Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by illadelph12
Not exactly.

LT is commissioned to protect all of the universes within the multi-verse. When the 616's cycle is up and it's time for Phoenix to destroy and recreate, LT's role in that particular universe is usurped (he's no longer needed).

That doesn't however mean that, say, universe 565324.1 doesn't need LT, and he'd still have duties to carry out there.

I think the 616 LT M-Body just gets recycled along with the universe, or maybe just 'decommissioned', because it's no longer needed.

Going by this then it could be that every abstract's M-bodies is replaced and not the concepts themselves. Prosh if he's right then the "forces such as entropy, oblivion, death, life - remain constant through any big bang."

One of the infinites literally grabed Eternity and was about to crush him.

so does tne whole multiverse start over when theres a big bang?

Once again: Me>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone including Phoenix and TOAA

😎

but the strebgt rating for the infinates is like a 4. see weird.

Originally posted by bigbran
but the strebgt rating for the infinates is like a 4. see weird.

Strength rating for me is a billion and a half. 😎

Yeah the bio things are stupid how can it be that the infinites are so weak as stated by the bio but they were shown to be more powerful than eternity.

Infinites come from outside the multiverse so they pwn all.

http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infinites2uy.jpg

apparently the bio has a mistake as the girds should read 7 for all except fighting skills.

yes i like the part where it said "one infinate sacrificed his life to replace the planet they had destroyed" wow top dogs.

Yeah they had to end the mini somehow it would be pretty lame if they destroyed everyone.

Note: Team of heros always win.

Also they make creatures the size of planets so yeah...when you wiegh that in the writer screwed up.

Oh well they still pwn all. He died willingly no one opposed them or posed any real threat to them.

Originally posted by bigbran
so does tne whole multiverse start over when theres a big bang?

Don't think so. I don't see why the multiverse needs to start over. The entire multiverse is created once and has no cycle like a universe.

Galactus was created from the previous universe and is part of the cycle. What his role is, Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, and other cosmics to the multiverse's creation or even the very first big bang of the 616 is unknown.

But the multiverse had to have a beginning. Each universe had to have a beginning before the cycle starts. Concepts such as death, life, ressurection, chaos, order, love, hate, oblivion, don't just exist without a universe, without a multiverse.

So who created the MU and the concepts such as life, death, oblivion, time, space? Marvel says TOAA created the MU.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

And yet according to the Handbook the Infinity Gauntlet derives its power from the Big Bang

Yes. According to the Handbook the Phoenix Force was from the big bang as well. She didn't create it, she came from it. And no where does it say that was is the creator of the Marvel Universe.

http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixforce18cl.jpg

What's this? Where was it said the the Phoenix created Eternity or the MU?

http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eternity18pq.jpg

Even this confirms it. The big bang happened and she was birthed from it. "I want you to understand...this is how I came into being."

So, how does this put any money in your pockets?

After reading this thread Mr. Master you scare me.alien_dance

Originally posted by illadelph12
Also, Phoenix didn't make Mastermind one with the universe, per se, as much as she gave him a glimpse of her scope of power and caused him to become catatonic from sensory overload.

I wouldn't equate that with LT granting Surfer momentary Godhood. It was more of a cosmic induced epileptic seizure in Mastermind's case.

But that's simply my personal interpretation and opinion.

Nope. Its actually stated she put him in touch with the universe and that his mind spanned reality, that at Phoenixes touch he was transformed into a god. Its actually spelled out for readers therefore there is no reason to or justification in interpreting the scene differently. Similarly LT stated that he was going to give SS a connection to the infinite like he had. He said the experience would provide SS with temporary godhood.

As aforementioned the only difference was that Phoenix did it as an attack and so abruptly enforced the experience on Mastermind. LT wanted to give SS an insight into the universe and so his integration into said experience would have been done with alot more care.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Bottomline:

You still were unable to SHOW Phoenix Creating A Universe.

You still were unable to SHOW Phoenix destroying or remaking the Multiverse.

And you STILL are unable to show Phoenix even with a Multiversal FEAT..as I just disproved your last attempt at glory with the Excalibur Tower..

Garbage. Bottom line is as per canon Phoenix manifests as the Big Bang. This manifestation results in the formation of reality. Ive provided many current continuity scans showing Phoenix being reborn as the Big Bang and captions stating that Phoenix is the spark that spawns creation. I have also shown you scans of the Phoenix being stated by captions to have this role in alternate realities as well. Anyone who has read New X-men and Endsong will know that there is a central Phoenix Consciousness that resides in the White Hot Room and this commands all the avatars/Phoenix manifestations of the different realities. One of the avatars talked of watching the megasystems and how he witnessed the separation of 616 in New X-men 154 and then the Phoenix Consciousness talked of how the fixing of broken universes was "Phoenix work". Not only does that show that the avatars survey the multiverse from the White Hot Room, but it also shows you that is the role of the Phoenixes to fix realities. The Phoenix Consciousness role is multiversal spanning. 😉

As for not showing Phoenix destroying or making a multiverse, well I have shown nearly half a dozen realities where the Phoenix is regarded as the force that created said realities. Plus Phoenix has performed multiversal level feats and has shown she has the power to contain a power which can and has destroyed the multiverse before so I think that points pretty much dismissed. On top of that you have no proof that the UN did actually remake the multiverse. You have nothing but a few inconclusive scans and your OPINION on what they show. None of the scans state your point and none of them conclusively depict your point. Really not good enough im afraid.

You seem to have bypassed not only the information contained within your own scans, but also the info contained within mine. Phoenix projected the tower, ensuring it existed in every reality of the multiverse, therefore making a permamnent energy matrix. She applied her power across every reality of the multiverse simultaneously. That’s a multiversal feat sonny.

In addition to that how many time do I have to tell you that the M’kraan crystal was retconned into the multiversal nexus of realities during Legion Quest over a decade ago. That as a side effect promoted Phoenixes feat to multiversal status im afraid. The best feats in Marvel still belong to the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
GalacticStorm my only dissapointments have been these:

1) You clearly [b]LIED about an Infinity Gauntlet retcon when we argued about it in the ALE vs IG thread.

2) You NEVER displayed PROOF that the Pheonix Force is multiversal, when you always claim it is. Not ONCE.

❌ My Faith in you has diminished my freind. [/B]

How have i lied about the IG retcon? Have you actually read this thread? 😕

If you were to actually read the posts and analyse the information given in the scans then you would see that it is current continuity that Phoenix is reborn every creation cycle as the Big Bang. The Big Bang is no longer attributed to the Infinity Being. The Ig draws its power from the Big Bang, as stated on panel and in the bio i posted. The Infinity Being as Leonidas highlighted has been demoted to a being that was spawned from creation. I have lied about not a thing. You however have had the wool pulled over your eyes. Read and analyse the scans properly dont allow someone to tell you what they thinks going on in them.

Anyone who has read New X-men will have seen the avatars talk of how they watch over the multiverse and how the fixing of broken universes is Phoenix work. The point is actually stated on panel. You have been fooled. Think for yourself dont follow others blindly.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
According to Prosh mankind replaces the abstracts and NOT the Phoenix: "Your fragile species (mankind) will replace them and remake the very structure of reality."

But Prosh is wrong about the abstracts "not allowing that to happen." (This will be proven later)

Notice that Prosh wants to act now "to protect your species from their wrath." Again humanity is the key - not the Phoenix Force.

]

As I have always said humanity will evolve into a race that will replace the abstracts however it is a process brought about and driven by the Phoenix power. You seem to be posting under the delusion that ive said that the Phoenix replaces the abstracts with itself.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Well, well it looks like Jean chose the Phoenix Force because it wanted "what all cosmic entities want - to attain an intergral role in the unraveling and weaving of the UNIVERSAL tapestry." Notice that Death is taking about the universe and not the multiverse. What...what about the PF? I thought Galacticstorm says PF is the creator of the MU. Why is Prosh talking about humanity instead?

Of course Death is talking about the universe as this comic is pertaining to 616. There are many Phoenix manifestations at universal level, each one embodied by an avatar however there is only one Phoenix Consciousness.

Id hazard a guess and say Prosh is talking about humanity because the comics about them.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Death too confirms the unlimited potential of mankind to evolve and eventually replace the abstracts. And choosing the Phoenix is PAVING THE ROAD for an advancement in the human species. By Jean choosing the Phoenix it merely paves a road to advancement.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7508345098.jpg&s=x11

Again youre posting under some delusion pertaining to what ive said. Ive always said humanity will evolve into a race that will replace the abstracts. The important part however is that the process is brought about by Phoenix. Im glad you highlighted the part about the Phoenix power paving the way for this process. Also notice how while the other threats visualized by Death are played down, Jean as Phoenix is said to be the threat the fundamental forces most feared a “legitimate threat to reality” therefore suggesting that the threats portrayed by Death were not.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Even Prosh says as much. Phoenix merely shows a human how to weave the fabric of the UNIVERSE and by that he means evolution. He also remarks that the abstracts REMAIN CONSTANT through any big bang. Which means the Phoenix Force DOES NOT create them after every big bang.

What's this? Humankind will evolve and replace the abstracts? According to this, the abstracts will destroy all life to prevent this from happening.

But if evolution happens, the universe still comes to an end? How could this be? Lol (wait and you'll see)

See now this is where it all falls apart im afraid. Have you actually read the above two scans? Allow me to fill you in on a lil sumthin. Potential does not equate to realization. While humanity has the potential to evolve into this advanced race that will herald the end of the universal cycle, the potential is not realized and was not set into motion until the involvement of the Phoenix power. Here Prosh has taken Jeans minds back in time to where she made that fateful decision to get involved with the Phoenix (please bear in mind peeps that this is 86 retcon era interpretation here) and he flat out states to her that if Jean had not bonded with the Phoenix power then this advancement of humanity, the whole process the Stranger feared WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE.

Does that or does that not tell you that as per my previous comments, the Phoenix Force is the power which brings about the replacement of the abstracts and LT?

As for Proshs comments relating to the abstracts surviving through a Big Bang well that’s at odds with all other sources regarding the destruction of the universe. Also in Eternitys bio you will see it stated that he came into being after the universe was born:

He is an embodiment of the universe a reflection of it. The destruction of a universe would result in the absence of the concepts he embodies. Prosh in that instance is wrong. In fact both he and the Stranger are wrong on a number of things as readers later found out in the comic when Eternity clarified things. However more on that later.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What's this? Even the Stranger confirms humanity's importance in the universe. He goes as far as saying "beter species are far more deserving." Last I checked the Phoenix Force is not a species (unless the Stranger is refering to a bunch of flaming tucans flying about the MU that's never been seen before).

YET AGAIN, it's humanity that the dust (swept upon a solar breeze) refusing to ackowledge they are the hurricane. And what is Jean Grey? LOL Grey is merely the "Touch stone" where as Bobby is the "potentiality." LOL Where does it say the Phoenix Force? By touching the PF, Jean merely became a standard, a basis, a reference point: a touchstone. Bobby is the "potentially" of that evolution by man to abstract hood. Each of them are merely representatives (or vanguards) of the change (acclimation) of the planet's genetic enhancement.

What exactly are you trying to prove here. You’ve confused yourself somewhere down the line. Youre continually emphasizing humanitys role in this process. Its almost as if youre trying to say ive made some claim to the contrary. Youre completely missing the point with this. While humanity is the race which goes on to supplant the abstracts roles and positions in the universe, it is the Phoenixes involvement which allows this potential to be realized. Therefore you’ve changed nothing.

Also by proclaiming Jean to be the touchstone of the group because of her connection with the Phoenix Force Stranger is further hyping up its power as hes saying she is the reference point for which all the others will be measured and evaluated against. She is already on that cosmic level. A level at which one can surpass and supplant the abstracts as the others will be able to do when the process is complete This being in line with Deaths earlier comments, regarding Jean being the most feared and a legitimate threat to the fundamental forces.