Phoenix Force vs a Multiversal Power......Phoenix get's Crushed!

Finally someone shut that BSer GS up. his arguments are more biased, twisted to help him, and ignorent than they are fact

Originally posted by Takion
Celestial Demon is GS.

Um, no. I don't know jack about the history of the Phoenix force except from what I've seen on the animated cartoon. I've always hated the idea of a cosmic force of that magnitude uniting with a "lowly" mutant to make her that damn powerful.

Originally posted by leonidas
while looking for the UN ben grim was in a reality where he was BATTLING galactus . . . abraxus didn't kill 'every' galactus.

There was ONE Galactus still alive...

Doesn't change the facts at all though.

Originally posted by leonidas
Mr. Master said, "If Universes fixed themselves..why did Phoenix have to fix that other Universe?"

not sure what you're gatting at here. i would guess it depends on what the problem is. in this case, the pf wasn't needed to fix anything. the problem was righted.

My point exactly..that's what I'm getting at..

Since it was a Phoenix feat...the Universe was not able to repair itself...Phoenix had to do it.

On the other hand since the Ultimate Nullifier Remade the Multiverse..no, no..that doesn't make sense...Now Universes can repair themselves...interesting.

Originally posted by leonidas
Mr Master said, "And Abraxas is not out there...otherwise Roma would know and the Multiverse would still be falling apart"

i'd wager you'll be proven wrong on this point at some point in the future. abraxus was too cool. marvel will find a way to rbing him back.

Speculation and logic vs Facts..

Abraxas is dead and gone.
Like I said first Roma would know...who perceives every inbalance in the Multiverse as the Multiversal Guardian...and secondly the Multiverse would still be collapsing if Abraxas were still alive.

Originally posted by leonidas
Mr Master said, "Because Galactus is born from the heart of Eternity&Infinity(single Universe)"

Wrong... They are not the Multi-version>>

i SAID they weren't the multi-versions, and even explained WHY i thought they weren't . . . the fact that they were the SINGULAR version, only HELPS my theory

Now I'm confused.
I never said Galactus was born from the Multi-version of Eternity/Infinity.
I clearly said he was resurrected from the heart of Eternity/Infinity(the SINGLE Universe).

How this helps your theories is beyond me.

Don't get lost...
Eternity/Infinity(Single or Multi)look the same

Originally posted by leonidas
Mr Master said, "but Abraxas didn't cause a domino effect by killing Reed in 616. His power is... Multiversal...he killed every Reed because he had the power to not because what happens in 616 resonates through out the Multiverse.
That's even rediculous...so every action that takes place in 616 must occur in every Universe? Is that what your saying?"

the novas were killing reed. show me ANYTHING that supports the notion that abraxus was attacking/killing reed. and if it WAS abraxus, why stop the attack? it makes no sense. abraxus watched the novas stretch him almost to death and as he watched, he showed reed that even as he was dying, the other reeds were dying too. so abraxus suddenly stopped attacking ALL of them? why, so he could chat with valeria?? makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you...because apparently even having the issues you don't realize how powerful Abraxas is.
He was torturing Reed..he didn't need Nova to kill Reed, lol. This is why he was killing Reed slowly in every Universe at the same time.

He killed nearly every Galactus in the Multiverse...are you kidding me...he could of blinked Reed out of existence.

And why stop the attack? He never did... he was taking his time, savoring Reed's death...he's totally evil..his very purpose is to destroy everything...he is the embodiment of Galactus's WILL to destroy.

And by the way..the very next page, after he began to torture Reed and his otherselves nearly to death...Franklyn and Valeria step up to the plate...while Reed is still dying slowly...two pages later, Galactus is being resurrected.

Originally posted by leonidas
on the other hand, we already KNOW for a fact that 616 is special and unique -- it is the universe the birthed the very FIRST galactus. the problem started in 616 when galactus died and abraxus was freed. by rebooting the 616 and setting everything right, the correction could have resonated through the impacted universes -- obviously no need to resonate through EVERY universe because i showed you you were wrong about all the galactuses being killed

More speculation....and it's time to prove it wrong with on panel proof.

First just see how powerful Abraxas is with this feat amongst others.
Abraxas takes away the Watchers memory.

Now:

Here's Abraxas saying clearly that he himself killed other Galactus's they didn't just die off because the 616 version died.

Here Reed say's the same thing...in another Universe Galactus has been MURDERED...he didn't just die off because the 616 version died.

Here Reed says "our Earth is merging with other Alternates"...how can this be...unless the entire Multiverse is misaligned.

Here Nova says "creatures of the MULTIVERSE Mixing --- Reality folding onto itself" again this Multiversal misalignment is literally ripping the Multiverse apart.

Finally what does this lead to?
Reed, "In order to REALIGN ALL that is...we had to END ALL that was.
What was MISALIGNED? The MULTI-VERSE!

If you come up with another theory rather than admit to the obvious fact ...there's nothing more to talk about.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't suppose either opinion carries more weight than the other, but i have the additional proof of eternity (the SINGULAR eternity even you agreed) being reset at the end. if it were a multiversal reset as you claim, wouldn't it need to be MULTI-eternity being reset . . .?

I won't call you a liar and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say...you must of completely misunderstood me at some point...
Because I NEVER said, "eternity (the SINGULAR eternity even you agreed) being reset at the end"

For the record I did NOT agree with you..Multi-Eternity/Infinity(the MULTIVERSE)was Destroyed and Remade at the end....I proved it with on panel facts.

Originally posted by leonidas
i was a bit put offby the number of people who never engaged gs in a debate but who were quick to jump all over him and hop onto your bandwagon, praising you as a savior for this thread.

Evidently that's your man and all...but he is notorious around here for twisting facts..tampering with evidence, like showing you a scan and then mixing it with his own bias intepretation to serve his personal agenda.

And everything I posted was true backed up with scans.
Except for the Death scan, which I admittedly made a mistake with.

You say the Infinity Being was not the prior Universe..I say show me any other beginning thats on panel and I'll except that.

Galactus's origin...the biggest disgrace yet committed by Marvel...Phoenix was literally jammed into that story by some "bio writer". On panel though that never happened...Eternity created Galactus and protected Galactus during his birth on panel.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i said before, there is a marvel universe pf (the one you are showcasing in this thread) and the x-verse pf (the one gs is showcasing). the 2 versions seem completely incompatible imo.

On this we agree 100%.

Originally posted by Mr Master
There was ONE Galactus still alive...

Doesn't change the facts at all though.

actually, it changes everything. it dictates that the 'whole multiverse' had no reason to be reset. so . . . was the UN selective in his recreation of the multiverse or did it wipe out the universes that were already all right? and how on earth can you conceiveably claim that there was only ONE galactus left?? first you said none. now you say one. how do you know how many were actually left, let alone state it in a way that sounds like you're stating a fact??

My point exactly..that's what I'm getting at..

Since it was a Phoenix feat...the Universe was not able to repair itself...Phoenix had to do it.

On the other hand since the Ultimate Nullifier Remade the Multiverse..no, no..that doesn't make sense...Now Universes can repair themselves...interesting.

again, it likely depends on the problem. thanos with the hotu was an idiot: all knowledge and power and he didn't know all he needed to do was use the UN to wipe everything out and he could have KEPT his power. the comparisons you're trying to make don't work for a million reasons. and as the impacted universes appeared to be starnge mirrors of our own, and ours was unique already, i see no reason not to believe something in 616 could impact these others.

Speculation and logic vs Facts..

Abraxas is dead and gone.
Like I said first Roma would know...who perceives every inbalance in the Multiverse as the Multiversal Guardian...and secondly the Multiverse would still be collapsing if Abraxas were still alive.

mostly a joke . . .

Don't get lost...
Eternity/Infinity(Single or Multi)look the same

i'll try, gs . . . 🙄

It makes no sense to you...because apparently even having the issues you don't realize how powerful Abraxas is.
He was torturing Reed..he didn't need Nova to kill Reed, lol. This is why he was killing Reed slowly in every Universe at the same time.

😆

please show me where i said he needed the novas to do the job . . . and you still never showed me anything that indicates abraxas was attacking reed . . . and you accuse me earlier of speculating and pride yourself on on-panel evidence? how you can look at that page and say abraxas was 'torturing' and killing reed i have absolutely no idea . . .

He killed nearly every Galactus in the Multiverse...are you kidding me...he could of blinked Reed out of existence.

but earlier you swore up and down it was EVERY galactus . . .

And why stop the attack? He never did... he was taking his time, savoring Reed's death...he's totally evil..his very purpose is to destroy everything...he is the embodiment of Galactus's WILL to destroy.

i trust that sounds weak even to you . . . he was . . . savoring it?? 😕 show me some indication of this, please. once again, you accuse me of speculating and yet you hand me this as an argument . . .?

For the record I did NOT agree with you..Multi-Eternity/Infinity(the MULTIVERSE)was Destroyed and Remade at the end....I proved it with on panel facts.

you proved it was a multiversal (other universal because obviously the problem didn't exist in the whole multiverse . . .) problem. i've never disagreed with that. we disagree with how it was resolved. you say the UN wiped out the multiverse including those universes that didn't need to be wiped out (because apparently you think it was multi-eternity at the end . . .) or it was selectively destroying only certain universes. i say once the problem was fixed in 616, the realities that mirrored (and were obviously tied already to 616 given the beings who peopled them) 616 were also fixed. and again we were already unique with the first galactus. why not these mirrors? as for reeds use of 'all' in that other scan, wasn't you that said earlier eternity is often claimed to be infinite and the all . . .?

Evidently that's your man and all...but he is notorious around here for twisting facts..tampering with evidence, like showing you a scan and then mixing it with his own bias intepretation to serve his personal agenda.

And everything I posted was true backed up with scans.
Except for the Death scan, which I admittedly made a mistake with.

You say the Infinity Being was not the prior Universe..I say show me any other beginning thats on panel and I'll except that.

Galactus's origin...the biggest disgrace yet committed by Marvel...Phoenix was literally jammed into that story by some "bio writer". On panel though that never happened...Eternity created Galactus and protected Galactus during his birth on panel.
[/B]

gs can deal with your slander, but i'll add that many people actually get on quite well with him. and your dislike/unwillingness to accept retcons is meaningless to this or any debate.

you're right in one regard though: we likely have nothing more to discuss as it is quite apparent we'll not be seeing eye-to-eye anytime soon . . .

Originally posted by leonidas

This speaks for itself, Can anyone(unbiased)comment on this and tell me what you get from these scans?

Is it not the Multiverse that's being MENTIONED...

is it not the Multiverse as it CLEARLY reads that's collapsing/folding...

is it not the Multiverse that's MISALIGNED...

isn't Reed talking about the Multiverse, when he says, "in order to REALIGN all that is...we needed to end all that was".

What was MISALIGNED?

The MULTIVERSE...NOT part of it...NOT 616...ONLY the Multiverse is mentioned as folding in on itself.

Am I really seeing anything else....NO NEED for laughing smiles duke...just FACTS.

Here's Abraxas saying clearly that he himself killed other Galactus's they didn't just die off because the 616 version died.

Here Reed say's the same thing...in another Universe Galactus has been MURDERED...he didn't just die off because the 616 version died.

Here Reed says "our Earth is merging with other Alternates"...how can this be...unless the entire Multiverse is misaligned.

Here Nova says "creatures of the MULTIVERSE Mixing --- Reality folding onto itself" again this Multiversal misalignment is literally ripping the Multiverse apart.

Finally what does this lead to?
Reed, "In order to REALIGN ALL that is...we had to END ALL that was.
What was MISALIGNED? The MULTI-VERSE!

Originally posted by celestialdemon
You have to remember that the LT is unknown to Warlock. The first time he met him was during this IG series.

It still didn't mean he was clueless. He didn't know all the cosmics yet he knew their combined powers were not a match for the Infinity Gauntlet. This was without the Gauntlet. With it he easily moved but and forth through time and knew what would happen. Gamora with just the Time gem was able to sell Warlock captured by the Magus during Infinity War.

Warlock telling them they're no match for the IG even though alot of them are unknown to him.

The power he was releasing was an unknown amount. It was enough to blow back most of the abstracts and not affect the LT. With more power, who knows. Thanos let out a fit of rage, and that power merely shook places like Asgard and Earth.

That's the difference. Thanos' example was a mere outburst with no intentions of any target. Warlock did not deem that the court had any juridiction over him and hence he attacked the court. He even states "how dare you seek to judge me?" while look straight at the Living Tribunal that struck that court. That was hardly just an outburst. He tried to stop the trial by attacking the court.

If Thanos wanted to, he could have easily destroyed both in the blink of an eye.

He could've done the same with the cosmics but he didn't and still proved their superior. Nebula and Warlock could've done that anytime but them choosing not to doesn't mean the attacks were any weaker. Each of the three merely wanted to beat the cosmics done rather than blinking them out. Warlock removed Eternity easily after the trial.

Against the Living Tribunal, the IG has come up short. It has offensive affect LT and it's we reversed by LT and LT only.

😆 If he was the Punisher, he would have his fourth face be a skull. You're right. He did give Warlock the chance to give up his power, which Warlock did. But that doesn't mean there is a clear indication that he COULD take the IG from Warlock if Warlock didn't. Not even the LT himself knew. He's not omniscient. He may have been powerful enough to take it away. We don't know. That's the point.

I'll agree with you that it isn't clear if he could've just turned off that power straight up. But I disagree on superiority between the two. The IG hasn't done a thing to prove on it hurt the LT over affect his power like he has it. He went throughout the entire trial mellow, even to the very end where as Warlock was mostly defensive especially when the ruling came and then when LT ruled. Warlock my not have complete omnicence but he was clueless as to how was more powerful of the two.

Very good. I'm having fun. Makes work go by really fast. [/B]

Tsk, tsk. They paid you to work, not to play. 🤣

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]you proved it was a multiversal (other universal because obviously the problem didn't exist in the whole multiverse . . .) problem. i've never disagreed with that. we disagree with how it was resolved. you say the UN wiped out the multiverse including those universes that didn't need to be wiped out (because apparently you think it was multi-eternity at the end . . .) or it was selectively destroying only certain universes.

Say it was selective destroying and not all was universes were affected by Abraxas. Let's just say that was that case. It would bring up a simple question wouldn't it? Which universes is affected by Abraxas? He needs to know that before he uses it, the UN does not give you omniscense. You have to know your target. Why do that when destroying the whole multiverse and recreating it would yield the best result as Reed doesn't need to find out every universe that Abraxas ravaged.

i say once the problem was fixed in 616, the realities that mirrored (and were obviously tied already to 616 given the beings who peopled them) 616 were also fixed. and again we were already unique with the first galactus. why not these mirrors? as for reeds use of 'all' in that other scan, wasn't you that said earlier eternity is often claimed to be infinite and the all . . .?

True universal Eternity does often say all. But in the Abraxas saga Reed found out what that there's a multiversal Eternity. As for the alternate universe case, they're just alternate versions. What happens to one does not mean it happens to all. That'd be like saying death of any being in one universe would result in the death of every alternate universe version for no reason at all, the just drop dead because one of their alternates had died. Galactus 616 was revived, that didn't revive the other Galactuses.

WhiteWitchKing

& Newjak86

have given the most sound explanations of what's going on in the hierarchy of Marvel.

WhiteWitchKing did a phenomenal job in breaking down the hierarchy including the Phoenix Force.

Newjak86 gave us the logic between the two opposing forces(writers)in the company of Marvel...

What I have gained from both...while including my own opinion based on the facts, is this hierarchy now.

In the Marvel Multiverse

1. TOAA
😮bviously:

2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...

3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)

4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:

5. Ultimate Nullifier
😮bliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.

6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:

7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.

8. Phoenix Force/Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death

9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.

Phoenix can be "god" for all I care in that X-verse whatever universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This speaks for itself, Can anyone(unbiased)comment on this and tell me what you get from these scans?

Is it not the Multiverse that's being MENTIONED...

is it not the Multiverse as it CLEARLY reads that's collapsing/folding...

is it not the Multiverse that's MISALIGNED...

isn't Reed talking about the Multiverse, when he says, "in order to REALIGN all that is...we needed to end all that was".

What was MISALIGNED?

The MULTIVERSE...NOT part of it...NOT 616...ONLY the Multiverse is mentioned as folding in on itself.

Am I really seeing anything else....NO NEED for laughing smiles duke...just FACTS.

i actually applaud the brevity of your post because it really sort of boils things down. for my part, this is my final post on a topic that is WAY off thread topic. once again, he killed galactuses. not EVERY galactus as you first said. not all galactuses but ONE as you also said. if there was one galactus there were likely others -- at least that seems a logical conclusion to me. after all, the multiverse is a big place.

your scans once again DO show the multiverse was in jeopardy. IF abraxus would have won, he COULD have continued killing all the galactuses upsetting the balance even further than he had. but not every universe was in danger and not all galactuses were wiped out. so, that brings us back to the question: did the UN wipe out even the universes that didn't NEED to be wiped out (ie - they still HAD galactus in it) or was it selectively destroying them?

the irony and beauty of your position is that it relies in absolutely every single way upon these scans:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18422555333.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18422571956.jpg&s=f10

now, in the first scan we SEE reed attack, and, more importantly, we SEE abraxas's response to the attack -- he sends a bunch of novas at him.

in the second scan, we see the novas stretching him near to death, reed screams and falls -- and note -- he is STILL ON FIRE. now, somehow, in that second scan, it is your contention that after the novas leave the scene abraxas himself takes up the attack and begins killing (even though reed appears to have been nearly killed by the novas and we saw the novas were his reply to reed's initial attack . . .) and torturing reed and that beyond that he is . . . savoring his victory over reed?

i truly do not get it. a final point then i leave it to any unbiased lurker to decide for them themselves: in the first scan we see a sign of power from abraxas when he 'sicks' the novas on reed -- the little bubbles around his eyes. nothing like that in the second scan where you seem to state (earlier you seemed to state it as a FACT) that abraxas himself took up the attack on reed. a small point, but still . . .

now, why are THESE 2 scans so important? simple: if you believe abraxas somehow took up the attack, then you are also likely to believe he used his power AT THAT TIME to begin killing all the other reeds. if that's the case, the near-death of 616 reed did NOT impact the mirror-universes which in turn renders my little theory null and void. 🙁

but, if you believe it was the novas who nearly killed reed ( 😄 ), then it follows that abraxas had nothing to do with the near-deaths of these other reeds and 616 reed's near-death DID resound/impact the mirror-universes.

so, if you think the novas did the job on reed (as appears to me to be quite clearly shown in the scans) then step to the front of the class!! if you think somehow after the novas left abraxas took up the attack on reed, then . . . go sit in the corner!! 😄

ahh, the power of interpretation.

can't say it hasn't been fun, mm. well, mostly fun . . . 😉

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Say it was selective destroying and not all was universes were affected by Abraxas. Let's just say that was that case. It would bring up a simple question wouldn't it? Which universes is affected by Abraxas? He needs to know that before he uses it, the UN does not give you omniscense. You have to know your target. Why do that when destroying the whole multiverse and recreating it would yield the best result as Reed doesn't need to find out every universe that Abraxas ravaged.

True universal Eternity does often say all. But in the Abraxas saga Reed found out what that there's a multiversal Eternity. As for the alternate universe case, they're just alternate versions. What happens to one does not mean it happens to all. That'd be like saying death of any being in one universe would result in the death of every alternate universe version for no reason at all, the just drop dead because one of their alternates had died. Galactus 616 was revived, that didn't revive the other Galactuses.

THANK YOU!!!!

Yo King... I copied your outlook on the Phoenix Force along with the corresponding scans...I thought it was fascinating. I found myself agreeing with everything...it just made sense. I hope to use your take in future debates that involve the PF....with your permission ofcourse, and needless to say youl get the credit at the end of each post.

I always believe I explain myself completely with the scans...but had I said it the way you just did...perhaps it would have been more convincing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THANK YOU!!!!

Yo King... I copied your outlook on the Phoenix Force along with the corresponding scans...I thought it was fascinating. I found myself agreeing with everything...it just made sense. I hope to use your take in future debates that involve the PF....with your permission ofcourse, and needless to say youl get the credit at the end of each post.

I always believe I explain myself completely with the scans...but had I said it the way you just did...perhaps it would have been more convincing.

Just my two cents. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
i actually applaud the brevity of your post because it really sort of boils things down. for my part, this is my final post on a topic that is WAY off thread topic. once again, he killed galactuses. not EVERY galactus as you first said. not all galactuses but ONE as you also said. if there was one galactus there were likely others -- at least that seems a logical conclusion to me. after all, the multiverse is a big place.

your scans once again DO show the multiverse was in jeopardy. IF abraxus would have won, he COULD have continued killing all the galactuses upsetting the balance even further than he had. but not every universe was in danger and not all galactuses were wiped out. so, that brings us back to the question: did the UN wipe out even the universes that didn't NEED to be wiped out (ie - they still HAD galactus in it) or was it selectively destroying them?

the irony and beauty of your position is that it relies in absolutely every single way upon these scans:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18422555333.jpg&s=f10

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18422571956.jpg&s=f10

now, in the first scan we SEE reed attack, and, more importantly, we SEE abraxas's response to the attack -- he sends a bunch of novas at him.

in the second scan, we see the novas stretching him near to death, reed screams and falls -- and note -- he is STILL ON FIRE. now, somehow, in that second scan, it is your contention that after the novas leave the scene abraxas himself takes up the attack and begins killing (even though reed appears to have been nearly killed by the novas and we saw the novas were his reply to reed's initial attack . . .) and torturing reed and that beyond that he is . . . savoring his victory over reed?

i truly do not get it. a final point then i leave it to any unbiased lurker to decide for them themselves: in the first scan we see a sign of power from abraxas when he 'sicks' the novas on reed -- the little bubbles around his eyes. nothing like that in the second scan where you seem to state (earlier you seemed to state it as a FACT) that abraxas himself took up the attack on reed. a small point, but still . . .

now, why are THESE 2 scans so important? simple: if you believe abraxas somehow took up the attack, then you are also likely to believe he used his power AT THAT TIME to begin killing all the other reeds. if that's the case, the near-death of 616 reed did NOT impact the mirror-universes which in turn renders my little theory null and void. 🙁

but, if you believe it was the novas who nearly killed reed ( 😄 ), then it follows that abraxas had nothing to do with the near-deaths of these other reeds and 616 reed's near-death DID resound/impact the mirror-universes.

so, if you think the novas did the job on reed (as appears to me to be quite clearly shown in the scans) then step to the front of the class!! if you think somehow after the novas left abraxas took up the attack on reed, then . . . go sit in the corner!!

This is a respectable post..I can't front.

My arguement actually also includes the scans from another issue incolving Abraxas.

My point is based on whether it was one Galactus that was left or hundreds...it still does not matter..the facts is...which you did agree upon..the entire Multiverse was in jeopardy...you want me to be precise with quotes and claims...that's precision..the Multiverse was folding in on itself..you know it I know..that's what we're told...

And Abraxas was savoring his death not his victory over Reed...

And when did Abraxas begin to torture Reeds to death across the Multiverse?

In your second scan..you can see him gesturing, when he's telling Reed he's dying in all realities.

All it takes is a gesture..if even that.

Now..WhiteWhitchKing said it best:

"Say it was selective destroying and not all was universes were affected by Abraxas. Let's just say that was that case. It would bring up a simple question wouldn't it? Which universes is affected by Abraxas? He needs to know that before he uses it, the UN does not give you omniscense. You have to know your target. Why do that when destroying the whole multiverse and recreating it would yield the best result as Reed doesn't need to find out every universe that Abraxas ravaged." :courtesy of WhiteWitchKing:

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Say it was selective destroying and not all was universes were affected by Abraxas. Let's just say that was that case. It would bring up a simple question wouldn't it? Which universes is affected by Abraxas? He needs to know that before he uses it, the UN does not give you omniscense. You have to know your target. Why do that when destroying the whole multiverse and recreating it would yield the best result as Reed doesn't need to find out every universe that Abraxas ravaged.

True universal Eternity does often say all. But in the Abraxas saga Reed found out what that there's a multiversal Eternity. As for the alternate universe case, they're just alternate versions. What happens to one does not mean it happens to all. That'd be like saying death of any being in one universe would result in the death of every alternate universe version for no reason at all, the just drop dead because one of their alternates had died. Galactus 616 was revived, that didn't revive the other Galactuses.

okay, VERY last post in this thread . . . 😄

your last point is an excellent one -- and one i'd already considered. you jumped to the same conclusion i did. but . . . like i initially did, you're assuming the other galactuses weren't revived. we can't know for sure. they may well have been, but it wouldn't have stopped the problem: abraxus had already been set free. what would have kept him from simply killing them again as he had done? the problem was that abraxas had been set free and that he and galactus existed together in the same universe -- 616. as much as the multiverse was mentioned and explored, 616 was the focal point of teh story -- everything was a strange reflection of 616 so clearly 616 DID impact these universes in SOME way. and it was 616 that needed fixing and if it could be fixed and the effect of the repair resounded through the mirror-universes, there would be no need to destroy the multiverse. the MULTIVERSE! with a weapon galactus said is as much a part of him as his heart. a weapon that is part of a sub-universal entity is capable fo destroying and remaking the entire multiverse? lt too? it just seems too much to me. 😬

is it POSSIBLE that's what the writer intended? sure. i never claimed otherwise. i just said it is my opinion that is NOT what happened. guess this means you think abraxas was the one who rendered 616 reed near-death in that scan, huh? 🙁

meh, you're still a solid and fair debater (judging from your exchange with celestial). maybe next thread we'll find ourselves on the SAME side. 😉

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It still didn't mean he was clueless. He didn't know all the cosmics yet he knew their combined powers were not a match for the Infinity Gauntlet. This was without the Gauntlet. With it he easily moved but and forth through time and knew what would happen. Gamora with just the Time gem was able to sell Warlock captured by the Magus during Infinity War.

Warlock telling them they're no match for the IG even though alot of them are unknown to him.

The fact that he witnessed Thanos and Nebula beat them altogether let him know that they didn't stand a chance against it, regardless of whether he knew them or not. But the IG was never tried against the LT, so he was unsure. For all he knew, he was another abstract on par with Eternity. He was present at the first gathering where Eternity called the LT his peer.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That's the difference. Thanos' example was a mere outburst with no intentions of any target. Warlock did not deem that the court had any juridiction over him and hence he attacked the court. He even states "how dare you seek to judge me?" while look straight at the Living Tribunal that struck that court. That was hardly just an outburst. He tried to stop the trial by attacking the court.

Look at him in all the panels. His face turns completely red, and he looks like he's out of control. He lashes out at everyone around him. The attack blows most back but not all. If he truly wanted to destroy them all (by this I mean all except the LT), he would have done so just as easily as both Thanos and Nebula did. The fact that he didn't means he wasn't trying to, meaning the attack wasn't powerful enough to.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He could've done the same with the cosmics but he didn't and still proved their superior. Nebula and Warlock could've done that anytime but them choosing not to doesn't mean the attacks were any weaker. Each of the three merely wanted to beat the cosmics done rather than blinking them out. Warlock removed Eternity easily after the trial.

Against the Living Tribunal, the IG has come up short. It has offensive affect LT and it's we reversed by LT and LT only.

Thanos wanted to prove his power against them to impress Death. Once Death attacked him, he defeated all of them together in one panel. Nebula took her time at first because she was still getting used to her power, according to what was stated. Once she got the hang of it, she wiped them out easily as well.

Them not wiping the abstracts earlier definitely means the attacks weren't as strong. Thanos repeatedly knocked around each one of them, and the came back for more. Once Death betrayed him, he defeated them all at the same time in one panel. How is that not a stronger attack?

And Warlock didn't remove Eternity. Eternity removed himself after telling Warlock he was tired of him.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I'll agree with you that it isn't clear if he could've just turned off that power straight up. But I disagree on superiority between the two. The IG hasn't done a thing to prove on it hurt the LT over affect his power like he has it. He went throughout the entire trial mellow, even to the very end where as Warlock was mostly defensive especially when the ruling came and then when LT ruled. Warlock my not have complete omnicence but he was clueless as to how was more powerful of the two.

The LT was just as clueless. When the ruling came, they stood face to face in the wake of each others power emission and neither budged while everything around them was wiped out. Besides cancelling an attack of unknown power, the LT didn't prove he could hurt Warlock with the IG either.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Tsk, tsk. They paid you to work, not to play. 🤣

Don't worry. They know.

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]okay, VERY last post in this thread . . . 😄

your last point is an excellent one -- and one i'd already considered. you jumped to the same conclusion i did. but . . . like i initially did, you're assuming the other galactuses weren't revived. we can't know for sure. they may well have been, but it wouldn't have stopped the problem: abraxus had already been set free. what would have kept him from simply killing them again as he had done? the problem was that abraxas had been set free and that he and galactus existed together in the same universe -- 616. as much as the multiverse was mentioned and explored, 616 was the focal point of teh story -- everything was a strange reflection of 616 so clearly 616 DID impact these universes in SOME way. and it was 616 that needed fixing and if it could be fixed and the effect of the repair resounded through the mirror-universes, there would be no need to destroy the multiverse. the MULTIVERSE!

The thing is when 616 Galactus died he turned into a star. Abraxas was freed and killed alternate Galactuses. Proof being he sent the skull of an alternate Galactus to the 616 Earth.

As for the focal point of the story, usually it's 616. But this story encomposed other universe. Abraxas was causing universes to merge and people like John Lennon were showing up in the 616 when he was suppose to be dead. The scene went, "imagine a world where John Lennon is as alive today as he was on the day he was killed. Where Nazi stormtroopers invade New York's City's Jewish diamond district." These were alternate versions showing up in the 616. Heck, the Nazi's were beating up the Jewish New Yorkers. Universes were merging because of Abraxas.

with a weapon galactus said is as much a part of him as his heart. a weapon that is part of a sub-universal entity is capable fo destroying and remaking the entire multiverse? lt too? it just seems too much to me. 😬

I know it seems odd but it fits with comics. Black Bolt's just one guy and yet he could wipe out half the planet just opening his mouth. The you've got Surtur destroying a galaxy. A regular Skrull ship wiped out a half a solar system.

The UN is a bit of a mystery. But I understand what you're saying. Aside from Wolverine doing outrages things, artifacts from comics fit that as well. The Evil Eye allowed Dormammu to merge 616 with the Dark Dimension and the Eye can be considered sub-universal as well. Then you've got the cosmic cube which once allowed Thanos to take over 616 until it was retconned when the Cube Beings were. Then there's the Eye of Aggamotto...but that's another story.

is it POSSIBLE that's what the writer intended? sure. i never claimed otherwise. i just said it is my opinion that is NOT what happened. guess this means you think abraxas was the one who rendered 616 reed near-death in that scan, huh? 🙁

I can't tell you what the writer intended, not 100%. But they went as far as introducing Multiverse Eternity and Abraxas' plan was to merge/collaspe the Multiverse and was doing so.

meh, you're still a solid and fair debater (judging from your exchange with celestial). maybe next thread we'll find ourselves on the SAME side. 😉

Thanks you as well Leoindas.

Originally posted by leonidas
your last point is an excellent one -- and one i'd already considered. you jumped to the same conclusion i did. but . . . like i initially did, you're assuming the other galactuses weren't revived. we can't know for sure. they may well have been, but it wouldn't have stopped the problem: abraxus had already been set free. what would have kept him from simply killing them again as he had done? the problem was that abraxas had been set free and that he and galactus existed together in the same universe -- 616. as much as the multiverse was mentioned and explored, 616 was the focal point of teh story -- everything was a strange reflection of 616 so clearly 616 DID impact these universes in SOME way. and it was 616 that needed fixing and if it could be fixed and the effect of the repair resounded through the mirror-universes, there would be no need to destroy the multiverse. the MULTIVERSE! with a weapon galactus said is as much a part of him as his heart. a weapon that is part of a sub-universal entity is capable fo destroying and remaking the entire multiverse? lt too? it just seems too much to me.

Guess my point was excellent too...since i said that to you posts ago.

That it was rediculous to suggest that wahtever happens in 616 must happen in every other universe.

"the problem was that abraxas had been set free and that he and galactus existed together in the same universe -- 616. as much as the multiverse was mentioned and explored, 616 was the focal point of teh story -- everything was a strange reflection of 616 so clearly 616 DID impact these universes in SOME way."

If this is the strength behind your arguement...then we can finally see eye to eye, because:

Abraxas manifested OUTSIDE of 616 in another universe after Galactus died... Fantastic Four Annual 2001

So much for focal points.

Don't stop yet....I want to see your reply now.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
[B]The fact that he witnessed Thanos and Nebula beat them altogether let him know that they didn't stand a chance against it, regardless of whether he knew them or not. But the IG was never tried against the LT, so he was unsure. For all he knew, he was another abstract on par with Eternity. He was present at the first gathering where Eternity called the LT his peer.

Care to explain this again one more time? Your confusing me. And please break it down as simple or simpler.

Look at him in all the panels. His face turns completely red, and he looks like he's out of control. He lashes out at everyone around him. The attack blows most back but not all.

Your talking about Ziran barely keeping his balance and what looks like Lord Chaos holding him up? While everyone else inlcuidng Eternity and Galactus gettin blasted out in every direction? And LT was like Eh.

If he truly wanted to destroy them all (by this I mean all except the LT), he would have done so just as easily as both Thanos and Nebula did. The fact that he didn't means he wasn't trying to, meaning the attack wasn't powerful enough to.

Ah, what? Warlock's assault on the court was the same as Thanos and Nebula's. Thanos and Nebula could've destroyed them all if they wanted to. None of them did. What they did was beat down on the cosmics the way Warlock did, through shrear power. Even without resorting to blinking them out of existence, all three wielders proved the shrear might of the IG was enough to beat down the combined cosmics.

Thanos wanted to prove his power against them to impress Death. Once Death attacked him, he defeated all of them together in one panel. Nebula took her time at first because she was still getting used to her power, according to what was stated. Once she got the hang of it, she wiped them out easily as well.

How's any of this different from what Warlock did? They all did an omidirectinal attack on the cosmics, then Nebula turned them into stone, Thanos imprisonned them, but Warlock was stopped midway by the Tribunal.

Them not wiping the abstracts earlier definitely means the attacks weren't as strong. Thanos repeatedly knocked around each one of them, and the came back for more. Once Death betrayed him, he defeated them all at the same time in one panel. How is that not a stronger attack?

And Warlock didn't remove Eternity.

Even early into the attacks, neither Nebula nor Thanos' attack we stopped in anyway. Thanos actually reversed Chronos time attack back on him. None of them could even directly affect and stop an IG attack.

Eternity removed himself after telling Warlock he was tired of him.

😕 Warlock said that, not Eternity. He even snapped his fingers and Eternity was gone. Later Eternity shows up on a planet and tries to converse with Warlock over who the gems are given to (in a Warlock Chrononicles).

The LT was just as clueless. When the ruling came, they stood face to face in the wake of each others power emission and neither budged while everything around them was wiped out.

That's what LT always looks like that. They stood face to face and LT looks like he does at the beginning of the trial and the end. He could careless about Warlock's threat on him. Warlock, however, was trying to stare down the LT and LOL what looks to be like mad dogging him. As always the LT cared for the universes. The IG couldn't even affect him in any way but Warlock could wreck havoc on everything else.

And yes, he bugged. Standing up and ruling against Warlock while Warlock pulls out another threat.

Besides cancelling an attack of unknown power, the LT didn't prove he could hurt Warlock with the IG either.

How many others have canceled such an attack that was whipping the cosmics?

And he need not hurt Warlock when the purpose is to have a trial to allow Warlock and Eternity to make their case. Warlock was trying to stop the who trial. He stood face to face with the LT and said "HOW DARE YOU SEEK TO JUDGE ME!" and then attacked the court. LT stops his attack dead and Warlock goes, "HOW?"

If that was a mere IG attack that anyone can stop, Warlock wouldn't be going "HOW?"

Dear oh dear Mr M yet again you have highlighted your inability to correctly pick up and comprehend information from on panel even in cases where the goings on are spelled out for readers. Can you not read the print of your own scans? Allow me to give you a walkthrough of them:

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

You are quite right in saying the energy fields mergeD on their own, however as stated plain as day these energy fields only did this to form the energy matrix periodically (look it up). “The localized energy fields merged to create an energy matrix of awesome power, BUT THE ALIGNMENTS WERE TOO BRIEF AND INFREQUENT TO BE HARNESSED”

As stated Necrom despite this fact still longed for the power and so the wizards sought a way to permanently link these energy fields. Enter the Phoenix!! :

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/5913134015.jpg&s=x402

After many decades it was time again for this periodical alignment. As stated, on Earth 616 one of the dimensional interfaces was marked out by a tower . So when it came to the time of the alignment the Phoenix projected this tower ensuring it existed at the same point in every reality of the multiverse simultaneously, therefore ensuring each reality had a tower attuned to its realities dimensional interface. This resulted in the once periodically aligned energy fields becoming permanently aligned: “ Like a cosmic lynchpin threaded through the multiverse” The Phoenix basically took part in a cosmic sewing session with the tower being the needle and thread binding the matrix together.

Therefore when I said: “Phoenixs feat resulted in a permanently linked energy matrix which flows through the multiverse” I was very much correct.

You tried to make out that Merlyns jumping into the energy matrix saw that it was permanently linked. Nope. Nowhere is that stated or depicted. That’s a fantasy thought up in a desperate attempt to bolster your weak anti Phoenix tirade. Not only was it already established that the matrix could not be utilized before because of the temporary nature of its alignment but its also stated and depicted that Phoenix basically sewed the matrix together. After the permanent matrix had been established THEN it was possible for it to be utilized and for Merlyn to spend the decades he did fighting to gain control of the matrix. A thing it was already established could not be done in the absence of a permanent matrix because “THE ALIGNEMENTS WERE TOO BRIEF AND INFREQUENT TO BE HARNESSED”. The alignments are what make up the matrix and yet youre trying to say the energy fields waited around in alignment for the decades it took for him to gain control of it?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again LYING...all she did was project the single tower/lighthouse which through the Energy Matrix(the power that was applied)and all the doors open to the Multiverse(the Interfaces Aligned)was possible.

Whether a doorway was open or not makes no difference. The Phoenix applied her power to every reality of the multiverse simultaneously ensuring that the tower existed at the same point in each reality. That’s a multiversal feat and that’s not debatable.

Originally posted by Mr Master

So with the odds stacked up against Phoenix...one should ask you...why do you..think she's multiversal...what feat on panel...has demonstrated multiversal scale?

Delusional. The Phoenix applied her power simultaneously across the multiverse causing a tower to exist in each reality of said system. Blatant multiversal feat. Bias will get you nowhere.

As i have shown with scans the M'kraan crystal (as is common knowledge for most marvel fans) is multiversal. It got upgraded to this status in Legion Quest therefore upgrading Phoenixes feat. Phoenix has multiversal level power. She can apply her power across all marvel realities simultaneously. You have achieved NOT A THING.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Other places lie outside the multiverse, e.g. the Exiles Panoptichron and Otherworld, the latter could theoretically be considered outside the omniverse, or at least isolated from the rest of it. The White Hot Room isn't really all that special. 😖hifty:

What person with any common sense would even consider the notion that Otherworld is outside the omniverse. The omniverse by marvel definitions is everything including the real world. So thats a bit ridiculous. On top of that while Otherworld was devastated by the chaos wave, the white hot room was left unaffected.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
But Jean is the entirety of Phoenix as so often has been lectured.

Jean is the Phoenix in physical form, she is a true avatar however she is not all of the Phoenix at one spot in any one time. A little common sense please. As White Crown Phoenix however she does have a special relationship with the power and as we've seen from her feats (which remain the top in Marvel 🙂 ) her power can never be doubted.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The most recent mention of the Phoenix has it as a [b]universal force with an equal and opposite universal entity. [/B]

Given that the Phoenix has been depicted as manifesting at the universal level and as a central force in the White Hot Room which directs and guides these manifestations that point is irrelevant as its totally in line with what has come before. It referred to a task of Phoenixes it never gave a redefinition of the force.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Additionally it took the oh-so-incredibly-uber-powerful Phoenix over 150 years to heal. And it can be trapped by a machine that Beast built.

Youre not stupid so don’t say stupid things. You know none of this is true so why say it? It did not take the Phoenix 150 years to heal. It was 150 years until the Phoenix manifested again. Of course Endsong went on to come out rendering that not the case. The Phoenix Force in its entirety was not trapped by Beasts machine you know that so why try and make this point in the first place? A shard of Jeans Phoenix self was trapped by Beast and it was this shard that caused all the trouble in the mini as readers of said mini found out by the end.

Originally posted by MrMaster
For what though?

Their not needed for big bangs..because several others can utterly obliterate a Universe..heck give Doom enough time and he'll take out the Universe for you.

Their not needed for remaking a Universe many can do that.

Their definitely NOT here to protect anyone...because PF is always M.I.A.

I think Phoenix is only significant in X-Men issues and Excalibur's short run...after that... nothing...

What do you mean the Phoenix is not needed for Big Bangs? It’s the Phoenix power what spawns all life in the first place. Other beings may be able to destroy a universe or initiate a Big Bang but that’s going to be through the use of the energy and matter that’s already there, energy and matter we’re told originates from the Phoenix. Yes other powers in Marvel can remake a universe and others can protect the universe from threats however Phoenix has a role to play, one which would have spawned many of these others youre referring to therefore making your point irrelevant. Phoenix is a protected character in Marvel that tends to only be handled by X-men writers/editors, hence why you rarely see her outside of X-men titles. This has over the years lead to an incompatibility with the mainstram marvel universe cosmology. However there has been a clear attempt in recent years to rectify this through titles like X-men Forever which showed Phoenixes role in relation to the abstracts and Phoenixes inclusion in Galactus’ origin. Regardless what has always been stated about the Phoenix Force is that it is the fire that sparked off creation and that it is the life force of reality.