Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Started by Sixth_Winged35 pages
Originally posted by lightning_king
Correct me if Im mistaken but places that lie outside of the multiverse isnt equal to the nexus of all realities in the multiverse. A being or entity that exists within the nexus of all realities would simultaneously exist in the entire multiverse (all the universes) within it would she not? Whereas exisitng in a place outside of the multiverse you wouldnt exist in any of them at all.

no because, a multiverse is only a part of the bigger omniverse that encompasses all other multiverses.

Multiversal beings generally can't be shattered into a billion pieces by a simple electromagnetic pulse or forcibly reconstituted by Shi'ar technology. The White Hot Room is Jamie Braddock's playpen.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Other places lie outside the multiverse, e.g. the Exiles Panoptichron and Otherworld, the latter could theoretically be considered outside the omniverse, or at least isolated from the rest of it. The White Hot Room isn't really all that special. 😖hifty:

smart ass. we're not discussing omniverses or megaverses, we're discussing the land that lies within the jurisdiction of lt . . . 🙄 and it's only special in that it is said to house a consciousness that overlooks the multiverse and acts within said multiverse through avatars.

and mm, if you're going to disregard current continuity (ie - retcons like the m'krann crystal) well, your arguments are not gonna stand up against material presented and confirmed by marvel to be current. using your logic, the beyonder never changed, when obviously he has . . . 😬

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Multiversal beings generally can't be shattered into a billion pieces by a simple electromagnetic pulse or forcibly reconstituted by Shi'ar technology. The White Hot Room is Jamie Braddock's playpen.

but, using the universal aspects, why couldn't that have simply been the universal aspect that was shattered? universal beings are clobbered all the time by cheesy things. then the universal aspect returned to the whr to heal. (and no, i'm not positive that's what happened, but i'm not positive it didn't, either . . .)

Originally posted by leonidas
smart ass.
Half right 😊. The former not the latter.
Originally posted by leonidas
we're not discussing omniverses or megaverses, we're discussing the land that lies within the jurisdiction of lt . . . 🙄 and it's only special in that it is said to house a consciousness that overlooks the multiverse and acts within said multiverse through avatars.
But Jean is the entirety of Phoenix as so often has been lectured.
Originally posted by leonidas
and mm, if you're going to disregard current continuity (ie - retcons like the m'krann crystal) well, your arguments are not gonna stand up against material presented and confirmed by marvel to be current. using your logic, the beyonder never changed, when obviously he has . . . 😬
The most recent mention of the Phoenix has it as a universal force with an equal and opposite universal entity.
Originally posted by leonidas
but, using the universal aspects, why couldn't that have simply been the universal aspect that was shattered? universal beings are clobbered all the time by cheesy things. then the universal aspect returned to the whr to heal. (and no, i'm not positive that's what happened, but i'm not positive it didn't, either . . .)
Jean is the Phoenix though. She - the individual - can't be a universal aspect and the whole at the same time.

Additionally it took the oh-so-incredibly-uber-powerful Phoenix over 150 years to heal. And it can be trapped by a machine that Beast built.

Originally posted by lightning_king
Correct me if Im mistaken but places that lie outside of the multiverse isnt equal to the nexus of all realities in the multiverse. A being or entity that exists within the nexus of all realities would simultaneously exist in the entire multiverse (all the universes) within it would she not? Whereas exisitng in a place outside of the multiverse you wouldnt exist in any of them at all.

Just because you have access to every universe doesn't mean you can affect every unverse.
The Nexus of all Realities, inside the Crystal allows you to travel between universes, it doesn't endow you with simultaneous existence across the Multiverse.

This is what the Multiverse looks like from the outside.
It's not just space where one universe transitions into another...but in fact, though the Multiverse can manifest itself as a whole...it exists apart from it's individual Universes with in the Cosmic Vortex.
Obviously this does not affect the relationship between aspect and totality.

See those little purple balls, that's where atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...the Multiverse is seperated into Universes which are the Bigger balls obviously...anything outside the bigger balls is untouched by space or time.

First Warlock is allowed to enter this place...the Cosmic Vortex.

Now observe Warlock navigating this realm in--between Universes.

Originally posted by leonidas
that overlooks the multiverse and acts within said multiverse through avatars.

For what though?

Their not needed for big bangs..because several others can utterly obliterate a Universe..heck give Doom enough time and he'll take out the Universe for you.

Their not needed for remaking a Universe many can do that.

Their definitely NOT here to protect anyone...because PF is always M.I.A.

I think Phoenix is only significant in X-Men issues and Excalibur's short run...after that... nothing...

Originally posted by leonidas
and mm, if you're going to disregard current continuity (ie - retcons like the m'krann crystal) well, your arguments are not gonna stand up against material presented and confirmed by marvel to be current. using your logic, the beyonder never changed, when obviously he has . . . 😬

Really...it was his "Upto date" scan that clearly said Mkraan crystal was a Universal Threat. And it was then and it is now.

Through the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and potentially cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.

Sounds a bit like Wanda's feat doesn't it...the one that you yourself trumped with that rediculous analogy of yodelling.

And when Phoenix repaired this on panel it was a Universal threat, just like it is now. It "could" cause a chain reaction.

Far before it destroyed the Universe or could have destroyed the Multiverse phoenix repaired it with the HELP of several X-Men..but let's diregard that aswell...

As far as your Beyonder comment goes apparently yes...he's still ON PANEL considered to have Unlimited Power, Thanos repeats, "Unlimited". He's refering to his recent incarnation

Thanos after having the IG and THOU: 2004

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Half right 😊. The former not the latter.But Jean is the entirety of Phoenix as so often has been lectured.
The most recent mention of the Phoenix has it as a [b]uni
versal force with an equal and opposite universal entity.
Jean is the Phoenix though. She - the individual - can't be a universal aspect and the whole at the same time. [/B]

your point about jean is interesting and well thought out. to tell you the truth, i'm not sure, which is why i've never completely been sold on gs's explanation. has it been stated jean truly IS the 'whole' pf? wasn't she present when the consciousness was also present? i'm not sure, but i thought that was the case. i'll leave your question to be addressed by gs. it's a fair question. 😉

Galacticstorm

Here Prosh has taken Jeans minds back in time to where she made that fateful decision to get involved with the Phoenix (please bear in mind peeps that this is 86 retcon era interpretation here) and he flat out states to her that if Jean had not bonded with the Phoenix power then this advancement of humanity, the whole process the Stranger feared WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE.

LOL. PF is merely the touchstone. And I'll prove that.

Again youre posting under some delusion pertaining to what ive said. Ive always said humanity will evolve into a race that will replace the abstracts. The important part however is that the process is brought about by Phoenix.

I'm glad you have given everyone here your biased narration and opinions of the story and Phoenix's role in the MU...and that you continue to do so. LOL


Im glad you highlighted the part about the Phoenix power paving the way for this process. Also notice how while the other threats visualized by Death are played down, Jean as Phoenix is said to be the threat the fundamental forces most feared a legitimate threat to reality therefore suggesting that the threats portrayed by Death were not.

LOL yet again. I'm glad you have a biased view on the matter. I hope everyone actually reads the scans and decide from themselves which narration is correct or go with their own view on the matter.


Im glad you highlighted the part about the Phoenix power paving the way for this process.

[quote]Also notice how while the other threats visualized by Death are played down, Jean as Phoenix is said to be the threat the fundamental forces most feared a legitimate threat to reality therefore suggesting that the threats portrayed by Death were not.

Notice how Death says "the moment of contact between you and the Phoenix, you sensed something of it INFINITE POWER, its UNFATHOMABLE KNOWLEDGE, and part of YOU hungered for it." When Jean touched the Phoenix she gained knowledge of the cosmos. Surfer also jumped at the chance of brief godhood, a chance to gain knowledge and LT temporarily granted it. Jean "YEARNED for growth," for cosmic hood...and according to Death, "for this very reason (GROWTH to cosmic hood) the forces of the universe [b]fear the EVOLUTION of sentient life - ESPECIALLY THE HUMAN RACE." Again, Jean is merely the standard for cosmichood, a basis, A TOUCHSTONE.

It's interesting how Death claims that the Forces of the universe like to "thin out the herd" so "there's less resistence" when the abstracts themselves created sentient life and if these sentient beings died who but Death would prosper. LOL

Where does Jean Grey fall into this? Why are they afraid of Jean Grey?

Next page. Because Jean is a 1] Human, 2] Mutant, 3] Unlimited Potential OF MANKIND & UNQUENCHABLE DESIRE TO GROW. Of the five, Jean Grey is the ONLY KEY (of the gnats) that has been according Stranger to have been touched by the fundemental forces of the universe. Again Jean is the "touchstone" (Stranger) that "paves the road - for a potentially cataclysmic advancement of the human species."

Death, "So what choices will you make?" Next page: Jean is on the shuttle before meeting the Phoenix Force.

Wonders why Prosh is making her relive this incident.

If she accepts the PF, she's becomes the only one of the key to gain cosmichood, the first of this evolutionary advancement that. Prosh gives her the option of not choosing the PF. If she does, there would be no one to "show humanity how to weave the tapestry of the universe." And again, what's the definition of touchstone? LOL. It would mean the abstracts have nothing to fear since there would be no touchstone.

But Jean doesn't know what to. If she DOESN'T CHOOSE the Phoenix Force, the M'Krann crystal would destroy the universe. If she does and becomes the touchstone, the abstracts (according to Prosh) would destroy mankind to prevent their replacement.

But she doesn't get to make that choice. She ends up in another part of the time line, in her another past body.

Which leads to Xavier's computer.

And then revealing the unlimited potential of Bobby and Jean. What's the Phoenix Force mentioned in this part?

The Celestials themselves "seeded all creation with the POTENTIAL to instigate the end" and "Earth is their fruition of their work. THE HUMAN RACE." According to Eternity, the Celestials created mankind. PF had nothing to do with it.

Jean is the touchstone. The only one of they keys that the fundemental forces of the universe has kissed.

This force is the "ressurection force." It's a part of the cycle not above it, not above the other cosmics.

Phoenix shows Jean who YET AGAIN YEARNS to witness MANKIND'S ROLE as the universe's EVENTUAL DESTROYER and SAVIOR. Again, where in this does it say the Phoenix Force is responsible, except for acting as a touchstone? Mankind's EVENTUAL role as destroyer and savior of the universe, not the PF. Where does it say the PF gets to decide? LOL

Wait. Stranger doesn't know how "one can evolve into the abstracts?" He doesn't know? LOL. What's this B.S. about Stranger using PF? If it's the PF he wouldn't have said "many have wondered" and "we simply have come to accept it."

LOL. The Stranger failed to comprehend and thought that the abstracts were against the whole thing. The "POTENTIAL TO INSTIGATE THE END" was seeded by the Celestials.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Anyone who has read New X-men will have seen the avatars talk of how they watch over the multiverse and how the fixing of broken universes is Phoenix work. The point is actually stated on panel. You have been fooled. Think for yourself dont follow others blindly.

He's right Lord Urizen. Think for yourself and don't follow others blindly. Some crazy fanboy might take advantage of you leading you to believe:

- Phoenix Force created the multiverse
- Is greater than the Living Tribunal, Pre-Rectcon Beyonder
- TOAA is not Marvel supreme being
- Pre-Rectcon Molecule Man needed Surfer's help
- Korvac alone could actually survive the Tribunal's judgement

And what's this? GS trying to shoot down Prosh's statement?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As for Proshs comments relating to the abstracts surviving through a Big Bang well that’s at odds with all other sources regarding the destruction of the universe. Also in Eternitys bio you will see it stated that he came into being after the universe was born:

July 02, 2006 06:40 AM

Wa...wa..what's dis? Kevdude Vs. Galacticstorm over Lucifer surviving the demiurge blast? Is he going to diminish Lucifer's durability? HOW? LOL


quote: (post)
Originally posted by kevdude
I don't think from what i've read that half of those beings can even take a blast like that when Michael was killed. Don't know about the other half.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Lucifer survived a universal level explosion. Big wow. Even the abstracts can survive the destruction of a universe as stated on panel:

That in and of itself really doesnt help your case in the slightest.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7508393059.jpg&s=x11

Lucifer has no on panel showing of power which is anywhere near the likes of even the IG let alone the Phoenix Force and thats non debatable.

Lucifer Runs the Gauntlet
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=408998&perpage=20&highlight=Lucifer&pagenumber=10

LOL. Yet again, he twist the facts.

Wait...GS is a hypocrite too?

Mr. Masters
It's not the first time Death survives when the most powerful beings in the universe are being killed.
Here Death protects herself and Starfox and Nebula from utter destruction.
And THIS TIME his power with the IG, was applied to her(because she attacked him with the others)and the rest that were there.
Only Death survived, along with those she rescued.
Galacticstorm
Youre being rather selective with your scans here my friend. Would you care to post the whole scene as opposed to a little snippet. If i recall correctly at that specific point in which your scan comes from Thanos was battling other cosmic beings. His power wasnt being directly applied to Death she just protected herself and the others from the feedoff coming from said battle. Irrelevant.

Earlier in this thread.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=410642&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=10

Funny why doesn't this guy take his own advice? Everybody applaud Galacticstorm for enlightenning this board with his unbiased expertise!

Originally posted by Mr Master
For what though?

Their not needed for big bangs..because several others can utterly obliterate a Universe..heck give Doom enough time and he'll take out the Universe for you.

Their not needed for remaking a Universe many can do that.

Their definitely NOT here to protect anyone...because PF is always M.I.A.

I think Phoenix is only significant in X-Men issues and Excalibur's short run...after that... nothing...

i said a ,ong time ago, pf is portrayed differently in x-books because of internal politics. it was mentioned in an interview somewhere. pf is not used outside the x-verse very often, if ever. however, you're saying their is no need for it is ignoring the scene where galactus tries to drain her and death says if he does all life in the universe will cease. that's a rather important role . . .

also when universes reach their end everything in them dies -- so it would be tough for doom to make a machine when he's already been wiped out along with his whole universe. the situations you describe are not 'natural'. when a universe dies, the pf ignites the big bang in the following one. that's the cycle and that's its job. again, pretty important . . .

Really...it was his "Upto date" scan that clearly said Mkraan crystal was a Universal Threat. And it was then and it is now.

Through the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and potentially cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.

Sounds a bit like Wanda's feat doesn't it...the one that you yourself trumped with that rediculous analogy of yodelling.

And when Phoenix repaired this on panel it was a Universal threat, just like it is now. It "could" cause a chain reaction.

Far before it destroyed the Universe or could have destroyed the Multiverse phoenix repaired it with the HELP of several X-Men..but let's diregard that aswell...

As far as your Beyonder comment goes apparently yes...he's still ON PANEL considered to have Unlimited Power, Thanos repeats, "Unlimited". He's refering to his recent incarnation

Thanos after having the IG and THOU: 2004

so, let me get this straight: you think the beyonder is right now at the same level of power it was in the secret wars minis? is that what you're getting at?

bios (which you seemed quite eager to dismiss the whole time . . .) also fail to include the multiversal level entities of death and infinity and eternity. so . . . they don't exist either? as far as the crystal -- what i'd like is definitive -- on panel proof -- that it really IS a multiversal object. you've screamed for on-panel evidence. if it IS shown, would yu then believe it?

as far as wanda (which is wholly off-topic) -- could she have halted the wave? show me anywhere where she even seemed AWARE that the wave happened. you don't like yodelling, how about this: say you find a canister in a subway. you start playing around and tampering with it then accidentally set it off. it's an uber-powerful nerve gas and it drifts up and wipes out the city then keeps going to wipe out the country. you originated the problem. is it your power that killed everyone?

wanda tampered with reality (you tampering with the canister) -- a great feat -- her tampering unleashed something (the nerve gas) that was beyond her control and took on a life of it's own beyond her having been the origin of it.

i still like the yodelling better.

Originally posted by leonidas
as far as wanda (which is wholly off-topic) -- could she have halted the wave? show me anywhere where she even seemed AWARE that the wave happened. you don't like yodelling, how about this: say you find a canister in a subway. you start playing around and tampering with it then accidentally set it off. it's an uber-powerful nerve gas and it drifts up and wipes out the city then keeps going to wipe out the country. you originated the problem. is it your power that killed everyone?

wanda tampered with reality (you tampering with the canister) -- a great feat -- her tampering unleashed something (the nerve gas) that was beyond her control and took on a life of it's own beyond her having been the origin of it.

Yay, new analogy. So what exactly was the water or the snow or the fire or the 🤨 nerve gas? From where is it derived?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]

As you have highlighted and as you seem to accept here, the Stranger confirms the Phoenix Force to be both the BEGINNING AND THE END, of the cycle. He doesn’t say the Phoenix is merely a part of the cycle, that’s just something you’ve added. He marks it out as the cycles origin and endpoint. A notion that Eternity later confirms.

😆 More nonesense by you I see. Now where does it say she isn't part of the cycle? That with the PF the Stranger would become the supreme being? The Stranger is in fact showing that the PF is a part of the cycle...as the Ressurection Force.

The Phoenix Force shows Jean nothing. It is a visualization created by the Stranger. (The fact that it comes out of Strangers chest should have proved to be a slight giveaway. After having stated Phoenixes role in the process the Stranger goes on to visualize it. He shows Jean a Phoenix Force engulfed D.N.A chain emerging from the planet Earth slowly forming into Eternity. All of this completely in line with Death and Prosh’s earlier comments regarding mankind having the potential which the Phoenix power could make reality.

So you do admit that Phoenix Force is a part of the cycle. Great. Then we can all expect no more bullshit about the Phoenix Force being above the universal cycle and responsible for fueling/powering/or creating the other abstracts.

Greater then the Living Tribunal? 😆 Created the multiverse? 😘

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Stranger has already shown us that the Phoenix power is that which brings about the beginning and the end of a universes cycle. He then went on to talk to Jean about how controlling human evolution could give someone control over reality and the fundamental forces. How is this process achieved? Via the Phoenix power. As stated by Death and Eternity and as shown by Strangers visualization.

This isn’t the first time the Phoenix power has been linked to evolution. In the Ultimate Universe the Phoenix manifestation is thought to be the power that drives evolution:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13416024680.jpg&s=f5

Dark Phoenixes actions were said to serve evolution:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/7509384335.jpg&s=x11

Jean says in New X-men that the Phoenix burns away what doesn’t work and in both New X-men and Endsong Dark Phoenix talks of burning away evolutionary dead-ends.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209090372.jpg&s=f5

Phoenix avatars are referred to as the “ultimate mutation,” Which is in line with Jean being referred to as the touchstone by the Stranger and Prosh. She is the endpoint by which all the other ascended will be measured against. The powers manifestation within Jean Grey was said to have evolved her exponentially by the Watcher:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209123448.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18209194523.jpg&s=f5

Okay, okay. So the Phoenix Force is part of the cylce of the universe. Jeez. She plays a part in the universe among other beings. That potential to instigate the end is still because of the Celestials. And how can she create or destroy a universe if there is no universe? No Eternity, no Infinity, no Chaos, no Order, no life?

And where does it say she created the multiverse?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So you do admit that Phoenix Force is a part of the cycle. Great. Then we can all expect no more bullshit about the Phoenix Force being above the universal cycle and responsible for fueling/powering/or creating the other abstracts.

LMAO!

Dude you definitely sealed the coffin.

WhiteWitchKing makes perfect sense.

Dude you paved the road...for us to finally understand the complexity of the PF.

By these standards..I will explain the Phoenix from this point on...

hope you don't mind...

great to have a real debater on board.....peace.

ps. We need more heads like you.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The TRUTH

Originally posted by leonidas
but, just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it can be dismissed either. 😬

and you think eternity could fix a SEPERATE universe? why would you think that? they are the embodiment of their OWN universe. i'd not think their power would transfer to other universes. assume for a moment eternity DID leave his own universe. what would be left behind?? just opinion, of course, but it seems to stand to reason. pf seems to be needed when eternity CANNOT repair itself.

Eternity and Infinity have both journeyed to another reality to defeat the Magus (IW 6). Eternity uses M-bodies and travels to other universes via M-bodies. 616 was about to merge with another evil 616 Magus made. I don't see a problem with M-bodies moving about other universes. The Celestials (though not abstract) take physcial shells to operate in the 616. I just see it as something similar.


gs's scan seems to show one instance, in guardians of the galaxy giraud also cured eternity of a disease that was killing it. interesting to note the pf fought off the disease that even eternity was unable to fight off. [/B]

I remember running into that somewhere and could've sworn it was a What If ? Would you mind giving me the specific issue? If not it's okay.

Galactus used Gamora as a scalpel to journey inside Eternity and destroy dark bands which put Eternity into a comatose (Warlock and the Infinty Watch 9).

Originally posted by Mr Master
LMAO!

Dude you definitely sealed the coffin.

WhiteWitchKing makes perfect sense.

Dude you paved the road...for us to finally understand the complexity of the PF.

By these standards..I will explain the Phoenix from this point on...

hope you don't mind...

great to have a real debater on board.....peace.

ps. We need more heads like you.

Thanks man. 👆