Originally posted by Bardock42
I am so happy you emphasized that. So, when did Hezbollah become a nation?
And most people are very aware that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. But what Israel does is just as bad (if not worse because of the masses) as what Hezbollah does.Good comeback, why don't you just say "No, you are" next time?
I'm happy to make you happy. There is no nation of Hezbollah, but what is your point?
So Israel conductiong a war against terrorist who use civilians as shields and therefore civilians die is worse then Hezbollah firing rockets aimed at civilians and sending in suicide bombers? WTF?
Like many people, you're playing the numbers games, Hezbollah has only killed 70 or so Israelis so Israel is wrong in fighting back... You either do not realize that they intend to kill all of Israel or you do not care if Israelis die.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Do tell me how indiscriminate disproportionate bombing of civilian infrastructure, vehicles, areas etc with little regard for civilian lives is going to cause less death and destruction than a ground assault. Tell me how it's going to reduce support and make it harder for Hezbolah to recruit fighters. Or how it isn't going to destabilise the Lebanese government even further. Soldiers can tell the difference between a child and a gunmen, at least one hopes they can.Are you positive you know what straw man is. Appearance is to the contrary. I've condemned the actions of both sides of this conflict. No one in this thread has had anything but condemnation for Hezbollah that I can recall. However you've chosen only to condemn the actions of Hezbollah with a relatively blanket condoning and even approval of the IDF/AF to do whatever it pleases.
Really because I'm moderately certain Israel will fail to eliminate Hezbollah, and that if the two IDF soldiers used as a pretext to invasion are alive they'll likely be recovered via prisoner exchange anyway.
To fight Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon after the 1982 invasion yes.
Why do you think they where discriminate? Hezbollah operates out of such structures exclusively, they don't have a Hezbollah Hideout which Israel can conveniently target. Do you realize Israel dropped pamphlets warning the Lebanese of the oncoming attacks? Also, if it makes you feel better, Israel has and is sending in ground troops.
Fine, I don't know what a strawman is, it's a stupid argument so have it your way. But your argument: "800,000 displaced, as many as 900 Lebanese killed, mostly civilians many of them children, 3,000 wounded, 67 Israelis killed, 40 soldiers, 27 civilians. A disproportionate assault, achieving little if anything at all, as shown Hezbollah launching it's largest barrage of rockets yet only a day ago." Is a strawman, just because Hezbollah fails to kill as many Israelis as it would like to, doesn't mean Israel is wrong in fighting back.
I choose to not condemn Israel because they are the ones that were attacked and are being forced to defend themselves. They do not use terrorist tactics (suicide bombings) nor to the shield themselves with civilians. Any and all civilian deaths are the result of Hezbollahs actions.
Well, we will have to just see then. But for the good of the region, Hezbollah needs to go. This isn't about recovering two soldiers, it's about defeating an implacable enemy (Hezbollah) who wants nothing more than to see Israel destroyed and every single Jew driven into the sea, they have said this themselves. If Israel fails to eliminate Hezbollah, they can only expect more attacks.
Originally posted by Robtard
Why do you think they where discriminate? Hezbollah operates out of such structures exclusively, they don't have a Hezbollah Hideout which Israel can conveniently target. Do you realize Israel dropped pamphlets warning the Lebanese of the oncoming attacks? Also, if it makes you feel better, Israel has and is sending in ground troops.Fine, I don't know what a strawman is, it's a stupid argument so have it your way. But your argument: "800,000 displaced, as many as 900 Lebanese killed, mostly civilians many of them children, 3,000 wounded, 67 Israelis killed, 40 soldiers, 27 civilians. A disproportionate assault, achieving little if anything at all, as shown Hezbollah launching it's largest barrage of rockets yet only a day ago." Is a strawman, just because Hezbollah fails to kill as many Israelis as it would like to, doesn't mean Israel is wrong in fighting back.
I choose to not condemn Israel because they are the ones that were attacked and are being forced to defend themselves. They do not use terrorist tactics (suicide bombings) nor to the shield themselves with civilians. Any and all civilian deaths are the result of Hezbollahs actions.
Well, we will have to just see then. But for the good of the region, Hezbollah needs to go. This isn't about recovering two soldiers, it's about defeating an implacable enemy (Hezbollah) who wants nothing more than to see Israel destroyed and every single Jew driven into the sea, they have said this themselves. If Israel fails to eliminate Hezbollah, they can only expect more attacks.
Pretty good arguments you have produced. I almost full-heartedly agree with you.
For reference...
A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, since the argument actually presented by the opponent has not been refuted.
Originally posted by Robtard
Why do you think they where discriminate? Hezbollah operates out of such structures exclusively, they don't have a Hezbollah Hideout which Israel can conveniently target. Do you realize Israel dropped pamphlets warning the Lebanese of the oncoming attacks? Also, if it makes you feel better, Israel has and is sending in ground troops.Fine, I don't know what a strawman is, it's a stupid argument so have it your way. But your argument: "800,000 displaced, as many as 900 Lebanese killed, mostly civilians many of them children, 3,000 wounded, 67 Israelis killed, 40 soldiers, 27 civilians. A disproportionate assault, achieving little if anything at all, as shown Hezbollah launching it's largest barrage of rockets yet only a day ago." Is a strawman, just because Hezbollah fails to kill as many Israelis as it would like to, doesn't mean Israel is wrong in fighting back.
I choose to not condemn Israel because they are the ones that were attacked and are being forced to defend themselves. They do not use terrorist tactics (suicide bombings) nor to the shield themselves with civilians. Any and all civilian deaths are the result of Hezbollahs actions.
Well, we will have to just see then. But for the good of the region, Hezbollah needs to go. This isn't about recovering two soldiers, it's about defeating an implacable enemy (Hezbollah) who wants nothing more than to see Israel destroyed and every single Jew driven into the sea, they have said this themselves. If Israel fails to eliminate Hezbollah, they can only expect more attacks.
u realize how impressionable and simple minded u are?! its hopeless.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
u realize how impressionable and simple minded u are?! its hopeless.
Lol... Sorry I don't agree with your point of view, I know how annoying that can be. 🙄
and to return that ad hominem attack back ya....
I read your bio "lets just say that i am and will remain a complete enigma..." Deep man... I mean DEEP...
Originally posted by Robtard
Lol... Sorry I don't agree with your point of view, I know how annoying that can be. 🙄and to return that ad hominem attack back ya....
I read your bio "lets just say that i am and will remain a complete enigma..." Deep man... I mean [B]DEEP
... [/B]
Haha, anyone that believes the Israel hype is just a sheep obviously!
On ABC news yesterday, there was a report of a religious gathering of the christian evangelists in america. Hundreds gathered to celebrate Israel's offensive, because according to these idiots, that will bring Jesus Christ down to earth for a second time.
Many republican senators were present at the ceremony, and so was the Israeli ambassador. As we all know, Bush is a strong follower of this faith. I just hope he's not stupid enough to let his faith influence his policy in letting Israel continue bombing, believing that Jesus will return if he does.
This just shows that the american government and senate also boarders on the level of extremism.
Originally posted by Dirty Vader
On ABC news yesterday, there was a report of a religious gathering of the christian evangelists in america. Hundreds gathered to celebrate Israel's offensive, because according to these idiots, that will bring Jesus Christ down to earth for a second time.Many republican senators were present at the ceremony, and so was the Israeli ambassador. As we all know, Bush is a strong follower of this faith. I just hope he's not stupid enough to let his faith influence his policy in letting Israel continue bombing, believing that Jesus will return if he does.
This just shows that the american government and senate also boarders on the level of extremism.
Yeah that does, good job on reporting that! 🙄
Originally posted by RobtardThe word is indiscriminate. Hezbollah does not operate exclusively out of such strutures. Israeli psy-ops, followed by massive bombardment, telling people to leave while at the same time hindering their route and making travel as dangerous as staying put. 10 days after massive bombardment of Lebanon began.
Why do you think they where discriminate? Hezbollah operates out of such structures exclusively, they don't have a Hezbollah Hideout which Israel can conveniently target. Do you realize Israel dropped pamphlets warning the Lebanese of the oncoming attacks? Also, if it makes you feel better, Israel has and is sending in ground troops.
"This is a classic strategic bombing campaign, what the Israelis are trying to do is pressure others into solving their problem for them, hence the targeting of civilian infrastructure." Stephen Biddle, a former head of military studies at the U.S. Army War College now at the Council on Foreign Relations.
"The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah." James Dobbins, a former Bush administration envoy to Afghanistan who now heads military analysis for the Rand Corp.
"The Brookings Institution's Michael O'Hanlon said the Israeli campaign most closely resembles the U.S.-led NATO bombardment of Serbia in 1999, in which a victory was achieved without a land invasion.
But the 78-day NATO bombardment of Serbia had clear international legitimacy and was more gradual. Air crews targeted Serbian military and communications sites first, and when that didn't persuade the Serb military to pull out of Kosovo, planes hit civilian and government targets.
Targeting was far more discriminatory. Despite tens of thousands of sorties, NATO is thought to have killed 500 civilians in the 2- 1/2 month campaign. By contrast, Israel has killed more than 250 Lebanese in eight days.
And the Serbian actions that triggered NATO's airstrikes were far larger than anything launched from Lebanon, Dobbins said."
Originally posted by RobtardRead the definition of straw man.
Fine, I don't know what a strawman is, it's a stupid argument so have it your way. But your argument: "800,000 displaced, as many as 900 Lebanese killed, mostly civilians many of them children, 3,000 wounded, 67 Israelis killed, 40 soldiers, 27 civilians. A disproportionate assault, achieving little if anything at all, as shown Hezbollah launching it's largest barrage of rockets yet only a day ago." Is a strawman, just because Hezbollah fails to kill as many Israelis as it would like to, doesn't mean Israel is wrong in fighting back.
Originally posted by RobtardAnd indiscriminate and disproportionate conduct on the part of the nation of Israel.
I choose to not condemn Israel because they are the ones that were attacked and are being forced to defend themselves. They do not use terrorist tactics (suicide bombings) nor to the shield themselves with civilians. Any and all civilian deaths are the result of Hezbollahs actions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html
Correction: The IDF doesn't use Israeli or Lebanese civilians to shield themselves.
Originally posted by RobtardHezbollah's intention to capture an IDF soldier - such action a pretext to war - was proclaimed months ago. Do you think that the kind of large scale aerial assault that occurred can be prepared in a couple of days?
Well, we will have to just see then. But for the good of the region, Hezbollah needs to go. This isn't about recovering two soldiers, it's about defeating an implacable enemy (Hezbollah) who wants nothing more than to see Israel destroyed and every single Jew driven into the sea, they have said this themselves. If Israel fails to eliminate Hezbollah, they can only expect more attacks.
Former Israeli Prime Ministers:
David Ben Gurion
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." 1937
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." 1948
Benyamin Netanyahu
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
Ehud Barak, on what he would have done if he were a Palestinian:
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
Ariel Sharon:
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
Originally posted by Robtard
Fine, I don't know what a strawman is, it's a stupid argument so have it your way. But your argument: "800,000 displaced, as many as 900 Lebanese killed, mostly civilians many of them children, 3,000 wounded, 67 Israelis killed, 40 soldiers, 27 civilians. A disproportionate assault, achieving little if anything at all, as shown Hezbollah launching it's largest barrage of rockets yet only a day ago." Is a strawman, just because Hezbollah fails to kill as many Israelis as it would like to, doesn't mean Israel is wrong in fighting back.
A lovely KMC definition of irony-flecked ignorance: Stating that you don't understand a concept, then using it to label someone else's argument .
Good stuff, 'tard.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The word is indiscriminate. Hezbollah does not operate exclusively out of such strutures. Israeli psy-ops, followed by massive bombardment, telling people to leave while at the same time hindering their route and making travel as dangerous as staying put. 10 days after massive bombardment of Lebanon began."This is a classic strategic bombing campaign, what the Israelis are trying to do is pressure others into solving their problem for them, hence the targeting of civilian infrastructure." Stephen Biddle, a former head of military studies at the U.S. Army War College now at the Council on Foreign Relations.
"The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah." James Dobbins, a former Bush administration envoy to Afghanistan who now heads military analysis for the Rand Corp.
"The Brookings Institution's Michael O'Hanlon said the Israeli campaign most closely resembles the U.S.-led NATO bombardment of Serbia in 1999, in which a victory was achieved without a land invasion.
But the 78-day NATO bombardment of Serbia had clear international legitimacy and was more gradual. Air crews targeted Serbian military and communications sites first, and when that didn't persuade the Serb military to pull out of Kosovo, planes hit civilian and government targets.
Targeting was far more discriminatory. Despite tens of thousands of sorties, NATO is thought to have killed 500 civilians in the 2- 1/2 month campaign. By contrast, Israel has killed more than 250 Lebanese in eight days.
And the Serbian actions that triggered NATO's airstrikes were far larger than anything launched from Lebanon, Dobbins said."
Read the definition of straw man.
And indiscriminate and disproportionate conduct on the part of the nation of Israel.http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html
Correction: The IDF doesn't use Israeli or Lebanese civilians to shield themselves.
Hezbollah's intention to capture an IDF soldier - such action a pretext to war - was proclaimed months ago. Do you think that the kind of large scale aerial assault that occurred can be prepared in a couple of days?Former Israeli Prime Ministers:
David Ben Gurion
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." 1937
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." 1948
Benyamin Netanyahu
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
Ehud Barak, on what he would have done if he were a Palestinian:
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
Ariel Sharon:
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
My bad, I made typos... Besides that, you really didn't say anything else. And, you really need to learn the difference between terrorist acts and self defense.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You really need to learn the definition of straw man, because you're doing it again.
Wasn't there a straw man in the Wizard of Oz?
Here are some facts of war... Bombing roads, highways, airports etc. is necessary to prevent your enemy from further harming you. Hezbollah was using and is using such structures to transport troops and weapons. (Unless of course they have some other way of moving?)Basically, the only way to win a war is to disable your enemies ability to wage war on you.
I ask you again, if Israel cannot bomb a single structure, how is Israel to defend itself from further attacks and simultaneously mount an offense? Should they stick to using foul language?
Originally posted by RobtardDid you not see the military analysts contrast of NATO's Serbia action and Israel's current action? Do you think that the increase in both depth and magnitude of Hezbollah attacks is an indication that Israel is accomplishing anything?
Wasn't there a straw man in the Wizard of Oz?Here are some facts of war... Bombing roads, highways, airports etc. is necessary to prevent your enemy from further harming you. Hezbollah was using and is using such structures to transport troops and weapons. (Unless of course they have some other way of moving?)Basically, the only way to win a war is to disable your enemies ability to wage war on you.
I ask you again, if Israel cannot bomb a single structure, how is Israel to defend itself from further attacks and simultaneously mount an offense? Should they stick to using foul language?
The only thing they are accomplishing is strengthening militant Islam in the Middle East.
A straw man is when you set up a agrument and then "knock it down"
This allows you to "prove" something, but not really prove anything at all that actually relates to the argument.
Now. Isreal is way over the line. Honestly, I think they have recently earned every rocket that Hezbollah fires at them. Isreal bombe bridges, apartment buildings, government offices, airports, UN workers, relif routes, everyhting. Its clearly not Hezbollah, its about Isreal having a giant stick up its arse and levelling Lebbanon.
When all is said and done, there will be a regional war, massive suffereing, Lebanons fragile governement will be destroyed and replaced by Hezbollah. Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran will be all the stonger, moderate Islamic governemnts will have harder times controllign extrimists and justifying they're relationship with the US, terrorism will increase, and the region will be more dnagerous than ever.
Sounds like a plan. THANKS ISREAL!