Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Originally posted by Mr Master
1. TOAA
😮bviously:

2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...

3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)

4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:

5. Ultimate Nullifier
😮bliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.

6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:

7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.

8. Phoenix Force(slightly above)
Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death

9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.

This list seems pretty accurate to me.

Man, I leave for one weekend to the river, and this thread explodes. I know I am way behind to retort my comments, but I'll do it anyway.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No definative answer yet:

- Warlock affected cosmic being except the LT
- LT easily stopped the IG

From an outburst, yes, but that's it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
- IG has yet to even show it could do anything to LT or LT's judgement

Nor has it tried besides Warlock's outburst. A complete IG has never existed after Warlock separated the gems (not a cannon one anyway).

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
- He's kept the gem's ability from working if they were tried to unite

Already established. Stopping the gems from working together isn't the same as taking them down after they are together.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
- It was LT that the Gauntlet worked again

Correct

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
- It was shut down yet again by LT after Infinity Wars

Assumed, but I won't argue against it since logically it makes sense.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Again, can anyone show me where the IG can affect the Living Tribunal in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM?

Again, I don't have to, because I'm not trying to prove it's more powerful than the LT. It's you who has to show the LT is more powerful than the IG since that is what you're claiming, and the ONLY thing you have to go on that is on panel is the LT resisting and cancelling out Warlock's outburst. Impressive? Yes, but not definitive of superior power. All it shows is that he's superior to the other abstracts. Also, in that same panel, a Celestial was shown as also still standing against that same blast, albeit with effort. But we know the IG can crush that same Celestial as it has done it before.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Your making it sound as if it was nothing. Almost every major cosmic in the MU were servely thrashed. None could do a thing and yet you try and dismiss it? Yeah, I guess Phoenix Force could've done better. LOL

If you go back to the original thread, you will see that I never dismissed it as nothing. I've always said that it was impressive of the LT to not even flinch at that while everyone else was thrown about. However, it only proves that he is above the other abstracts. As far as the Phoenix comment goes, I've never argued for or against it, so the comment is pointless.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nope. That power eminated from the Infinity Gauntlet. LT stood there just fine while "everything around them was being being destroyed" as you've stated. Again this shows the IG being able to affect everyone and everything except the Living Tribunal.
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig56ys.jpg

I don't have the link with me right now, but on the page before this one, it shows both the IG and the LT's energy from his chest flaring up. Once I find the link, I'll post it or just scan it in myself when I get home.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It has to do with him denying everything from him being an unfit ruler to the Living Tribunal and TOAA's powers being superior to him. His statements were from denial and arrogance not because it was true.

True he was arrogant at the time but never once during or after he agreed with the judgment does he admit that the LT's power is above the IG's. The pic given here only supports Warlock (after judgment) that the LT's boss is above all gods, not the LT himself.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
But he did take it directly. As a matter of fact that he's right there along with Eternity (his left) and Order (his right).
http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltrulesig10cf.jpg

And you also see the Celestial standing his ground as well, but we know that he is inferior to the IG in battle. All we know from this scene is that the LT's power is above the abstracts. You can't say that taking one blast from someone with no effect is a show of superior power. There are too many instances in comic book history showing otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So..the fact that LT can go around turning beings into Universes is of no consequence to you?

GS is already debating with you about this, and I do agree with his point that the LT did to turn the SS into a universe. He gave him a moment of godhood. That's all that way stated. Nothing about him turning into a universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Besides that he showed superiority when he brought order back to the destruction that Warlock had caused.

The LT reversed an outburst of rage by Warlock. Yes, very impressive but not definitive of superior power. When Molecule Man reversed all the damage that the Beyonder caused with the wave of his finger, did anyone say that immediately made him more powerful?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Besides that he didn't back down subjectively the way some people make it sound...that it's on panel they were Both flaring up...every other entity there faded away...it was almost on.

True, he didn't back down, but that's no indication of power. It just says that he will do battle to see his judgment passed. Thanos also didn't back down from Odin or Tyrant, and Captain America didn't back down from Thanos.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never once said that LT dwarfed the IG.
I always knew what that line meant.
I still stand by my "determining" explanation.
The IG gives you top five status in the multi-verse, those are awesome levels, I guess it had to be gauged, and he still ruled against him after he "determined" if he had the power to

So by your logic, if the LT determined he didn't have the power to stop Warlock, then he wouldn't have ruled against him? But we know that isn't true, because he went up against and lost to Thanos with the HOTU. His rulings are based on cosmic law, not by determining if he has the power to win a fight or not.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Your confusing me dude, or your just looking for something to pick at.
This the first time in my life, I use a bio in a debate.
It just flowed well with that part of what I was saying.
It matters to me little if at all, handbooks, I know they'll mix things up, but even they for better or for worse...agreed that Living Tribunal's power surpassed the IG.

And this is the first time I've seen you use a bio is a debate before. My purpose for bringing it up as well was to show everyone else that just because it's stated in the bio means little even if you are using it. All that matters is on panel, and on panel has given us no definitive answer.

Look, they could come out with a comic tomorrow that shows the LT spanking Eternity with the IG with one hand tied behind his back, and I will gladly admit his superiority. I'm not anti-LT. On other boards, I've defended him in debates that stated the IG was superior to him. My position always has been and always will be (until shown otherwise on panel) that neither one is superior to the other.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
Man, I leave for one weekend to the river, and this thread explodes. I know I am way behind to retort my comments, but I'll do it anyway.

From an outburst, yes, but that's it.

And? Omnidirectional blasting is something the IG and other cosmics can do. None of them have stopped any outburst, except the Living Tribunal. And they've had enough tries to prove it.

Here's another outburst they couldn't stop even though they're trying.
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00248ha.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00255ox.jpg

Yet another outburst and of the same.
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00330gf.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00346aq.jpg

Nor has it tried besides Warlock's outburst.

Because Warlock didn't dare try another after his outburst against the court's jurisdiction after the Tribunal shut him up to allow Eternity to present his case. After LT did that all we got from him was threats and more frowning. He even threatened the Living Tribunal to only have Tribunal rule against him.

A complete IG has never existed after Warlock separated the gems (not a cannon one anyway).

No because Thanos had the reality gem.

Assumed, but I won't argue against it since logically it makes sense.

Not assumed. Eternity requested as much that it's power never be used again no matter the dire circumstances. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't Warlock who he was talking to, the guy was in a coma.

Again, I don't have to, because I'm not trying to prove it's more powerful than the LT. It's you who has to show the LT is more powerful than the IG since that is what you're claiming, and the ONLY thing you have to go on that is on panel is the LT resisting and cancelling out Warlock's outburst. Impressive? Yes, but not definitive of superior power. All it shows is that he's superior to the other abstracts. Also, in that same panel, a Celestial was shown as also still standing against that same blast, albeit with effort. But we know the IG can crush that same Celestial as it has done it before.

True he was arrogant at the time but never once during or after he agreed with the judgment does he admit that the LT's power is above the IG's. The pic given here only supports Warlock (after judgment) that the LT's boss is above all gods, not the LT himself.

Court started and Warlock already begins to doubt the courts juridiction over him and TOAA's power compared to his own. Soon as the case began, Eternity accues him of being mentally unfit to weild the IG. What's his respond? He's the "supreme being and incompable of mental deficiacy."

He continues to rambles on about his service to the universe and then goes, "I SHALL SURREND IT TO NO ONE!" and blast Eternity and then he continued his attack on the court. It wasn't some outburst. He even says, "I WILL NOT TOLERATE THS EFFRONTERY!!!" That's not just some outburst. He doesn't even think their should be a trial that's why he attacks the everyone in the court. Noone could stop it, Warlock certainly wouldn't. Or do you believe he would attacked the court and then stopped to allow them to continue a trial? He himself says, "HOW DARE YOU SEEK TO JUDGE ME?

The Living Tribunal that stopped it with a snap of the finger and having Warlock wondering "how?" If LT hadn't stopped Warlock Eternity would not even get his chance to present a case. Warlock after that was on the defensive throughout but never did he again question the court's juridiction. When he knew the judgement was about to be passed that he tried to influence LT through a threat and then another threat after LT judges against him.

To which the Living Tribunal:

Already established. Stopping the gems from working together isn't the same as taking them down after they are together.

And you knew he couldn't? By what reasonning? Cause he didn't automatic kill that power right away and gave Warlock a chance to forfeit it's power it means he couldn't? It's not like the Tribunal to not give people chance.

He's the Living Tribunal not the Punisher. He gives them chances before he destroys their universe or world. He's always done things this way. Either hold a trial or given them a chance to fix the mistake. Him reasoning with Warlock doesn't mean he couldn't have stripped it of it's power. He destroy's realities if need be. Both knew what would happen, Warlock admit as much that he knew the outcome. He was just too arrogant and stubborn to admit it.

As far as the Phoenix comment goes, I've never argued for or against it, so the comment is pointless.

You didn't. And I apologize.

And you also see the Celestial standing his ground as well, but we know that he is inferior to the IG in battle. All we know from this scene is that the LT's power is above the abstracts. You can't say that taking one blast from someone with no effect is a show of superior power. [/B]

He's the only one in the court to do so. Unless I missed a part where the abstracts have even done such a thing to the IG power. Even throughtout the court Warlock was in frustration and concern till the very end. LT went through with no show of concern even after Warlock wanted to fight the judgement.

There are too many instances in comic book history showing otherwise.

And instances enough to say reasoning is a weakness? Especially for one whose given chances to the Earth and the universe to survive once an error has been fixed. Him giving Warlock a chance to give up the power is in character.

Originally posted by celestialdemon

The LT reversed an outburst of rage by Warlock. Yes, very impressive but not definitive of superior power. When Molecule Man reversed all the damage that the Beyonder caused with the wave of his finger, did anyone say that immediately made him more powerful?

He fixed it afterwards. Thats' different from stopping someone mid attack.

True, he didn't back down, but that's no indication of power. It just says that he will do battle to see his judgment passed. Thanos also didn't back down from Odin or Tyrant, and Captain America didn't back down from Thanos.

It is when Warlock's whining was stopped by the LT so that the case could actually begin. It barely got started before Warlock decided that he wouldn't "tolerate their effrontery." And then started kicking everyone's ass. I guess that was his defense on the accusation...and the court's jurisdiction to even hold the trial.

So by your logic, if the LT determined he didn't have the power to stop Warlock, then he wouldn't have ruled against him? But we know that isn't true, because he went up against and lost to Thanos with the HOTU. His rulings are based on cosmic law, not by determining if he has the power to win a fight or not.

By your logic, the Living Tribunal is really the Punisher in disguise. He goes around and nukes universes if they so as much look like a threat to the multiverse. Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG. LT gave him a chance to give up his power. It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away. In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.

Look, they could come out with a comic tomorrow that shows the LT spanking Eternity with the IG with one hand tied behind his back, and I will gladly admit his superiority. I'm not anti-LT. On other boards, I've defended him in debates that stated the IG was superior to him. My position always has been and always will be (until shown otherwise on panel) that neither one is superior to the other. [/B]

Then this will never be resolved. Not between you and I. 😉 Good debate, however.

Originally posted by leonidas
i basically said that about 15 pgs ago, newjak. 😉

ps-worried about your second round match up yet . . .? 😈

Originally posted by leonidas
your first point about m-bodies is well taken, but as an m-body they don't possess their full power (obviously or their would be nothing left behind), and if a universe were 'dying' it seems they would need their full power.

That's what I don't get about full powered. Every display of power is through M-bodies only, so is every interactions with the physical. I've yet to see an entire universe attack anybody, but their M-bodies sure.

in any event, it doesn't seem like the job of healing other universes should come down to the embodiments of specific universes. jut my opinion . . . 😬

No it's not their job. But I wouldn't say it's out of their reach. Like you stated Giruad of the Guardian's of the Galaxy has helped Eternity fight a disease. Galactus also destroyed bands that put Eternity into a comatose. Eternity couldn't fix himself it he were sick or in a comatose but I don't think it's out of his power to do so for alternate Eternity.

the gotg 35-37 was the arc, i think. the 'healing' may have taken place in 36 or 37. it was just before dormammu showed up. and in galactic guardians giraud battled the multiversal entity ubiquitor.

but . . . you never answered my question: do you think beyonder is at his secret wars level . . .? 😖hifty: [/B]

Thanks.

Originally posted by Mr Master

You can believe what ever you wish to believe...

If Universes fixed themselves..why did Phoenix have to fix that other Universe?

Well because since it was a Phoenix feat it could not have..it HAD to be fixed by Phoenix....ONE Universe...when ALL universes were in jeopardy.

And Abraxas is not out there...otherwise Roma would know and the Multiverse would still be falling apart.

Because Galactus is born from the heart of Eternity&Infinity(single Universe).
That's how you know

Wrong...

They are not the Multi-version

Eternity&Infinity exist in all universes as a single Universe...Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of the Multiverse.

Again, I showed you why.

Nice try...but Abraxas didn't cause a domino effect by killing Reed in 616.
His power is... Multiversal...he killed every Reed because he had the power to not because what happens in 616 resonates through out the Multiverse...hell NO your opinion is NOT equal to mine.

That's even rediculous...so every action that takes place in 616 must occur in every Universe? Is that what your saying?

And READ this carefully...

Abraxas killed his FIRST Galactus OUTSIDE 616. Fantastic Four Annual 2001

You have...and I honestly respect your opinion..but you have been leaning towards one side though.

And the reason I've been harsh with this gs...is because of his snyde remarks and insulting sarcasm..like if he's debating with idiots beneath him, when he lies to make you feel that way..and if you read the first response on the first page...it's to an insult of his.

I hope you see the simple wisdom in this post.

cool. 😉

now to a couple of your points:

1. <<It couldn't have been selective...because every Galactus in the Multiverse died.>>

wrong, mm. while looking for the UN ben grim was in a reality where he was BATTLING galactus . . . abraxus didn't kill 'every' galactus. 🙁

2. <<If Universes fixed themselves..why did Phoenix have to fix that other Universe?>>

not sure what you're gatting at here. i would guess it depends on what the problem is. in this case, the pf wasn't needed to fix anything. the problem was righted.

3. <<And Abraxas is not out there...otherwise Roma would know and the Multiverse would still be falling apart.>>

i'd wager you'll be proven wrong on this point at some point in the future. abraxus was too cool. marvel will find a way to rbing him back.

4. <<Because Galactus is born from the heart of Eternity&Infinity(single Universe).That's how you know

Wrong... They are not the Multi-version>>

good . . . 😕 i SAID they weren't the multi-versions, and even explained WHY i thought they weren't . . . the fact that they were the SINGULAR version, only HELPS my theory . . .

5. <<Nice try...but Abraxas didn't cause a domino effect by killing Reed in 616. His power is... Multiversal...he killed every Reed because he had the power to not because what happens in 616 resonates through out the Multiverse...hell NO your opinion is NOT equal to mine.

That's even rediculous...so every action that takes place in 616 must occur in every Universe? Is that what your saying?>>

this one has me stumped. the novas were killing reed. show me ANYTHING that supports the notion that abraxus was attacking/killing reed. and if it WAS abraxus, why stop the attack? it makes no sense. abraxus watched the novas stretch him almost to death and as he watched, he showed reed that even as he was dying, the other reeds were dying too. so abraxus suddenly stopped attacking ALL of them? why, so he could chat with valeria?? makes no sense. on the other hand, we already KNOW for a fact that 616 is special and unique -- it is the universe the birthed the very FIRST galactus. and why would it matter where abraxus killed hi first galactus? the problem started in 616 when galactus died and abraxus was freed. by rebooting the 616 and setting everything right, the correction could have resonated through the impacted universes -- obviously no need to resonate through EVERY universe because i showed you you were wrong about all the galactuses being killed . . .

i don't suppose either opinion carries more weight than the other, but i have the additional proof of eternity (the SINGULAR eternity even you agreed) being reset at the end. if it were a multiversal reset as you claim, wouldn't it need to be MULTI-eternity being reset . . .?

the reason i stepped into this thread to begin with was because i was a bit put offby the number of people who never engaged gs in a debate but who were quick to jump all over him and hop onto your bandwagon, praising you as a savior for this thread. you brought up some good and not so good points. ultimately though i don't think the debate can be reconciled. as i said before, there is a marvel universe pf (the one you are showcasing in this thread) and the x-verse pf (the one gs is showcasing). the 2 versions seem completely incompatible imo.

ps--gs CAN be an arrogant bastich at times. but damn, he makes for some entertaining posts! 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
the reason i stepped into this thread to begin with was because i was a bit put offby the number of people who never engaged gs in a debate but who were quick to jump all over him and hop onto your bandwagon, praising you as a savior for this thread. you brought up some good and not so good points. ultimately though i don't think the debate can be reconciled. as i said before, there is a marvel universe pf (the one you are showcasing in this thread) and the x-verse pf (the one gs is showcasing). the 2 versions seem completely incompatible imo.

ps--gs CAN be an arrogant bastich at times. but damn, he makes for some entertaining posts! 😄

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No it's not their job. But I wouldn't say it's out of their reach. Like you stated Giruad of the Guardian's of the Galaxy has helped Eternity fight a disease. Galactus also destroyed bands that put Eternity into a comatose. Eternity couldn't fix himself it he were sick or in a comatose but I don't think it's out of his power to do so for alternate Eternity.

meh. maybe not. but it still doesn't sit well in my mind. why would eternity -- thew sum and totality of it's OWN universe, bother with another universe? and how would it even know another was in distress? someone outside, watching would CERTAINLY know, and be able to render aid. it's a more . . . elegant solution imo. 😉

Originally posted by newjak86
I think this is all that needs to be said in this thread

wow, i'm impressed newjak! you read that beast of a post . . . 😮

😆

anyway, thanks. 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
wow, i'm impressed newjak! you read that beast of a post . . . 😮

😆

anyway, thanks. 😉

Originally posted by newjak86
well all I can say is I've faced off against GS before and had to read those posts. Yours are but a short stroy created by a kid with ADD with something shiny in front of them compered to those.

umm, thanks?

😑

Originally posted by leonidas
umm, thanks?

😑

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And? Omnidirectional blasting is something the IG and other cosmics can do. None of them have stopped any outburst, except the Living Tribunal. And they've had enough tries to prove it.

Here's another outburst they couldn't stop even though they're trying.
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00248ha.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00255ox.jpg

Yet another outburst and of the same.
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00330gf.jpg
http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ig00346aq.jpg

All this proves is that he is above the other abstracts. That's it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Because Warlock didn't dare try another after his outburst against the court's jurisdiction after the Tribunal shut him up to allow Eternity to present his case. After LT did that all we got from him was threats and more frowning. He even threatened the Living Tribunal to only have Tribunal rule against him.

You're right. He tried to threaten the LT, and it didn't work. But the LT's judgment is based on cosmic law, not based on power. If he was any kind of judge, he would have ruled against Warlock regardless of whether he had the power to stop him or not. And even though Warlock's threat didn't work, the LT claimed that his authority came from on high, yet he still had to take time to determine if he had the power to beat Warlock. Whether he did or not was never proven.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No because Thanos had the reality gem.

True

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Not assumed. Eternity requested as much that it's power never be used again no matter the dire circumstances. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't Warlock who he was talking to, the guy was in a coma.

Not sure of the direct quote, but Eternity said something like "the power the Living Tribunal possesses will never be able to remove the safeguards again". I'll get the exact quote later. Regardless, it's safe to assume tht the LT is the one putting on the safeguards since he did it the first time.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Court started and Warlock already begins to doubt the courts juridiction over him and TOAA's power compared to his own. Soon as the case began, Eternity accues him of being mentally unfit to weild the IG. What's his respond? He's the "supreme being and incompable of mental deficiacy."

He continues to rambles on about his service to the universe and then goes, "I SHALL SURREND IT TO NO ONE!" and blast Eternity and then he continued his attack on the court. It wasn't some outburst. He even says, "I WILL NOT TOLERATE THS EFFRONTERY!!!" That's not just some outburst. He doesn't even think their should be a trial that's why he attacks the everyone in the court. Noone could stop it, Warlock certainly wouldn't. Or do you believe he would attacked the court and then stopped to allow them to continue a trial? He himself says, "HOW DARE YOU SEEK TO JUDGE ME?

The Living Tribunal that stopped it with a snap of the finger and having Warlock wondering "how?" If LT hadn't stopped Warlock Eternity would not even get his chance to present a case. Warlock after that was on the defensive throughout but never did he again question the court's juridiction. When he knew the judgement was about to be passed that he tried to influence LT through a threat and then another threat after LT judges against him.

To which the Living Tribunal:

I'm sure Warlock was very surprised by the LT's power. Remember, he never even knew of him before the IG series. The IG just got done beating down all the abstracts put together. On top of that, Warlock just got done orchestrating the battle plan that saved all the abstracts' butts. Warlock was of course arrogant. If you recall at the beginning, he doubted that the LT was as powerful as the other abstracts claimed. Once the LT showed him there was someone out there who can honestly challenge his power, Warlock shut up. But neither of them knew each other's powers well enough to know if they could beat the other.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And you knew he couldn't? By what reasonning? Cause he didn't automatic kill that power right away and gave Warlock a chance to forfeit it's power it means he couldn't? It's not like the Tribunal to not give people chance.

He's the Living Tribunal not the Punisher. He gives them chances before he destroys their universe or world. He's always done things this way. Either hold a trial or given them a chance to fix the mistake. Him reasoning with Warlock doesn't mean he couldn't have stripped it of it's power. He destroy's realities if need be. Both knew what would happen, Warlock admit as much that he knew the outcome. He was just too arrogant and stubborn to admit it.

You don't have to prove that someone CAN'T do something. You have to prove that they CAN. The LT never got the opportunity to prove he could take it or not. As such, stating his power is above the IG or not is opinion only, not fact.

The outcome they both knew was Warlock submitting to the LT's judgment. Time repeated for them. They have redone the incident countless times. Not once did they mention they knew what the outcome of a battle would be. The only thing the LT knew was that reality would be destroyed in their wake.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You didn't. And I apologize.

Accepted.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He's the only one in the court to do so. Unless I missed a part where the abstracts have even done such a thing to the IG power. Even throughtout the court Warlock was in frustration and concern till the very end. LT went through with no show of concern even after Warlock wanted to fight the judgement.

Again, that just proves he's above the other abstracts. Of course the LT didn't show any concern. He knew they weren't going to fight even though he himself said he had to determine how his power matched up with Warlock's. Warlock knew as well, but he reacted differently. He even said that the most maddening thing for him was how he always reacted every time they relived that incident.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And instances enough to say reasoning is a weakness? Especially for one whose given chances to the Earth and the universe to survive once an error has been fixed. Him giving Warlock a chance to give up the power is in character.

It's not a weakness. I'm not concerned with how the LT does his job. My concern is that they never brought their full power against each other. The only time they emanated power was when they stood face to face after the judgment. Neither one was phased by the other while the other abstracts were blown away.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He fixed it afterwards. Thats' different from stopping someone mid attack.

It is when Warlock's whining was stopped by the LT so that the case could actually begin. It barely got started before Warlock decided that he wouldn't "tolerate their effrontery." And then started kicking everyone's ass. I guess that was his defense on the accusation...and the court's jurisdiction to even hold the trial.

You have to remember that the LT is unknown to Warlock. The first time he met him was during this IG series. The power he was releasing was an unknown amount. It was enough to blow back most of the abstracts and not affect the LT. With more power, who knows. Thanos let out a fit of rage, and that power merely shook places like Asgard and Earth. If Thanos wanted to, he could have easily destroyed both in the blink of an eye.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By your logic, the Living Tribunal is really the Punisher in disguise. He goes around and nukes universes if they so as much look like a threat to the multiverse. Warlock had just saved the universe and thought he was deserving of the IG. LT gave him a chance to give up his power. It doesn't mean he couldn't have taken it away. In the past, he's given people chances to rectify problems before he takes action.

😆 If he was the Punisher, he would have his fourth face be a skull. You're right. He did give Warlock the chance to give up his power, which Warlock did. But that doesn't mean there is a clear indication that he COULD take the IG from Warlock if Warlock didn't. Not even the LT himself knew. He's not omniscient. He may have been powerful enough to take it away. We don't know. That's the point.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Then this will never be resolved. Not between you and I. 😉 Good debate, however.

Very good. I'm having fun. Makes work go by really fast.

i could not possibly agree with you more, celestial. you've read the battle and interpretted it exactly the same way i did. the bio of lt seems to say that lt>ig. fine, i can accept that. perhaps that WAS marvel's intention, but in that confrontation (i posted scans of th whole thing a few pages back) i really don't see how anyone can claim lt was superior in that meeting. 😬

you said you don't think the ultraforce/avengers was canon -- that's where the gems were reunited (in direct opposition to lt's judgment and where the gem being came back) -- what makes you believe it wasn't canon? was it rtconned and i missed it . . .? 😕

Celestial Demon is GS.

Originally posted by Takion
Celestial Demon is GS.

Another Split Personality? 😆

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Another Split Personality? 😆