Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Stranger confirms the Phoenix Force as merely part of the cycle of the universe, "the ressurection force is both a beginning and an end. Life beggets death begets life." So what does this mean?

The Phoenix Force shows Jean what mankind will EVENTUALLY become...Eternity...after MILLIONS of YEARS of exponential increases in EVOLUTIONARY GROWTH. And again narration refers "mankind's role as the universe's EVENTUAL destroyer and savior." LOL. Man destroys and saves the universe not the PF.

Do you not see the contradiction here? I certainly do, along with an unfortunate misinterpretation. Unfortunate because it has resulted in you wasting your time.

As you have highlighted and as you seem to accept here, the Stranger confirms the Phoenix Force to be both the BEGINNING AND THE END, of the cycle. He doesn’t say the Phoenix is merely a part of the cycle, that’s just something you’ve added. He marks it out as the cycles origin and endpoint. A notion that Eternity later confirms.

The Phoenix Force shows Jean nothing. It is a visualization created by the Stranger. (The fact that it comes out of Strangers chest should have proved to be a slight giveaway. ) After having stated Phoenixes role in the process the Stranger goes on to visualize it. He shows Jean a Phoenix Force engulfed D.N.A chain emerging from the planet Earth slowly forming into Eternity. All of this completely in line with Death and Prosh’s earlier comments regarding mankind having the potential which the Phoenix power could make reality.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Stranger explains that his plan is to control the evolution of man which will inevitably mean result in controling Eternity. PF has nothing to do with his plans.

Stranger doesn't even know "how one species can evolve into Eternity...but he accepts it." Eternity intervenes and speaks only to Jean (Strange doesn't know). He and the other abstracts "convened to clarify OUR POSITION to you." LOL. So what do they think of human evolution? What's PF role? Well..let's see.

Stranger has already shown us that the Phoenix power is that which brings about the beginning and the end of a universes cycle. He then went on to talk to Jean about how controlling human evolution could give someone control over reality and the fundamental forces. How is this process achieved? Via the Phoenix power. As stated by Death and Eternity and as shown by Strangers visualization.

This isn’t the first time the Phoenix power has been linked to evolution. In the Ultimate Universe the Phoenix manifestation is thought to be the power that drives evolution:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13416024680.jpg&s=f5

Dark Phoenixes actions were said to serve evolution:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509384335.jpg&s=x11

Jean says in New X-men that the Phoenix burns away what doesn’t work and in both New X-men and Endsong Dark Phoenix talks of burning away evolutionary dead-ends.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209090372.jpg&s=f5

Phoenix avatars are referred to as the “ultimate mutation,” Which is in line with Jean being referred to as the touchstone by the Stranger and Prosh. She is the endpoint by which all the other ascended will be measured against. The powers manifestation within Jean Grey was said to have evolved her exponentially by the Watcher:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209123448.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209194523.jpg&s=f5

At the end of the mini Eternity speaks to Jean and clarifies the abstracts position and the Phoenixes role in the process:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7511343068.jpg&s=x11

So not only does Eternity mark Phoenix out as the initiator of the creation cycle (in line with the multiple sources stating it is the Big Bang) but as already established in the title it is the Phoenixes power that realizes the potential seeded in humanity by the Celestials. Eternity is saying that while Stranger thought that the abstracts would be against their destined replacement, he was wrong and they instead not only accept it, but also encourage said process by helping to bring about humanity a race whose potential will be brought about by the Phoenix power.

You keep trying to downplay Phoenix by saying it was the abstracts who created humanity and while that is true, Phoenixes manifestation as the Big Bang not only results in the subsequent formation of the abstracts themselves, but as the Big Bang all matter and energy within a universe stem from the Phoenix anyway so ultimately it is all possible because of Phoenix.

Listen to what Roma and Death have to say about the Force:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509355229.jpg&s=x11

And please note how they mark out this role as an eternal pattern, a part of the natural order. What they have to say about Phoenix is in line with Eternity, Strangers and Proshs comments in X-men forever.

All of this has precedence:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/741443489.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13616261699.jpg&s=f5

Heres Death talking of how creation is Phoenixes handiwork:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7511241433.jpg&s=x11

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the mini Eternity speaks to Jean and clarifies the abstracts position and the Phoenixes role in the process:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7511343068.jpg&s=x11

So not only does Eternity mark Phoenix out as the initiator of the creation cycle (in line with the multiple sources stating it is the Big Bang) but as already established in the title it is the Phoenixes power that realizes the potential seeded in humanity by the Celestials. Eternity is saying that while Stranger thought that the abstracts would be against their destined replacement, he was wrong and they instead not only accept it, but also encourage said process by helping to bring about humanity a race whose potential will be brought about by the Phoenix power.

You keep trying to downplay Phoenix by saying it was the abstracts who created humanity and while that is true, Phoenixes manifestation as the Big Bang not only results in the subsequent formation of the abstracts themselves, but as the Big Bang all matter and energy within a universe stem from the Phoenix anyway so ultimately it is all possible because of Phoenix.

Listen to what Roma and Death have to say about the Force:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509355229.jpg&s=x11

And please note how they mark out this role as an eternal pattern, a part of the natural order. What they have to say about Phoenix is in line with Eternity, Strangers and Proshs comments in X-men forever.

All of this has precedence:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/741443489.jpg&s=x11

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13616261699.jpg&s=f5

Heres Death talking of how creation is Phoenixes handiwork:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7511241433.jpg&s=x11

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for Proshs comments relating to the abstracts surviving through a Big Bang well that’s at odds with all other sources regarding the destruction of the universe. Also in Eternitys bio you will see it stated that he came into being after the universe was born:

He is an embodiment of the universe a reflection of it. The destruction of a universe would result in the absence of the concepts he embodies. Prosh in that instance is wrong. In fact both he and the Stranger are wrong on a number of things as readers later found out in the comic when Eternity clarified things. However more on that later.

AHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!

This is AMAZING...

NOW PROSH and the STRANGER are WRONG...wait....AHAHAHAAHAAHAHA!!!!

You come out with their scans and the Death scan...ALOT of TALK...TALK.....TALK...

When WHAT their talking about goes your way....you use it as evidence and God's word...Phoenix is the only legimate threat....the "image" of cosmics bowing(which was the Stranger at this point)...blah blah blah.

Now your proven WRONG...and what do you say?

"In fact both he and the Stranger are wrong on a number of things as readers later found out"...these are the same guys your using in your defense....LOL...and it's all just talk anyway.

What happen to the man who disputed my ON PANEL scan of Beyonder being Millions of Times More Powerful than the rest of the Multiverse Combined.....LOL
And mind you that was the actually the narration column...not coming from a character's mouth...so it's couldn't be the Beyonder boasting...or does the Company and Writer boast too....then what's the point of believing ANY of it.

Here:
On panel...they actually drew the energy flow of ALL this power, coursing into his body while the narrator is explaining it...clearly.

But this is hyperbole and un-exceptable...AHAHAAHAHA!!!

Now... JUST a conversation between......WHOEVER....has to be excepted...Oh! wait....parts of the conversation that cater to you argument, must be excepted...parts of that SAME conversation that do NOT agree with, should be disregraded...mind you, JUST a conversation...no action...In Beyonder's scan atleast something is happening..

Too funny...

Not to mention that you lied about the Excalibur Tower..and I saw you responded to that yet again in defense of your lie...your something else...it's as though your oblivious of these actions...

Observe in the next post how far you go into your lie...

You make a claim about the Phoenix Force being Multi-versal...yet you can't present one scan where she has proven to HAVE the power to be such...

This is your claim.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
and as for the multiversal bit the containing of a multiversal power, the multiversal energy matrix feat

This is how I disproved this claim.

This the TRUE story of the Excalibur Lighthouse(Tower)
from on panel scans.

Necrom, and his two pupils Feron and Merlyn, discovered energy fields. They realized that these energy fields were doorways between worlds -- all worlds existed as reflections of each other in the Multiverse.

Everytime the parallel worlds were aligned they created an extremely powerful energy matrix. Necrom wanted the power of this energy matrix for himself...

Necrom, Feron, and Merlyn traveled to the prime world of all these parallel worlds -- that was of course "our" world, also known as 616...

On our earth they discovered a tower that functioned as a doorway to the other worlds... Necrom & Co. wanted to have this tower (this doorway) at all earths in all parallel realities, via the Energy Matrix...

but to do this they needed something stronger than themselves...to project the Tower on every earth quick enough, before the Energy Matrix misaligned..

At a moment when all the parallel worlds were aligned, Feron made the Phoenix force project the tower throughout the Multiverse, and now each world had a doorway to the other parallel worlds.

Ok...the story is all there with the scans...everyone can see you were wrong about her "multiversal" feat...but...you persist....with this response...which is now a lie. Because you saw clearly you was wrong...so now you make something up to give Phoenix the feat anyway...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The energy was already there but Phoenix linked it together and formed a constant stable flow of it throughout the multiverse. Hence my statement that Phoenix created an energy matrix that flows around the multiverse

😮bserve everyone:
This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
It clearly says 'when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a simple feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

That's it...it should be over...you should stay out of it and hope it was not seen...but ....nooooo.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
prior to Phoenix's involvement there was just ambient energy which aligned periodically. Phoenixes feat resulted in a permanently linked energy matrix which flows through the multiverse

:What REALLY happened was this:

While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had JUMPED INTO the Energy Matrix...

He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.

MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.
You would think it would surely end there...but in fact folks...he responded to this...and continued his claims EVEN after he read and saw ALL this...yes...I know.....still.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix projected the tower, ensuring it existed in every reality of the multiverse, therefore making a permamnent energy matrix. She applied her power across every reality of the multiverse simultaneously.

I've figured it out...how it works...his LIES...
He mixes truth with fabrication....confuses you...then explains his ass off...you end lost in essays he pumps you with...just look here in this Fourth LIE:

"Phoenix projected the tower, ensuring it existed in every reality of the multiverse"
Which is true...via the Energy Matrix when the Interfaces are aligned.
"therefore making a permamnent energy matrix"
And this is a LIE...We all saw the Energy Matrix forms on it's own when the Multiversal Interfaces align on their own aswell, we also saw that it was MERLYN that made it a permanent flow.
"She applied her power across every reality of the multiverse simultaneously"
Again LYING...all she did was project the single tower/lighthouse which through the Energy Matrix(the power that was applied)and all the doors open to the Multiverse(the Interfaces Aligned)was possible.

Nice sig bud. Thank Mr. Pittman.

GS you cant beat this guy just leave it now we all already know the phoenix isn't as great as you want everyone to think,And people call superman fanboys bad.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok...the story is all there with the scans...everyone can see you were wrong about her "multiversal" feat...but...you persist....with this response...which is now a lie. Because you saw clearly you was wrong...so now you make something up to give Phoenix the feat anyway...

"Phoenix linked it together and formed a constant flow"......This is a LIE....
"Phoenix created an energy matrix that flows around the multiverse".....This is another LIE...

😮bserve everyone:
This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
It clearly says 'when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a simple feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

That's it...it should be over...you should stay out of it and hope it was not seen...but ....nooooo.

"Phoenixs feat resulted in a permanently linked energy matrix which flows through the multiverse"......and this is yet one another LIE...that's 3 lies in one subject.

:What REALLY happened was this:

While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had JUMPED INTO the Energy Matrix...

He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.

MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.
You would think it would surely end there...but in fact folks...he responded to this...and continued his claims EVEN after he read and saw ALL this...yes...I know.....still.

I've figured it out...how it works...his LIES...
He mixes truth with fabrication....confuses you...then explains his ass off...you end lost in essays he pumps you with...just look here in this Fourth LIE:

"Phoenix projected the tower, ensuring it existed in every reality of the multiverse"
Which is true...via the Energy Matrix when the Interfaces are aligned.
"therefore making a permamnent energy matrix"
And this is a LIE...We all saw the Energy Matrix forms on it's own when the Multiversal Interfaces align on their own aswell, we also saw that it was MERLYN that made it a permanent flow.
"She applied her power across every reality of the multiverse simultaneously"
Again LYING...all she did was project the single tower/lighthouse which through the Energy Matrix(the power that was applied)and all the doors open to the Multiverse(the Interfaces Aligned)was possible.

mm, if you're so absolutely sure the pf is NOT a multiversal entity, how do you reconcile the whitehot room and the consciousness that appears to reside there?

none of the bios appear to state (i don't THINK) that there are multiversal counterparts to some of the universal concepts. there's no mention of multi-eternity (is there??) in the bio, no multi-infinity, etc . . .

i'm curious why you're so sure there is no multi-pf, given the existence of the whitehot room and all the other avatars.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How do I explain the White Hot Room? I can't explain it like I can't explain Sis-neg (Genesis spelled backwards) being the god of 616 during Dr. Strange, the suicide of the Infinity Being which supposedly created the universe as well, that demon thing that talked to Reed, and other's who have created the universe. Supposedly that is the core of creation but of what creation? It's just another mystery of the MU.

As for the the fixing of that universe I don't see how repairing a universe is out of the reach of Eternity, Infinity, Death, or other abstracts. Eternity is universe, but I have no doubt that he couldn't journey to other universe or fix it. Even skyfathers and demons from terran patheons have wrecked a galaxy at least. The living emobiment of the universe is leagues above skyfather level.

Dude your right....Now I that saw that clearly...she didn't remake 616...she repaired it.

nice...

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How do I explain the White Hot Room? I can't explain it like I can't explain Sis-neg (Genesis spelled backwards) being the god of 616 during Dr. Strange, the suicide of the Infinity Being which supposedly created the universe as well, that demon thing that talked to Reed, and other's who have created the universe. Supposedly that is the core of creation but of what creation? It's just another mystery of the MU.

As for the the fixing of that universe I don't see how repairing a universe is out of the reach of Eternity, Infinity, Death, or other abstracts. Eternity is universe, but I have no doubt that he couldn't journey to other universe or fix it. Even skyfathers and demons from terran patheons have wrecked a galaxy at least. The living emobiment of the universe is leagues above skyfather level.

Here's Surtur forging the Twilight Sword from a galaxy:

but, just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it can be dismissed either. 😬

and you think eternity could fix a SEPERATE universe? why would you think that? they are the embodiment of their OWN universe. i'd not think their power would transfer to other universes. assume for a moment eternity DID leave his own universe. what would be left behind?? just opinion, of course, but it seems to stand to reason. pf seems to be needed when eternity CANNOT repair itself. gs's scan seems to show one instance, in guardians of the galaxy giraud also cured eternity of a disease that was killing it. interesting to note the pf fought off the disease that even eternity was unable to fight off.

Originally posted by leonidas
mm, if you're so absolutely sure the pf is NOT a multiversal entity, how do you reconcile the whitehot room and the consciousness that appears to reside there?

none of the bios appear to state (i don't THINK) that there are multiversal counterparts to some of the universal concepts. there's no mention of multi-eternity (is there??) in the bio, no multi-infinity, etc . . .

i'm curious why you're so sure there is no multi-pf, given the existence of the whitehot room and all the other avatars.

There is only the pf...she's the one that can repair a universe. Jean.

Avatars are way below her...

And leon what's the point of replaying my quote entirely if your question has nothing to do with it.
You can delete the rest and just take the heading.

I mean you ask a question about pf and multiversal and yet you ignore that I just proved that she does not have a multiversal feat.

That's what your boy used as his evidence for a PF Multiversal feat...but it wasn't...and he lied on top of that...SO why do you disregard that?

If you read the post you Must know this.

Is there any other feat? no.

So with the odds stacked up against Phoenix...one should ask you...why do you..think she's multiversal...what feat on panel...has demonstrated multiversal scale?

Lurker here. Read this entire thread.

IMO the Phoenix Force is multiversal. Why? All these little details just complicate thing. The answer is a very simple one. The White Phoenix of the Crown operates within the White Hot Room, which resides within the M'Krann Crystal, which is the 'nexus of all realities' which is already proven. Doesnt that already suggest that she can operate on a multiversal scale? If she can have total telekinetic control at the atomic level of universe 616 why not of other universes and realities while within the nexus of all reality itself?

Originally posted by Mr Master
There is only the pf...she's the one that can repair a universe. Jean.

Avatars are way below her...just like Eternity(single universe)is way below Multi.

And leon what's the point of replaying my quote entirely if your question has nothing to do with it.
You can delete the rest and just take the heading.

I mean you ask a question about pf and multiversal and yet you ignore that I just proved that she does not have a multiversal feat.

That's what your boy used as his evidence for a PF Multiversal feat...but it wasn't...and he lied on top of that...SO why do you disregard that?

If you read the post you Must know this.

I there any other feat? no.

So with the odds stacked up against Phoenix...one should ask you...why do you..think she's multiversal...what feat on panel...has demonstrated multiversal scale?

your whole post was in reference to the pf's 'multiversal' feat, so i quoted it. what's the big deal? 😕

anyway, answer me this in reference to the tower incident: could it have been accomplished without the pf and what was the purpose of the tower? (your scan doesn't work -- the one where pf is at the base of the tower)

re: your multiversal level feat -- you don't consider the m'krann crystal feat multiversal? perhaps it happened inadvertently with the retcon, but still . . .

i also found this on quickseek (i don't know if it's an editable database . . .)

<<Later, Jean learned that not only was she the physical embodiment of the Phoenix Force, but she was the "White Phoenix of the Crown" and as such, had the power to control entire timelines and travel to other dimensions by creating portals between realities. Also, it was revealed that Phoenix's mind resonates across the multiverse, and may be a nexus of realities. >>

it's obviously not just gs's interpretation.

Originally posted by lightning_king
Lurker here. Read this entire thread.

IMO the Phoenix Force is multiversal. Why? All these little details just complicate thing. The answer is a very simple one. The White Phoenix of the Crown operates within the White Hot Room, which resides within the M'Krann Crystal, which is the 'nexus of all realities' which is already proven. Doesnt that already suggest that she can operate on a multiversal scale? If she can have total telekinetic control at the atomic level of universe 616 why not of other universes and realities while within the nexus of all reality itself?

thanks. that's pretty much exactly what i said earlier . . . 😉

regardless of how you feel mm about the m'krann crystal evidence, why does it take a multiversal level display of power to say the pf is a multiversal force?

Other places lie outside the multiverse, e.g. the Exiles Panoptichron and Otherworld, the latter could theoretically be considered outside the omniverse, or at least isolated from the rest of it. The White Hot Room isn't really all that special. 😖hifty:

And also having problems with other nexus of reality such as the ones that appeared on Man-thing 😂

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Other places lie outside the multiverse, e.g. the Exiles Panoptichron and Otherworld, the latter could theoretically be considered outside the omniverse, or at least isolated from the rest of it. The White Hot Room isn't really all that special. 😖hifty:

Correct me if Im mistaken but places that lie outside of the multiverse isnt equal to the nexus of all realities in the multiverse. A being or entity that exists within the nexus of all realities would simultaneously exist in the entire multiverse (all the universes) within it would she not? Whereas exisitng in a place outside of the multiverse you wouldnt exist in any of them at all.

Originally posted by leonidas
i also found this on quickseek (i don't know if it's an editable database . . .)
it's obviously not just gs's interpretation.

Exactly...interpretations....which is yall should stick to comic..on panel evidence...instead of having PF monkey wrenched into Galactus's Origin by some new wave writer...to make her "fit in"..that's a disgrace...

If it ain't on panel to bring it to me...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The energy was already there but Phoenix linked it together and formed a constant stable flow of it throughout the multiverse. Hence my statement that Phoenix created an energy matrix that flows around the multiverse

"Phoenix linked it together and formed a constant flow"......This is LIE....

"Phoenix created an energy matrix that flows around the multiverse".....This is another LIE...

😮bserve everyone:

This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
It clearly says 'when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a simple feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

That's it...it should be over...you should stay out of it and hope it was not seen...but ....nooooo.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
prior to Phoenix's involvement there was just ambient energy which aligned periodically. Phoenixes feat resulted in a permanently linked energy matrix which flows through the multiverse

:What REALLY happened was this:

While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had JUMPED INTO the Energy Matrix...

He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.

MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.

Bottom line stays the same.

Phoenix's greatest feat was repairing that universe....

The Mkraan Crystal event we learned was a Universal threat...no more...

And the Tower joint was impossible with out the Interfaces aligning in order to form an energy matrix which allows simultaneous existence across the multiverse, now just about any small time reality manipulator can pull that stunt off..remeber that feat was YEARS ago.

Anyone who recreate a duplicate of the tower can do that. that's all it took..while the Interfaces were aligned..the Energy Matrix gave her the ability to create that duplicate on every earth...that's it.