Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Phoenix Force has a counterpart called the First Fallen... and it sucked proverbial arse. Uncanny X-Men #474
So true, for a polar opposite of the PF he sucked big time as Psylocke caught him off guard. But to be fair we never saw his real form(Some Shadow thing) or the real extent of his power. Plus they never showed us the mutant that he manifested in.(I'm guessing it's Jamie). Mainly because he has so many parallels to Jean in saving his family and friends from such a destructive universal force by sacrificing himself.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The TRUTH
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Eternity and Infinity have both journeyed to another reality to defeat the Magus (IW 6). Eternity uses M-bodies and travels to other universes via M-bodies. 616 was about to merge with another evil 616 Magus made. I don't see a problem with M-bodies moving about other universes. The Celestials (though not abstract) take physcial shells to operate in the 616. I just see it as something similar.I remember running into that somewhere and could've sworn it was a What If ? Would you mind giving me the specific issue? If not it's okay.
Galactus used Gamora as a scalpel to journey inside Eternity and destroy dark bands which put Eternity into a comatose (Warlock and the Infinty Watch 9).
your first point about m-bodies is well taken, but as an m-body they don't possess their full power (obviously or their would be nothing left behind), and if a universe were 'dying' it seems they would need their full power. in any event, it doesn't seem like the job of healing other universes should come down to the embodiments of specific universes. jut my opinion . . . 😬
the gotg 35-37 was the arc, i think. the 'healing' may have taken place in 36 or 37. it was just before dormammu showed up. and in galactic guardians giraud battled the multiversal entity ubiquitor.
but . . . you never answered my question: do you think beyonder is at his secret wars level . . .? 😖hifty:
Ok I've stood by and let this go on but in the words of the immortal Popeye I stands what I can stands and I can't stands no more.
Listen people in Marvel exists a a rift basically two versions of the same thing. As stated before there is the X-verse and the rest of Marvel. Basically both sides are somewhat right and completely wrong. Marvel is out of balance and has been for awhile. I can even give you the reason MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes X-Men is Marvel's money maker in fact it's big money maker for a long time. Guess what that means for people that right X-Men and people that don't. Well here it is people who write x-Men get more freedom in writing their own cosmic hierarchy and people that don't right on X-Men have to stick to a more strict interpretation of what Marvel has done before.
as stated before the reason for this money Marvel wants and the X-Men give it to them. so to keep fans of X-Men happy Marvel lets writers do what they want to appease them. What by the way appeases an X-Men fan more is making their favorite characters stronger and better and more important in the cosmic level. That is why you can have God-Like Cable or Uber Magneto and the reason why you have the Phoenix. It is this way to make X-Men fans happy and buying the comics.
Do you ever notice that characters from outside the X-Verse like top tier heroes or other higher cosmics are always written differently then in the X-Verse then normally or to show that the X-Men are in their league. Just look at the Onslaught sag and how it really just messed with all of Marvel's characters depowering alot of them to make the Mutants look better.
The truth is that because of this there will never be a true structered ladder because people not writing on the X-Men will always keep it the way it was while in the x-verse Phoenix is the strongest. The only way to end this would be if the x-Men stopped being the Marvel Cash Cow because then they would be subject to everything else in Marvel.
Until then though all this speculation and trying to take scans force them into loose interprations on both sides you will have nothing more than theories and half baked ideas that can just as easily be looked at in a different way.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The TRUTH
Originally posted by leonidas
you never answered my question: do you think beyonder is at his secret wars level . . .?
I believe this was directed at me...since it was I...that pulled out a recent Beyonder scan...
To answer the question....no or I don't know...with all these retcons going around...Thanos did say however...that "out of it's mortal form the Maker(former Beyonder)has unlimited power"...he repeats..."Unlimited power".
I don't know what that exactly means...the series didn't go deeper into that...but this is former IG-Thanos former HOTU-Thanos talking who's still very powerful in his own right....what would he consider unlimited power?
I just enjoy how you and gs pick and choose retcons and points to debate..but ignore issues where your proven wrong.
I admitted I was incorrect on the Death scan..and I even excepted Phoenix jammed into Galactus's, TRUE origin...the origin that took place in comics..drawn in it's entirety...but if you want to see that Phoenix had anything to do with Galactus, you have to read it in some "bio"...a comic book does not exist of that happening.
But you still haven't answered me also...on the Excalibur lighthouse debate.
Why did your man LIE three times...and you don't recognize that?
Your obviously on his side on this thread...but still...come on.
Then you actually joined in the objection of the Ultimate Nullifier's Feat. The Remaking of the Multiverse...when it was in comics...drawn happening, and so obvious that it was the Multiverse...to EVERYONE...except you and gs.
If every Galactus across the Multiverse died and nearly every Reed Richards across the Multiverse died....besides the fact that Abraxas's first kill was outside 616...that he entered 616 from another Universe...that the inbalance was Multiverse wide...when so long as ONE Galactus is dead...Abraxas will continue to manifest from the heart of Eternity.
So when the Ultimate Nullifier was used...it JUST remade 616 and hey... everything in the Multiverse goes back to normal...lol...Galactus's in every Universe resurrect automatically...lol....Reeds across the Multiverse mysteriously re-appear... you think about it...and figure it out.
You came out and said..."the Ultimate Nullifier has never shown the power to do that, it's only been a Universal destroyer...well hey so was the Mkraan Crystal...and now it's supposedly a potentially Multiversal destroyer....
the difference is..FACT: the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse that can potentially take out the multiverse.
While the Ultimate Nullifier can not only Destroy..but Remake the Multiverse to what ever you wish.
Originally posted by newjak86
Ok I've stood by and let this go on but in the words of the immortal Popeye I stands what I can stands and I can't stands no more.Listen people in Marvel exists a a rift basically two versions of the same thing. As stated before there is the X-verse and the rest of Marvel. Basically both sides are somewhat right and completely wrong. Marvel is out of balance and has been for awhile. I can even give you the reason MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes X-Men is Marvel's money maker in fact it's big money maker for a long time. Guess what that means for people that right X-Men and people that don't. Well here it is people who write x-Men get more freedom in writing their own cosmic hierarchy and people that don't right on X-Men have to stick to a more strict interpretation of what Marvel has done before.
as stated before the reason for this money Marvel wants and the X-Men give it to them. so to keep fans of X-Men happy Marvel lets writers do what they want to appease them. What by the way appeases an X-Men fan more is making their favorite characters stronger and better and more important in the cosmic level. That is why you can have God-Like Cable or Uber Magneto and the reason why you have the Phoenix. It is this way to make X-Men fans happy and buying the comics.
Do you ever notice that characters from outside the X-Verse like top tier heroes or other higher cosmics are always written differently then in the X-Verse then normally or to show that the X-Men are in their league. Just look at the Onslaught sag and how it really just messed with all of Marvel's characters depowering alot of them to make the Mutants look better.
The truth is that because of this there will never be a true structered ladder because people not writing on the X-Men will always keep it the way it was while in the x-verse Phoenix is the strongest. The only way to end this would be if the x-Men stopped being the Marvel Cash Cow because then they would be subject to everything else in Marvel.
Until then though all this speculation and trying to take scans force them into loose interprations on both sides you will have nothing more than theories and half baked ideas that can just as easily be looked at in a different way.
This make sense....
And I suggested something like this before..that in that "Universe" where she appears... she bigtime...but to the rest of the Marvel reality...she's practically non-existent.
I think WhiteWitchKing described it best though..while still including her..in the mainstream...
Originally posted by Mr MasterNo what I'm saying is that writers are taking the same characters from the same universe Multiverse whatever and choosing to use them in different ways.
This make sense....And I suggested something like this before..that in that "Universe" where she appears... she bigtime...but to the rest of the Marvel reality...she's practically non-existent.
I think WhiteWitchKing described it best though..while still including her..in the mainstream...
What I'm saying is that neither one is incorrect because Marvel doesn't choose to take one and make it the cannon one and it will be that way as long as X-Men is what brings in the green stuff.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The TRUTH
Originally posted by Mr Master
I believe this was directed at me...since it was I...that pulled out a recent Beyonder scan...To answer the question....no or I don't know...with all these retcons going around...Thanos did say however...that "out of it's mortal form the Maker(former Beyonder)has unlimited power"...he repeats..."Unlimited power".
I don't know what that exactly means...the series didn't go deeper into that...but this is former IG-Thanos former HOTU-Thanos talking who's still very powerful in his own right....what would he consider unlimited power?
I just enjoy how you and gs pick and choose retcons and points to debate..but ignore issues where your proven wrong.
I admitted I was incorrect on the Death scan..and I even excepted Phoenix jammed into Galactus's, TRUE origin...the origin that took place in comics..drawn in it's entirety...but if you want to see that Phoenix had anything to do with Galactus, you have to read it in some "bio"...a comic book does not exist of that happening.
But you still haven't answered me also...on the Excalibur lighthouse debate.
Why did your man LIE three times...and you don't recognize that?
Your obviously on his side on this thread...but still...come on.Then you actually joined in the objection of the Ultimate Nullifier's Feat. The Remaking of the Multiverse...when it was in comics...drawn happening, and so obvious that it was the Multiverse...to EVERYONE...except you and gs.
If every Galactus across the Multiverse died and nearly every Reed Richards across the Multiverse died....besides the fact that Abraxas's first kill was outside 616...that he entered 616 from another Universe...that the inbalance was Multiverse wide...when so long as ONE Galactus is dead...Abraxas will continue to manifest from the heart of Eternity.
So when the Ultimate Nullifier was used...it JUST remade 616 and hey... everything in the Multiverse goes back to normal...lol...Galactus's in every Universe resurrect automatically...lol....Reeds across the Multiverse mysteriously re-appear... you think about it...and figure it out.
You came out and said..."the Ultimate Nullifier has never shown the power to do that, it's only been a Universal destroyer...well hey so was the Mkraan Crystal...and now it's supposedly a potentially Multiversal destroyer....
the difference is..FACT: the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse that can potentially take out the multiverse.
While the Ultimate Nullifier can not only Destroy..but Remake the Multiverse to what ever you wish.
the difference between us in this thread: i'm expressing opinion stated as opinion and asking questions without resorting to calling people liars or insulting you. you seem to be getting rather frustrated because your OPINIONS are not enough to convince me that your OPINIONS are the correct ones in all cases.
i'm curious what retcons exactly i'm picking and choosing. you sure seem to be down on bios that are written and approved by the people at marvel. 🙁 not my problem, take it up with them. generally what is in them is considered current and canon. so if the OFFICIAL handbook of the marvel universe implicates the pf in galactus's origins, guess what? your opinion of that galactus origin book (c. 1984?) is irrelevant to this discussion. why would marvel rewrite the entire book when all that needs to be done is to put it in a couple bios? things change, some for the better some not. so there's a retcon that i have not 'picked & chosen', from, it's one i've been consistent on and accepted -- as you say you have . . .
the infinity being is another retcon that i've not 'picked & chosen' from. please show me any official source outside the ig mini that supports the universe being birthed by the infinity being. here's a question that was asked of tom brevoort (marvel executive editor) in an interview recently:
"Also, where does the Infinity Being fit into this? I have heard it stated that the gems came from this being or something to that effect."
his answer:
"That's at least one SPECULATIVE origin of where the gems come from initially."
so, he's not sure of the answer, but i'm supposed to believe you . . .? 😕
what's to say about the beyonder retcon? take it up with ralph macchio. 😬
as far as the m'krann crystal: i asked you a simple question -- if it could be shown in a book to be multiversal, would you accept that as a multiversal feat? you never answered, nor did i ever claim to know for certain that the crystal IS multiversal. i've not seen a scan saying it is either, though there are many who seem to believe it. perhaps gs has a scan proving it.
so which retcons am i picking and choosing from exactly . . .? 😕
the nullifer bit: isn't the multiverse infinite? that's been stated many times. so, the nullifer wiped out the ENTIRE infinity of the multiverse -- all of the toaa's creation -- when reed used it? or was it selective and attacked only the universes it needed to? and why wasn't its effect multiversal when morg used it on galactus's ship? there it only wiped out his ship. why not when korvac used it to destroy the universe? it's actually your OPINION that the entire infinity of the multiverse was reset? and somehow you think i should believe THAT OPINION, over my own which simply says that when the original problem was fixed in 616, the rest of the problem fixed itself? or maybe it wasn't. maybe abraxus is still out there. who knows. i don't. you don't. but let's take one final look and see WHY exactly i hold my OPINION of its effect:
here we see franklin using his power (ridiculously powerful feat, one of the most powerful imo) to birth a BRAND new galactus in the 616. how do i know that's not multi-eternity in the background? why would he accost multi-eternity to get a new galactus for 616? and is franklin really THAT powerful . . .?
here is the next page as franklin continues to work his power -- we see infinity join the party. could they be the multi-entities? i suppose, but again, why would they be?
and at the end of the book, what do we see? eternity being shattered and ultimately (by the nullifer's power) remade. so was this the multi-eternity? again, why would it be?
and lastly. you've actually used this scan to support your theory of multiversal reset. however, it supports my OWN opinion at least equally well. it shows reed in 616 dying and reeds everywhere else dying. what does that say? it seems to me to say that events that happen in 616 are ECHOED throughout all these other worlds. so, if galactus is brought back in 616, and abraxus is defeated in 616, why wouldn't he fall in all these other worlds in the same way the reeds were falling?
hopefully i've done a reasonable job in outlining my OPINION of those events, hopefully i've demonstrated that in the retcon department i have and always try to remain current and consistent, and hopefully you now understand that the m'krann crystal remains an issue for me.
as far as gs being a liar -- gs is far from infallible. i've debated against him as many times as WITH him but generally he knows hs stuff and has defended it against a LOT of intelligent people who haven't been quite as insulting. i'll leave that issue alone, and let him defend himself. he's a big boy. 😉
Originally posted by newjak86
No what I'm saying is that writers are taking the same characters from the same universe Multiverse whatever and choosing to use them in different ways.
In the X-verse version Phoenix is top dog on the food chaing while in the rest of marvel it seems to be LT.What I'm saying is that neither one is incorrect because Marvel doesn't choose to take one and make it the cannon one and it will be that way as long as X-Men is what brings in the green stuff.
i basically said that about 15 pgs ago, newjak. 😉
ps-worried about your second round match up yet . . .? 😈
Seems to me some people are trying to exaggerate the Phoenix's power whereas others are trying to downplay it. I agree with the other poster who said anyone who can have total telekinetic control of an entire universe down to the atomic level is certainly not a "nobody". However I do not believe the Phoenix is above LT, is TOAA, created the multiverse, etc. Im sure she has a role to play in creation along with the other cosmics and is certainly unimaginably powerful. Hopefully Phoenix Warsong will clear some things up for everyone.
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Originally posted by leonidas
you seem to be getting rather frustrated because your OPINIONS are not enough to convince me that your OPINIONS are the correct ones in all cases.the infinity being is another retcon that i've not 'picked & chosen' from. please show me any official source outside the ig mini that supports the universe being birthed by the infinity being.
This is the description of the origin of the Multi-verse.
No mention of Infinity Being NO mention of Phoenix Force either.
No one wins that one. You follow bios...I follow on panel art work...
Originally posted by leonidas
the m'krann crystal: i asked you a simple question -- if it could be shown in a book to be multiversal, would you accept that as a multiversal feat?
If it's drawn in a comic book...and it's power is being depicted as such...I would execpt it absolutely...if it's drawn it's canon in my book...if it's some shmuck in an office writing changes with out even knowing the character's potential or limits and their demondstrated feats...heck NO.
Those bios are flawed all over...the knew ones even more than the old.
Originally posted by leonidas
so which retcons am i picking and choosing from exactly . . .?
The Mkraan Crystal event, vs Ultimate Nullifier.
When the Crystal was drawn in comics it was a Universal feat...some writer YEARS later say's now that was a multiversal feat, and changes what heppened on panel....garbage...not you...Marvel that allowed that.
But you cleared it up now you wasn't sure if it was multiversal...and gs will not find a scan of the Mkraan ever affecting ther multiverse...ever.
Originally posted by leonidas
the nullifer bit: isn't the multiverse infinite? that's been stated many times. so, the nullifer wiped out the ENTIRE infinity of the multiverse -- all of the toaa's creation -- when reed used it? or was it selective and attacked only the universes it needed to?
The Multiverse is not infinite...even Eternity(single Universe)is refered to as Infinite...All that is...I showed you all this on the first page.
There are other universes outside the Multiverse...whether they're outside the Cosmic Vortex...I don't know.
It couldn't have been selective...because every Galactus in the Multiverse died.
Originally posted by leonidas
and why wasn't its effect multiversal when morg used it on galactus's ship? there it only wiped out his ship. why not when korvac used it to destroy the universe?
It has different ranges of area that it affects.
It's been used JUST to wipe out a Single being once...Galactus's ship...a Universe...and now a Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's actually your OPINION that the entire infinity of the multiverse was reset? and somehow you think i should believe THAT OPINION, over my own which simply says that when the original problem was fixed in 616, the rest of the problem fixed itself? or maybe it wasn't. maybe abraxus is still out there. who knows. i don't. you don't.
You can believe what ever you wish to believe...
If Universes fixed themselves..why did Phoenix have to fix that other Universe?
Well because since it was a Phoenix feat it could not have..it HAD to be fixed by Phoenix....ONE Universe...when ALL universes were in jeopardy.
And Abraxas is not out there...otherwise Roma would know and the Multiverse would still be falling apart.
Originally posted by leonidas
here we see franklin using his power (ridiculously powerful feat, one of the most powerful imo) to birth a BRAND new galactus in the 616. how do i know that's not multi-eternity in the background? why would he accost multi-eternity to get a new galactus for 616? and is franklin really THAT powerful . . .?
Because Galactus is born from the heart of Eternity&Infinity(single Universe).
That's how you know
Originally posted by leonidas
here is the next page as franklin continues to work his power -- we see infinity join the party. could they be the multi-entities? i suppose, but again, why would they be?
Wrong...
They are not the Multi-version
Eternity&Infinity exist in all universes as a single Universe...Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of the Multiverse.
Originally posted by leonidas
and at the end of the book, what do we see? eternity being shattered and ultimately (by the nullifer's power) remade. so was this the multi-eternity? again, why would it be?
Again, I showed you why.
Originally posted by leonidas
it shows reed in 616 dying and reeds everywhere else dying. what does that say? it seems to me to say that events that happen in 616 are ECHOED throughout all these other worlds. so, if galactus is brought back in 616, and abraxus is defeated in 616, why wouldn't he fall in all these other worlds in the same way the reeds were falling?
Nice try...but Abraxas didn't cause a domino effect by killing Reed in 616.
His power is... Multiversal...he killed every Reed because he had the power to not because what happens in 616 resonates through out the Multiverse...hell NO your opinion is NOT equal to mine.
That's even rediculous...so every action that takes place in 616 must occur in every Universe? Is that what your saying?
And READ this carefully...
Abraxas killed his FIRST Galactus OUTSIDE 616. Fantastic Four Annual 2001
Originally posted by leonidas
hopefully i've done a reasonable job in outlining my OPINION of those events, hopefully i've demonstrated that in the retcon department i have and always try to remain current and consistent, and hopefully you now understand that the m'krann crystal remains an issue for me.
You have...and I honestly respect your opinion..but you have been leaning towards one side though.
And the reason I've been harsh with this gs...is because of his snyde remarks and insulting sarcasm..like if he's debating with idiots beneath him, when he lies to make you feel that way..and if you read the first response on the first page...it's to an insult of his.
I hope you see the simple wisdom in this post.
1. TOAA
😮bviously:
2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...
3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)
4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:
5. Ultimate Nullifier
😮bliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.
6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:
7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.
8. Phoenix Force(slightly above)
Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death
9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.
