked it. Warlock also safe. Does that mean Warlock is more powerful than LT?

This is humor............I recongnize it................

But actually Atleza along with ALL the anchors of the Universes and Multi-Death, exist outside the Multiverse but with in the Cosmic Vortex. Anywhere there is life under the Marvel Mega-verse, Multi-Death is there.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
I don't have to, because I'm not claiming that the IG is more powerful than the LT. I'm saying that there is no definitive answer as to who is more powerful.

No definative answer yet:

- Warlock affected cosmic being except the LT
- LT easily stopped the IG
- IG has yet to even show it could do anything to LT or LT's judgement
- He's kept the gem's ability from working if they were tried to unite
- It was LT that the Gauntlet worked again
- It was shut down yet again by LT after Infinity Wars

Again, can anyone show me where the IG can affect the Living Tribunal in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM?

The LT reversed an outburst by Warlock. That's it.

Your making it sound as if it was nothing. Almost every major cosmic in the MU were servely thrashed. None could do a thing and yet you try and dismiss it? Yeah, I guess Phoenix Force could've done better. LOL

Later when they were standing face to face, they were both releasing energy, and everything around them was being destroyed except for them. Neither one of their powers harmed the other.

Nope. That power eminated from the Infinity Gauntlet. LT stood there just fine while "everything around them was being being destroyed" as you've stated. Again this shows the IG being able to affect everyone and everything except the Living Tribunal.
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig56ys.jpg

Of course he was a dick. What does that have to do with his power?

It has to do with him denying everything from him being an unfit ruler to the Living Tribunal and TOAA's powers being superior to him. His statements were from denial and arrogance not because it was true.

Stopping an outburst of power from the IG is not the same as taking it on directly.

But he did take it directly. As a matter of fact that he's right there along with Eternity (his left) and Order (his right).
http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig10cf.jpg

Death and Mephisto were unfazed by the power being released by Thanos' battle against the abstracts, and Death was able to protect Eros and Nebula. But when they challenged Thanos directly, they were defeated easily. [/B]

Funny, that's contradicts what you said earlier:

Originally posted by celestialdemon
Thanos was not directly attacking Death at this point. He was fighting everyone else. Once Death attacked him, he took her and everyone else down at the same time.

The same applies for Mephisto. He was beaten when he betrayed Thanos

Hmm... Uatu referring to universe - singular.

Originally posted by leonidas
now, agina regarding the ig and it's 'multiversal' power. at best you can claim it is 'selectively' multiversal. jla/avengers is canon and it did not work in the jla's universe. you could claim that means it is not mega-versal, i suppose, but that's pushing it. but, if it was truly multiversal, i really don't understand this:

malestrom's definition is somewhat different from your own on the first page . . . 🙁 how is it that thanos has no control over the anomaly? and he's only a SERVANT of oblivion. and when malestrom was gonna end the universe, guess what? thanos and the ig were gonna die along with it . . . the only ones that COULD save the 'universe'? infinity working through quasar . . . 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is ill...

A little bit of trivia, who is this mighty being.?is that trulley a whatcher?

and mr m, you know how powerful magus was with the gauntlet. i just want to show some thanos duribilty. thanos was not koed in this attack.

Originally posted by leonidas
now a couple other things. here's the full confrontation between warlock and lt:

now, i'm willing to follow the handbook's explanation and say that lt is above the ig because that is clearly what it alludes to. but . . . at the time of the debate, before th handbook when THIS was the only on-panel confrontation, there is no way you can say lt was clearly more powerful. nothing could be gained from this, no edge either way. lt and eternity basically guilted warlock into giving it up. aw certainly didn't seem to fear lt or his power and it was up for debate whether lt could have wrested control of it FROM aw by force.

which brings me to another point about lt: that what if. you say DEATH saved him. while it's true, death may have been the grand schemer behind korvac, in no scan that you showed did it say she 'saved' him from lt via her power. supposition, and no more likely or unlikely than gs's supposition -- or my own.

and again on the suject of lt -- he forbade the gems from being brought together. but his judgement didn't last too long . . .

that is from avengers/ultraforce xover. canon as far as i am aware (proof if it isn't please). and the woman is nemesis -- she's the 'infinity being' who comes to life when all SEVEN gems are brought together. unfortunately she is a little nuts, but it's stated she is a being of CREATION. (i believe the thanos quest 'infinity being' has been retconned, as no mention of it is given (that i'm aware of) in any creation bios . . .) unfortunately for her, her power doesn't extend over black knight's sword . . . when she is killed, the ultraverse 'reboots' with her power, and apparently there was a subtle change in the marvel universe as well, but i'm not sure what form it took and i think it has since been pretty well forgotten -- though not forally (i don't think) retconned.

http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce28cr.jpg

I guess then we can bring this up:
- The Phoenix Force was wounded by two sentient ships from the Ultraverse
- Xorn kills Jean and shatters the Force into billions of pieces
- PF was forced back to reality by a Shi'Ar device

This is the multiversal creator of the Marvel Universe? Greater than Eternity, the Infinity Gauntlet, and the Living Tribunal?

This board is riddled with misinformation. Thanks to this G.S.

Originally posted by bigbran

celestialdemon
Death and Mephisto were unfazed by the power being released by Thanos' battle against the abstracts, and Death was able to protect Eros and Nebula. But when they challenged Thanos directly, they were defeated easily. [/B]

WhiteWitchKing
Funny, that's contradicts what you said earlier:

The same applies for Mephisto. He was beaten when he betrayed Thanos [/B]

🙁 Oops, my bad. Appoligies to celestialdemon.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
LT was referring to the being he serves, not his own power. We know whomever he serves is above the IG. However, it's questionable if the LT is.

So..the fact that LT can go around turning beings into Universes is of no consequence to you?

Besides that he showed superiority when he brought order back to the destruction that Warlock had caused.

Besides that he didn't back down subjectively the way some people make it sound...that it's on panel they were Both flaring up...every other entity there faded away...it was almost on.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
If the LT was so sure of his superior power, he would not have doubted himself in fighting Warlock. And if you want to use your "determining" explanation, it still means that the LT had to calculate his power against Warlock's. Not at all an indication of the LT dwarfing the IG.

I never once said that LT dwarfed the IG.
I always knew what that line meant.
I still stand by my "determining" explanation.
The IG gives you top five status in the multi-verse, those are awesome levels, I guess it had to be gauged, and he still ruled against him after he "determined" if he had the power to

Originally posted by celestialdemon
Since you are putting stock in the Marvel handbook

Your confusing me dude, or your just looking for something to pick at.
This the first time in my life, I use a bio in a debate.
It just flowed well with that part of what I was saying.
It matters to me little if at all, handbooks, I know they'll mix things up, but even they for better or for worse...agreed that Living Tribunal's power surpassed the IG.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Uhh..you know that...I told you how I see it.

Show me the scan of Multi-Death losing to iether and I'll agree.
We're dealing with the Uni-Death aspect of Multi-Death...big difference.
And the aspect of Multi-Death was able to shield Starfox and Nebula from this:

http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00230xu.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00248ha.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00255ox.jpg

Eternity:
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00271qr.jpg

Multi-Death is...just like Multi-Eternity is above IG..according to both Warlock & one of Multi-Eternity's aspects.

Here Warlock say's that Eternity only loses when his sub-concious
desires betray him.

He wasn't refering to Eternity. Warlock was refering to Thanos. This is later confirmed when Nebula grabs the gauntlet while Thanos decided to become one with the universe. When Strange pulls Thanos into his sanctum, Warlock pointed out this incident and previous incident where Thanos subconsciously loses because he knows deep down he was undeserving of omnipotence. Thanos then agrees to help them fight Nebula with the Infinity Gauntlet.

Eternity is a part of a much bigger whole.(Multi-Eternity)
Who do you think he's talking about here?
What does "Sub-" mean: of a smaller size; of lesser quality.

The same goes here:
Here Eternity(single Universe)says if this were not merely a visualization of my Totality, the Gauntlet's Effect would have been NONEXISTENT!
The IG would have no effect on Multi-Eternity.

I not sure on whether or not since Thanos hasn't tried. You may be right on this.

This is humor............I recongnize it................

But actually Atleza along with ALL the anchors of the Universes and Multi-Death, exist outside the Multiverse but with in the Cosmic Vortex. Anywhere there is life under the Marvel Mega-verse, Multi-Death is there. [/B]

So are you saying Multiverse Death is greater than the Living Tribunal? I'll agreed with alot of what you've posted Mr. Masters, but if this is what you're saying then you've got the hiearachy upside down.

...

Originally posted by leonidas
besides that, none of the cosmics were even defeated in that conflagration in your scan. that was merely the start of the fight -- it was ALL the cosmics starting the war. as i said, i'm sure this was an unintentional slight, but . . .

I see..Wut's up leon.

With in the madness of scans and different comics a slip. I should have never included Death to begin with. The Death I refer to is Multi-Death, which took pre-retcon Beyonder alot of his power to erase...so much in fact that he was not able to re-create her out of nothingness. Beyonder could have destroyed the Multiverse at any time, you know this leon, yet Multi-death specifically was the most difficult to kill, or atleast they made it appear that way...but it makes sense...Death is that ultimate opposite force that will always be there.

Even Universes die.
But the Beyonder's feat of erasing Multi-Death was dissed, and that's how that came about.

Originally posted by leonidas
THIS origin for galactus has been retconned. the new handbook explictily implicates the pf as a part of galactus's creation. i won't show the scan of the handbook statement

yuk.. Handbooks.

I like to stick with art, if it's not drawn it didn't happen. Atleast the Beyonder was drawn being retconned.

Was there another comic drawn showing Galactus & Phoenix in the beginning of this one Universe?

Originally posted by leonidas
we KNOW it 'originated' in 616. she was the river, the dam was the walls of 616, the wave was the flood. does the river control the flood? gs's yodelling analogy is also correct.

This all opiniated leon.
There is only one fact...if it were not because Wanda...then the Multiverse would not have crashed. Anybody can go yodel at an avalanch and will come down, lol.
But just anyone can make the breach that cause the chaos wave.

Originally posted by leonidas
you claim that thanos with a cosmic cube is 'supreme'. cube beings have been shown -- in canon -- to be well below celestial level. kubik was even afraid to draw the attention of a celestial. not sure what that scan is meant to show . . .

How can you say I claimed that.
I provided a scan that said that.

As a matter of Fact...Cosmic Cubes can rival the power of the IG, pwrhaps beyond even..
Here Mephisto is telling Thanos about the history of the Cubes...they actually impose limitations on themselves(the containment units)not the entities like kubik and others.

Oh and by the way..when Thanos with willpower exploited that Cosmic Cube to it's fullest..he became the size of a Universe and shrunk down after Marvel destroyed the Cube, which was in some other space unprotected.
First Marvel found the unprotected Cube and destroyed it.

Then Thanos, who had become the size of the Universe..shrunk down and fell unconscious.

Originally posted by leonidas
which brings me to another point about lt: that what if. you say DEATH saved him. while it's true, death may have been the grand schemer behind korvac, in no scan that you showed did it say she 'saved' him from lt via her power. supposition, and no more likely or unlikely than gs's supposition -- or my own.

This is interesting...Death profits from the Universe dying.

And on your other point: This is the closest they come to telling us she saved Korvac from annihilation..How else could she have been his ally.
And it's interesting she pops out on the first scan exactly before LT decides attack.

Originally posted by leonidas
at best you can claim it is 'selectively' multiversal. jla/avengers is canon and it did not work in the jla's universe. you could claim that means it is not mega-versal, i suppose, but that's pushing it. but, if it was truly multiversal, i really don't understand this:

I Never said the IG affected an area outside the multiverse. And JLA universe in not our multiverse.

Originally posted by leonidas
malestrom's definition is somewhat different from your own on the first page . . . 🙁 how is it that thanos has no control over the anomaly? and he's only a SERVANT of oblivion. and when malestrom was gonna end the universe, guess what? thanos and the ig were gonna die along with it . . . the only ones that COULD save the 'universe'? infinity working through quasar . . . 😬

He wasn't even real. But what's your pick on the IG? an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier..and you know what that can do..you do remeber that from scans don't you..

Here Quasar tries to use the UN on Magus who has an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet...Quasar was actually able to set it off, the same device Reed wiped out and remade the Multiverse with. and Magus controlled those energies and negated Quasar with them. Absolute control..they engulf Quasar evenly.

Originally posted by leonidas
again, you seem to be claiming that the hotu is multiversal and that he eliminated . . . the multiverse at the end? (please correct me if i've misinterpretted your intention) but . . . where do you get multiverse from? are death's realm and atleza's somehow outside the entire multiverse??

The problem is you don't know what the Multiverse looks like from the inside.
You think it's just space and one universe transitions into another...but in fact, though the Multiverse can manifest itself as a whole...it exists apart from it's individual Universes with in the Cosmic Vortex.
Obviously this does not affect the relationship between aspect and totality.

See those little purple balls, thats where atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...the Multiverse are the Bigger balls obviously...untouched by space or time


First Warlock is allowed to enter this place...the Cosmic Vortex.

Now observe Warlock navigating this realm in--between Universes.

Originally posted by leonidas
and to further muddy the waters, does this scan mean that dormammu became as powerful as thanos with the hotu?
several times in that ltd series, eternity is mentioned as a 'multiversal' entity. so . . . did dormmy conquer the awe-inspiring 'multi-eternity'??

I would like to read that series myself, title and issue?
By the way I had the awe-inspiring 'multi-eternity' beneath IG and UN and Abraxas and Multi-Death. So.. I don't know what your point.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Eternity is a part of a much bigger whole.(Multi-Eternity)
Who do you think he's talking about here?
What does "Sub-" mean: of a smaller size; of lesser quality.

I don't mean to be a smart-ass Mr. M, but....

Dude i just notice that point with the subconscious....and err 😐 ....you know, subconcious refers to a state of mind, you know, like dreams, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subconscious

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Creation? PF now creates Galactus? Maybe you'd like to point me where this was retconned? It hasn't. Phoenix is at most an equal to the other forces of the universe.

http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity18pq.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=galactus13lc.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infinity3uc.jpg

cool. it's what i get for NOT searching for the scan. i recalled it incorrectly so i'll concede you MOST of the point. however, i'd like your interpretation of this:

"In the dying moments of the previus universe the forrce saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling eternity to preserve galan and ensuring his re-creation as galactus."

even according to your scan the pf seems pretty well implicated in the birth of galactus -- were it NOT for the pf, g would NOT have existed AND, apparently, 'all existence' would have ceased. now, g's universe was ALREADY dying, so that couldn't have been the 'existence' referenced. did they mean the multiverse as a whole??

either way, the pf is still clearly implicated in g's birth and existence. it was then 're-born' as in, the same force was born again. doens't that also make the force multiversal? and then the tower. as described in the bio, it too seemed to indicate the force had power to affect the multiverse as a whole. i'd like to hear what you think. i'm NOT a pf expert, but it does seem to be able to exert power over the multiverse and exist in other universes. what else is multiversal to mean?

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. it's what i get for NOT searching for the scan. i recalled it incorrectly so i'll concede you MOST of the point. however, i'd like your interpretation of this:

"In the dying moments of the previus universe the forrce saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling eternity to preserve galan and ensuring his re-creation as galactus."

even according to your scan the pf seems pretty well implicated in the birth of galactus -- were it NOT for the pf, g would NOT have existed AND, apparently, 'all existence' would have ceased. now, g's universe was ALREADY dying, so that couldn't have been the 'existence' referenced. did they mean the multiverse as a whole??

Originally posted by leonidas
either way, the pf is still clearly implicated in g's birth and existence. it was then 're-born' as in, the same force was born again. doens't that also make the force multiversal?

Originally posted by leonidas
and then the tower. as described in the bio, it too seemed to indicate the force had power to affect the multiverse as a whole. i'd like to hear what you think. i'm NOT a pf expert, but it does seem to be able to exert power over the multiverse and exist in other universes. what else is multiversal to mean?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I see..Wut's up leon.

This all opiniated leon.
There is only one fact...if it were not because Wanda...then the Multiverse would not have crashed. Anybody can go yodel at an avalanch and will come down, lol.
But just anyone can make the breach that cause the chaos wave.

How can you say I claimed that.
I provided a scan that said that.

As a matter of Fact...Cosmic Cubes can rival the power of the IG, pwrhaps beyond even..
Here Mephisto is telling Thanos about the history of the Cubes...they actually impose limitations on themselves(the containment units)not the entities like kubik and others.

Oh and by the way..when Thanos with willpower exploited that Cosmic Cube to it's fullest..he became the size of a Universe and shrunk down after Marvel destroyed the Cube, which was in some other space unprotected.
First Marvel found the unprotected Cube and destroyed it.

Then Thanos, who had become the size of the Universe..shrunk down and fell unconscious.

hey bro, 😉

know who they are talking about?

again, your scan of thanos is ancient. things change, my friend. you need to use the more current info. at the time, cubes were the 'in thing'. apparently marvel changed their minds . . . again. 😬 c learly they are below celestials and PLENTY of other 'cosmics' . . .

as far as my opinion about wanda -- i never claimed it was anything BUT opinion. x made a good post regarding it's 'disputeablility'. and it IS disputeable. the only issue i had was the way you phrased your own OPINION by making it sound as though there could be no other explanation. i'm perfectly willing to allow for the possibility that you MAY be right. then again, she may have been a careless arson, her power the match and the wave the forest fire that resulted. 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is interesting...Death profits from the Universe dying.

And on your other point: This is the closest they come to telling us she saved Korvac from annihilation..How else could she have been his ally.
And it's interesting she pops out on the first scan exactly before LT decides attack.

cool. so she never says she saved him from korvac or shows it. so that silly scene can then be interpretted in ways other than saying death saved him . . . 😉