I have said it before and I say it again, just before that quote Luke said, "his power is unknown". He didn't know and didn't want to take any risks, apparently Ragnos wasn't a threat at all. And most of the stuff he heard was rumours. I bet that if you, a thousand years later revived the guy who was spared by Darth Maul at the black sun, he would treat Maul as a god, same thing with the Ancient's and Ragnos....
Originally posted by Escape81
The only indicators of his power are that he bested Simus (who is another unknown in this case), that Sadow (who is only truly exceptionally powerful with his ship) feared him (which could - not saying that it is - be the result of politics or propoganda or even Ragnos's mere reputation) feared him, and the big hype that his spirit brought up (which was exiled by one of Luke's mere trainees).
Not entirely correct.
We also have the fact that Ragnos spirit, 1000 years after his death, was able to physically damage Kun from a position half-way across the Galaxy (marking Kun's forehead) and the mere fact that Ragnos still seemed to be radiating power enough to make two enraged opponents simply stop fighting twice (Sadow / Kressh - Exar / Ulic).
Not to mention that somebody who trained people able to virtually f*ck up the entire Jedi Order with a single force attack (Nihilus) and had the ability to kill Jedi Council Members with a single force attack called Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side "frightening" and descriped the ancient Sith in general as vastly superior to herself and her "friends".
He is the intellectual and - more importantly - legal property of Kevin J. Anderson. If (Lightsnake has the source) he said that Ragnos is inferior to Kun and Palpatine, than that is a fact - until LFL or George Lucas comes and retcons or rebukes that statement, and one that you may not like - nor may you even accept it - but it is one that you cannot disprove.
No. Ragnos isn't legal property of Anderson. Everything in the SW universe is property of LFL - that was the reason for Veitch not to release "Lightsider" because he wanted to keep a certain game concept for himself.
And as I already told you the authors can't determine things in the SW universe they can just interprete certain things. When LFL allows video game creators to make Ragnos look like a god and at least almost certainly more powerful than Exar Kun than this simply is the case. Anderson can just give his personal opinion on the topic...like anyone else.
Further, Lucas himself states that the PT was "the golden age of the Jedi". Are we then to assume that these Ancient Sith could wipe their asses with the best of the best (in the PT)?
Wipe their asses with them ? No. Outclass them ? Maybe. But this is more a question of equipment (Sith alchemy) than of actual force powers or potential or fighting abilities. If Sadow's ships was already enough to do "impossible" things that "no Jedi could ever do" some smaller version of the same stuff (like an amulet or a sceptre) could still influence the outcome of a fight pretty much - especially in the hands of somebody who created that stuff.
Also, more sources label Emperor Palpatine as "the most powerful", than any other Sith Lord - including Marka Ragnos. So, let's say that we assume for a moment that Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful.That only counts for his time, whereas the New Essential Chronology stated that Sidious is "the most powerful in history."
The NEC quote is already stated to have been Wallace personal interpretation and again this is not a fact but just the personal opinion of authors same with any statements given by Veitch, Anderson or anybody else except Lucas. Lucas is the only person able to generate facts inside of the SW universe.
And if somebody wants to be mean he could just have an eye (or an ear in this case) on the ROTS commentary where Lucas descripes Grievious as "almost cowardly" and "not superstrong or superpowerful" and then judges him as "very much like Palpatine".
Then this somebody could interprete the words in a way that would result in something like "Hey. Palpatine isn't superstrong and superpowerful. And he's almost cowardly. He's just a manipulative actor with just enough fighting skills and force powers to keep himself from death until he can gain some advantage. Doesn't that make him look rather weak compared to that ancient Sith with their 'godlike' force powers and the battle prowess that makes veterans of several wars of Jedi against Sith 'look like children fighting eachother with toys' ?"
But of course nobody does hilarious things like that. 😛
And if somebody wants to be mean he could just have an eye (or an ear in this case) on the ROTS commentary where Lucas descripes Grievious as "almost cowardly" and "not superstrong or superpowerful" and then judges him as "very much like Palpatine".
Then this somebody could interprete the words in a way that would result in something like "Hey. Palpatine isn't superstrong and superpowerful. And he's almost cowardly. He's just a manipulative actor with just enough fighting skills and force powers to keep himself from death until he can gain some advantage. Doesn't that make him look rather weak compared to that ancient Sith with their 'godlike' force powers and the battle prowess that makes veterans of several wars of Jedi against Sith 'look like children fighting eachother with toys' ?"
But of course nobody does hilarious things like that. 😛
Armed with the fact that I may be wrong, as I recall, the statement about General Grievous was that he [Grievous]:
"...was supposed to be a behind-the-scenes manipulator, like Palpatine."
Not:
"...Grievous isn't supposed to be super-strong or super powerful, but cowardly, like Palpatine."
I don't have the RotS DVD on hand, and I won't for roughly another week (I'm visiting family), otherwise I'd give a word-for-word transcript on that part of the commentary.
If someone would be so kind as to provide one.
Oh I forgot, anything Lightsnake says is canon.. I don't need to explain to you how and why Odan had that nightmare, and so did his master.. Or maybe I do.. They felt a disturbance in the force... Yea that seems more logical than your statement.. OH and let me guess, Kreia is just a fallible 3rd party character that lies when she says the ancient sith pwned..
Not entirely correct.
We also have the fact that Ragnos spirit, 1000 years after his death, was able to physically damage Kun from a position half-way across the Galaxy (marking Kun's forehead) and the mere fact that Ragnos still seemed to be radiating power enough to make two enraged opponents simply stop fighting twice (Sadow / Kressh - Exar / Ulic).
Not to mention that somebody who trained people able to virtually f*ck up the entire Jedi Order with a single force attack (Nihilus) and had the ability to kill Jedi Council Members with a single force attack called Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side "frightening" and descriped the ancient Sith in general as vastly superior to herself and her "friends".
Well, in all fairness, Exar Kun's spirit put Luke Skywalker in a coma (though I don't know if this was before or after he possessed Kyp). And, like I said, I don't deny that Ragnos was immensely powerful or the most powerful of the Ancient Sith. But just because he was the most powerful of the Ancient Sith doesn't mean that he's more powerful than every other Sith. One could interpret that Ragnos was the most powerful of the Ancient times, Kun was the most powerful of the times in between, and Sidious has already been labeled as "the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times", which you yourself have agreed with.
As for Kreia's comments, that is another thing. I consider Kreia and Revan to be pretty powerful (and Ragnos to be superior to her and him) but, again, that doesn't automatically imply that he is more powerful than Sidious or Kun, whom I consider to be a few steps above either Kreia or Revan.
No. Ragnos isn't legal property of Anderson. Everything in the SW universe is property of LFL - that was the reason for Veitch not to release "Lightsider" because he wanted to keep a certain game concept for himself.
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
And as I already told you the authors can't determine things in the SW universe they can just interprete certain things. When LFL allows video game creators to make Ragnos look like a god and at least almost certainly more powerful than Exar Kun than this simply is the case. Anderson can just give his personal opinion on the topic...like anyone else.
But the Jedi Academy video game doesn't make Ragnos out to be "more powerful" than Kun. Luke knows next to nothing about Ragnos when he makes the assertion that "it could take the entire Academy to stop Ragnos". Perhaps he is right. But perhaps he isn't.
Also:
It did take Luke's Academy to expel Exar Kun's spirit into oblivion.
As for Palpatine, when Brand intercepted his spirit he told Luke that - "Palpatine will never return. The Force - and the Jedi before us - will see to that."
One could interpret that as all the Jedi before Luke and Brand would be required to hold Palpatine's spirit into oblivion.
We simply don't know with Ragnos's spirit, which, again - was expelled (though not to oblivion) by one Jedi, who - despite being called "a promising student" has ambiguous power levels. We don't know how powerful Jaden Korr is, but he was still able to defeat Tavion (even when Tavion was possessed by Ragnos) and forced Ragnos's spirit to flee.
Furthermore, when Kun possessed Kyp, Kyp showed more power than Tavion ever did.
Wipe their asses with them ? No. Outclass them ? Maybe. But this is more a question of equipment (Sith alchemy) than of actual force powers or potential or fighting abilities. If Sadow's ships was already enough to do "impossible" things that "no Jedi could ever do" some smaller version of the same stuff (like an amulet or a sceptre) could still influence the outcome of a fight pretty much - especially in the hands of somebody who created that stuff.
See, now I can actually go along with that. But my point is that I don't consider the Ancient Sith "teh uber", save for a few, unless they have their technological goodies to assist them.
Palpatine couldn't blow up a planet, which is why he designed those super weapons to compensate for a power that he didn't possess himself.
The NEC quote is already stated to have been Wallace personal interpretation and again this is not a fact but just the personal opinion of authors same with any statements given by Veitch, Anderson or anybody else except Lucas. Lucas is the only person able to generate facts inside of the SW universe.
Hmm. Perhaps so. But the sourcebooks, Essentially Chronologies, and all of that are what we all base our arguments on. The works of these authors, so they have to count for something.
We do know, however, that Palpatine was able to raze and drain planets.
You're the expert on what he did to Byss. I've always been curious about it, myself. Mind telling me exactly what he did? Because from what I understand, Palpatine's presence turned the planet into a Dark Side nexus - which he regularly fed off of - which is why the planet had a bluish tint to it.
And yeah, pretty much every Jedi who ever lived bound Palpatine to the dark side forever apparently
And that speaks volumes for him.
#1. For the last time stop calling me tdtd already. It means nothing to me.
#2. I'm looking at the damn scan, and unless you want to argue the concept of "passing" as a ghost, then its clear that his "passing" caused Odan Urr to have a nightmare and wake up..
Escape, I completely agree with everything in your statement, except that Kyp was already a very powerful force user, 2nd only to Luke, and Tavion was a weakling, so I don't it matters who possessed who. Even though Tavion couldn't handle Ragnos' spirit and Kyp could handle Kun's.