Israel and Lebanon

Started by ExodusCloak43 pages

Question- How are these estimates carried out? I mean Israel is just bombing left right and centre other then direct confrontation with their opposing foes how is anyone suppose to know which of the dead bodies are affiliated with Hezoballah?

Anyway the Sunni/Shia conflict thing doesn't make much sense especially when it's not their religion that differs but their political views on an event that happened a very long time ago. When it came down to picking a leader they quarreled..and well till this day no one has occupied that position..so niether side really benefited...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The civilian deaths are a result of both Hezbollah and Israel's conduct. That doesn't make them any less the result of Israel's disproportionate and indiscriminate actions.

Ok smarty pants, what is Israel to do then? And remember, Hezbollah operates out of civilian structures and dresses in civilian attire and surrounds itself with civilians for the use of human shields. If they're doing the wrong thing, what would be the right? Place yourself as an Israeli citizen, what if those rockets were aimed at you, what would you expect your government to do?

[i]Woman and children, ambulances, journalists and the UN. All of those ~900 deaths were Hezbollah? Half? A quarter? A tenth - now we are in the realms of possibility and probability.

Again, Hezbollah operates out of civilian structures and dresses in civilian attire. I promise you when a Hezbollah trooper is killed wearing the local garb they don't single him out and say Hezbollah dead, they say "Look, Israel killed another innocent civilian!" No one knows how many actual innocents have been killed, the reports vary.

[i]🤨 From where exactly does one derive that there was any implication 'only' killing 67 Israelis 'exonerates' Hezbollah. The part where I said condemnation of Israel doesn't equal condoning of Hezbollah? Nice strawman.

Actually, that came from your demonizing Israel because of the death count differences and I'm telling you, if Hezbollah could kill 5,000 civilians with each rocket, they certainly would. Nice strawman on your behalf.

[i]Sure it does. Deluded much?

Learn the facts about the conflict and take a long good look in the mirror.

Originally posted by GCG
No, you dont say "Oh Well" and kick up your shoes. Israel did not use the smart bombs provided by US the way they are supposed to. They hit the wrong place.

As soon as the Jews hit Qana, reporters & rescuers went on scene, after it took them several hours to get there, thanks to Israel's bombing of the main roads, and all that was found was bloody civilian carnage.

NOT ONE single scrap of evidence of a Rocket Launcher in the building they hit. Also, Mass reports suggest that no Hezbollah Rockets were fired from Qana ; but somehow, someway, a building collapses killing dozens of civilians, mostly children. Was that self-defense ?

There's more than one side to a story... Do a little research and see what seems more probable to you.

Israel Investigates Blogger Allegations of Qana Staging

Posted by Matthew Sheffield on August 2, 2006 - 10:39.
The Jerusalem Post reports today that the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) is investigating arguments, first raised by bloggers, that Hamas may have staged the alleged "atrocity" that occurred when building collapsed in the Lebanese city of Qana.

As reported by NewsBusters and elsewhere, significant doubts are being raised as to whether the building's collapse was caused by Israeli bombs or was deliberately destroyed by Hamas to gin up anti-Israeli sentiment.

Mentioned prominently in the article is NewsBuster Bob Owens's blog, Confederate Yankee, which in the fine MSM tradition of accuracy, is called "Conservative Yankee" by the Post. (See Bob's response post here.)

An excerpt from the JP article is after the jump...

The IDF is looking into allegations raised over the past few days by several pro-Israel, Jewish and conservative Weblogs that Hizbullah may have staged aspects of the Kana tragedy on Sunday, in which some 60 Lebanese bodies [edit: That's inaccurate - the actual count is 27] were removed from a building that collapsed seven hours after being hit in an Israel Air Force strike.

The dead were mainly children, women and elderly people.

The International Committee of the Red Cross Mission in Israel said Tuesday that it would inform its Swiss headquarters about the allegations and seek to clarify the questions raised.

Israel has acknowledged hitting the building, and said 150 Katyushas had been fired from the village in the previous 20 days, with Hizbullah hiding rocket launchers in civilian buildings there. Israel said it did not know civilians were inside the building and expressed sorrow over the tragedy.

In a speech on Monday night, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he deeply regretted the deaths of civilians there. "We did not seek to harm them, we did not want their death," he said. "They were not our enemies, they were not the target of our aircraft."

At a press conference on Sunday night, Air Force Chief of Staff Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel said the building was struck by IAF missiles a little after midnight, but only collapsed seven hours later, at about 7 a.m.

Eshel said he could not explain what caused the structure to collapse so many hours after it was hit, and speculated, while stressing that he had no conclusive evidence, about whether Hizbullah had played a role in what had transpired, perhaps by firing on the building itself. [...]

According to the blogs, perhaps the most suspicious element in the Kana affair was the fact that the dead children whose photographs appeared in the media displayed virtually no signs of blood, bruises or broken bones and, with one exception, were not caked with debris or pulverized cement.

For example, according to the antiliberal Conservative Yankee blog, "The child in the photo shows no signs of injuries - no blood, no disfigurement or crushing wounds consistent with a building collapse. The two men [carrying the child] show no signs of having been digging in rubble. Their clothes are unbelievably clean, especially the black fatigues that would so easily shown concrete dust."

Israel Insider cited a CNN report that, it said, noted the victims had died in their sleep. It seemed highly improbable, the piece asserted, that people could have slept "through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras," it went on, "were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure.

Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building... Israelis steeled to scenes of carnage from Palestinian suicide bombings and Hizbullah rocket attacks could not help but notice that these victims did not look like our victims. Their faces were ashen gray. While medical examination is clearly called for to arrive at a definitive dating and cause of their deaths, they do not appear to have died hours before. The bodies looked like they had been dead for days."

And all that from some unknowns blog ?

Wrong thread pal. Try posting in the Conspiracy Forum

Originally posted by Robtard
Ok smarty pants, what is Israel to do then? And remember, Hezbollah operates out of civilian structures and dresses in civilian attire and surrounds itself with civilians for the use of human shields. If they're doing the wrong thing, what would be the right? Place yourself as an Israeli citizen, what if those rockets were aimed at you, what would you expect your government to do?
Have shelters for one thing. But apparently Israeli Arab villages don't get those. Go figure.

An earlier ground assault would have yielded fewer civilian casualties and would have been a more fruitful exercise. Olmert lacks the military background of his predecessors and is subject to the whims of his military.

Place yourself as a Lebanese citizen, your country is being torn to shreds by a foreign nation's army, that has little or no regard for your life, because a terrorist group that also has little or no regard for your life uses your country as a staging ground for attack on said foreign nation. You have no electricity, you have been told to leave your home and so have either been displaced in your own country or can't leave while the roads are bombed and continue to be bombed. You probably know someone who has been killed by airstrikes, relatives, children.

Originally posted by Robtard
Again, Hezbollah operates out of civilian structures and dresses in civilian attire. I promise you when a Hezbollah trooper is killed wearing the local garb they don't single him out and say Hezbollah dead, they say "Look, Israel killed another innocent civilian!" No one one for sure how many actual innocents have been killed.
Multiple journalists attest to Hezbollah mainly, but not always launching rocket attacks away from villages. They do store weapons in civilian areas. They have used civilians as shields. Again this does not justify indiscriminate and disproportionate conduct.
Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, that came from your demonizing Israel because of the death count differences and I'm telling you, if Hezbollah could kill 5,000 civilians with each rocket, they certainly would. Nice strawman on your behalf.
Do you know what a strawman argument is? Because you do it a lot. I wasn't demonizing Israel by comparing death count. Notwithstanding my criticism of IDF conduct, I was stating the death count on both sides, lest someone like you strawman and say something like "Hezbollah have killed Israelis too, you don't mention their civilians, you must support Hezbollah." Hezbollah's actions are deplorable.
Originally posted by Robtard
Learn the facts about the conflict and take a long good look in the mirror.
Pray tell these facts you're privy to that suggest an escalation of rocket attacks over the course of the incursion indicates that the current Israeli methods are achieving a whole lot? If Israel failed to quell Hezbollah after occupying southern Lebanon for almost 20 years what makes you think they're going to do so now? Tell me do you know what was a principal instigator of the formation of Hezbollah?

Originally posted by GCG
And all that from some unknowns blog ?

Wrong thread pal. Try posting in the Conspiracy Forum

Did you miss 'Jerusalem Post' and the citings by 'CNN'??? By anyhow, I do not think you care to reserach, you'll only read media that's biased to your point of view.

Don't these people know there is proper conduct to war, I suggest they sit down and have tea while assessing proper conduct and punishments!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot Have shelters for one thing. But apparently Israeli Arab villages don't get those. Go figure.

An earlier ground assault would have yielded fewer civilian casualties and would have been a more fruitful exercise. Olmert lacks the military background of his predecessors and is subject to the whims of his military.

Place yourself as a Lebanese citizen, your country is being torn to shreds by a foreign nation's army, that has little or no regard for your life, because a terrorist group that also has little or no regard for your life uses your country as a staging ground for attack on said foreign nation. You have no electricity, you have been told to leave your home and so have either been displaced in your own country or can't leave while the roads are bombed and continue to be bombed. You probably know someone who has been killed by airstrikes, relatives, children.
Multiple journalists attest to Hezbollah mainly, but not always launching rocket attacks away from villages. They do store weapons in civilian areas. They have used civilians as shields. Again this does not justify indiscriminate and disproportionate conduct.

Do tell me how an Israel ground attack or otherwise is going to magically be able to pick off Hezbollah militants hiding and firing from a hospital, apartment complex or whatever civilian structure and not cause civilian deaths? They don't wear badges saying 'HEZBOLLAH', but they do surround themselves with women and children.

Innocent people being killed is horrible, if I could magically transport the Hezbollah fighters and the Israeli army into the middle of a desert so they could duke it out without the loss of a single civilian, I'd do it. But we both know that isn't a reality.

[Do you know what a strawman argument is? Because you do it a lot. I wasn't demonizing Israel by comparing death count. Notwithstanding my criticism of IDF conduct, I was stating the death count on both sides, lest someone like you strawman and say something like "Hezbollah have killed Israelis too, you don't mention their civilians, you must support Hezbollah." Hezbollah's actions are deplorable.

Ya, I do know what a strawman is and you were demonizing and making a flimsy arguement when saying 'blank' number of Israelis have been killed compared to 'larger blank' number of Lebanese & Hezbollah have been killed,so Israel must be the greater evil.

The number of Israelis killed by Hezbollah doesn't matter, it's their intent. If they could kill every single Jew in Israeli with one attack, they would certainly do it (220+ rockets fired yesteday). Also, why aren't you outraged over the loss of Israeli civilians killed, be it 67 or 100,000? So far I've only seen anti-Israeli rheotric about the loss of innocents.

[Pray tell these facts you're privy to that suggest an escalation of rocket attacks over the course of the incursion indicates that the current Israeli methods are achieving a whole lot? If Israel failed to quell Hezbollah after occupying southern Lebanon for almost 20 years what makes you think they're going to do so now? Tell me do you know what was a principal instigator of the formation of Hezbollah?

It's called a war and it's ongoing. Do I know with 100% certainty that Israel will be able to completely wipe out Hezbollah, no, I do not. But I certainly hope they do, because if they stop before Hezbollah is completely eliminated, like a cancer they will regroup, regrown and resume their terror campaign. I'm curious, do you think Israel should stop because Hezbollah is still fighting? That makes sense to you?

Hezbollah formed sometime in the early 80's to fight Israel and to covert Lebanon into an Islamic Republic, thats the official reason. I believe they are nothing more than insane jihadist trying to eliminate any all western influence. Nothing but a bunch of religiously twisted ****nuts who use their version of Islam to justify the killing of people.

Originally posted by Soleran
Don't these people know there is proper conduct to war, I suggest they sit down and have tea while assessing proper conduct and punishments!

These anti-Israeli arguments crack me up. Hezbollah and other terrorist groups routinely send young boys whom they brainwashed into believing that if they kill themselves along with and many innocent men, women and children (children being the preferred targets) they'll be praised and rewarded with virgins in heaven. Israel on the other hand, launches an offensive war to protect itself from ongoing attacks and Israel is the terrorist nation. Go figure.

Originally posted by Robtard
These anti-Israeli arguments crack me up. Hezbollah and other terrorist groups routinely send young boys whom they brainwashed into believing that if they kill themselves along with and many innocent men, women and children (children being the preferred targets) they'll be praised and rewarded with virgins in heaven. Israel on the other hand, launches an offensive war to protect itself from ongoing attacks and Israel is the terrorist nation. Go figure.

Uh huh, yeah anti-israel comments are you smoking crack?

Originally posted by Robtard
These anti-Israeli arguments crack me up. Hezbollah and other terrorist groups routinely send young boys whom they brainwashed into believing that if they kill themselves along with and many innocent men, women and children (children being the preferred targets) they'll be praised and rewarded with virgins in heaven. Israel on the other hand, launches an offensive war to protect itself from ongoing attacks and Israel is the terrorist nation. Go figure.

When did Hezbollah become a nation? Who denies that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization?

Originally posted by Soleran
Uh huh, yeah anti-israel comments are you smoking crack?

Are you saying there isn't 'anti-Israel' arguements on this thread? 😕

Originally posted by Robtard
Are you saying there isn't 'anti-Israel' arguements on this thread? 😕

No, its that you quoted me. I am for Israel's actions.

Originally posted by Soleran
No, its that you quoted me. I am for Israel's actions.

I think he talked to you and didn't attack you, you know people with stupid arguments and beliefs usually try to fins people that agree with them to feel less stupid about it.

Do tell me how indiscriminate disproportionate bombing of civilian infrastructure, vehicles, areas etc with little regard for civilian lives is going to cause less death and destruction than a ground assault. Tell me how it's going to reduce support and make it harder for Hezbolah to recruit fighters. Or how it isn't going to destabilise the Lebanese government even further. Soldiers can tell the difference between a child and a gunmen, at least one hopes they can.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ya, I do know what a strawman is and you were demonizing and making a flimsy arguement when saying 'blank' number of Israelis have been killed compared compare to 'larger blank' number of Lebanese & Hezbollah have been killed,so Israel must be the greater evil.

The number of Israelis killed by Hezbollah doesn't matter, it's their intent. If they could kill every single Jew in Israeli with one attack, they would certainly do it (220+ rockets fired yesteday). Also, why aren't you outraged over the loss of Israeli civilians killed, be it 67 or 100,000? So far I've only seen anti-Israeli rheotric about the loss of innocents.

Are you positive you know what straw man is. Appearance is to the contrary. I've condemned the actions of both sides of this conflict. No one in this thread has had anything but condemnation for Hezbollah that I can recall. However you've chosen only to condemn the actions of Hezbollah with a relatively blanket condoning and even approval of the IDF/AF to do whatever it pleases.
Originally posted by Robtard
It's called a war and it's ongoing. Do I know with 100% certainty that Israel will be able to completely wipe out Hezbollah, no, I do not. But I certainly hope they do, because if they stop before Hezbollah is completely eliminated, like a cancer they will regroup, regrown and resume their terror campaign.

Hezbollah formed sometime in the early 80's to fight Israel and to covert Lebanon into an Islamic Republic, thats the official reason. I believe they are nothing more than insane jihadist trying to eliminate any all western influence. Nothing but a bunch of religiously twisted ****nuts who use their version of Islam to justify the killing of people.

Really because I'm moderately certain Israel will fail to eliminate Hezbollah, and that if the two IDF soldiers used as a pretext to invasion are alive they'll likely be recovered via prisoner exchange anyway.

To fight Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon after the 1982 invasion yes.

Originally posted by Bardock42
When did Hezbollah become a nation? Who denies that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization?

Believe it or not, Hezbollah has a VERY strong presence in Lebanon and I emphasize VERY

In here, I'm not exactly sure, but a large portion of the world does not recognize Hezbollah as being terrorist and I don't just meant Islamic countries, but to blame and condemn Israel for the civilian deaths is insane. Sure Israel attacks are killing civilians who have nothing to do with the war, but that is an unfortunate and horrific byproduct of war and it happens in all wars. But I, unlike other people blame Hezbollah for the civilian deaths, they use them and place them in harms way.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think he talked to you and didn't attack you, you know people with stupid arguments and beliefs usually try to fins people that agree with them to feel less stupid about it.

Oh snap, Bardock42 there was no love in your comments there.

Oh, now at least I understand why you tag along with some others in the thread then.

Originally posted by Soleran
No, its that you quoted me. I am for Israel's actions.

I wasn't attacking you... Sorry if you thought that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think he talked to you and didn't attack you, you know people with stupid arguments and beliefs usually try to fins people that agree with them to feel less stupid about it.

Yes I know and I wasn't attacking him...

Lol, nice little insult... If you're going to insult me, at least do not insult me for actions you do yourself, it makes you out to not only be a hypocrite, but stupid too.

If my arguements and by beliefs are stupid (in this case, pro-Israel), please debate them and not resort to ad hominem attacks.

Originally posted by Robtard
Believe it or not, Hezbollah has a VERY strong presence in Lebanon and I emphasize [B]VERY

In here, I'm not exactly sure, but a large portion of the world does not recognize Hezbollah as being terrorist and I don't just meant Islamic countries, but to blame and condemn Israel for the civilian deaths is insane. Sure Israel attacks are killing civilians who have nothing to do with the war, but that is an unfortunate and horrific byproduct of war and it happens in all wars. But I, unlike other people blame Hezbollah for the civilian deaths, they use them and place them in harms way. [/B]

I am so happy you emphasized that. So, when did Hezbollah become a nation?
And most people are very aware that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. But what Israel does is just as bad (if not worse because of the masses) as what Hezbollah does.

Originally posted by Soleran
Oh snap, Bardock42 there was no love in your comments there.

Oh, now at least I understand why you tag along with some others in the thread then.

Good comeback, why don't you just say "No, you are" next time?