Exar Kun vs. Yoda

Well Nai few things here:

Please show me where the creator puts Sidious on Kun's level, and not that bullshit ambiguous email from lightsnake.
Secondly, if that WAS the case I am almost 100% sure that he was referring to DE Sidious, because there is absolutely no way ROTS Sidious could be on Kun's level, not by a longshot. I guarantee you if the creator said this then he WAS talking about the STRONGEST form of Sidious. Now Yoda stalemated or almost beat ROTS Sidious, which means absolutely nothing considering DE SIdious would curbstomp him, and if you are inclined to believe that Exar Kun=strongest version of Sidious, then you are inclined to believe that Exar Kun>Yoda.

I wanna say something else:

There were also NUMEROUS successive conflicts in the Clone Wars era and not spread out over centuries

Kun's era:
Gank Massacre-800 years before
Great Droid Rebellion-coupla centuries before? Maybe less, I forget
The Vultar Cataclysm: before the Droid Rebellion, at least

PT times:
Volfe Karkko's rebellion
Nikko Tyris's rebellion with the JEnsaari: Some time before the prequels, later joined Dooku
Kibh Jeen's rebellion: One of the few times the Council ever had to order an outright 'Shoot to kill' order...
The Yinchorri Uprising
The Stark Hyperspace War
Numerous little incidents

And there's no conflict in Kun's era that came close to a galaxy spanning conflict raging for three years.

And considering Dan wallace put ROTS Sidious as the strongest Sith ever...Nai, we'd been over this before I know, but what's the point of being the strongest Jedi if you're incredibly inferior to numerous Sith when the light and Dark are equal? when one of the reasons Yoda lost was because of the 'change of the Sith' as detailed by the ROTS novel. There's not telling what generation of Sidious Kevin was referring to...

Now Yoda lost? Lightsnake your ambiguous quotes make absolutely no sense.. How the hell is ROTS Sidious the strongest sith lord ever when his newer self was even stronger? This is why I take your quotes as absolutely nothing in an argument, because they don't even make sense..

Yoda fell a hundred feet and ran away...no matter your reason, that's still a loss. And up until that point was what I believe Dan was trying to say...did I really need to spell that out?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok fair enough point Nai but let me ask you this. Does the fact that Exar Kun was beyond everybody in his time, diminish his era or shows a testament of Kun's skill? I could just as well say that during the PT time is when there was 1-2 sith lords at the same time, so it's not exactly a normal comparison to the old republic times. And at the same time I can say that diminishes the power of Sidious or really puts Yoda on another level. I believe I saw a few threads where it was Vodo vs. Yoda, and there was more of a case for Vodo. That only matters to a certain extent here but the simple fact is, Kun had no equal in force abilities and saber combat, and he clearly displayed both abilites to perfection, or at least more than Sidious and his force lightning and Yoda's abilities. I never said this would be a curbstomp but there's very little chance Yoda could defeat a lightsaber prodigy during a more warlike period. Not to mention Yoda isn't magically going to know how to combat Exar Kun's unknown style. Which also doesn't matter TOO much but just my point. And if Kun has trouble with Yoda in saber combat, he always has his ancient sith spells and amulet to fall back on, unless of course youre going to tell me Yoda can dodge those things like nothing, especially without getting tired.

Oh Nai, as for the thread I just found it..
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=342279&highlight=exar+kun+vs.+yoda

Luke thought that soup was nasty because it was Exar I recall exar being.hang

Ahhhhhh! blowup

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda fell a hundred feet and ran away...no matter your reason, that's still a loss. And up until that point was what I believe Dan was trying to say...did I really need to spell that out?

Considering the point that Lucas HIMSELF said the fight was a stalemate on the ROTS DVD, then the fight was a stalemate. And again, who exactly is Anderson to make ambiguous quotes like that? If we were to go by your logic(aka the quotes), then ROTS Sidious>DE Sidious. And I HIGHLY doubt he meant up to that point, whether he included the EU in it or not. ROTS Sidious=not believable in the least bit. DE Sidious at least has leeway.

Oh, Nai, for the record, care to see the TOTJ parody?

Scene examples:

Naga Sadow: Mwaahaha, now to convince the Sith that those bumbling and lovable explorers are really asssassins from the Republic...I will trick the Sith into war
Sith: Umm, Naga? We're EVIL? We're the SITH! We don't need inducements!
Naga: No! The tragic death of a talking head will be avenged!
Ludo: Damn you, Naga Sadow! I will stop you!
Naga: It's amusing you're such a stupid peon but are absolutely right in everything you do

Exar: Hey, I'll take that!
Odan: Oh, what a coincidence...I was just teaching Nomi how to deal with this!
Exar: Master, do you know who I am? I'm....Batman!
Odan: What?
Exar: Oh, nevermind, just always wanted to say that *Kills Odan Ur*
Students: Exar, we're ready, teach us stuff!
Exar: Heh heh

Jedi 1: The KRath are evil...we must stop them.
Jedi 2: What about them letting them our own path?
Jedi 1: they control important mining facilities?
Jedi 2: WAR!!!!!

Vodo: We cannot act until it's too late....well, now's good....Exar Kun, it is too late to stop you, so I'm gonna try now!

some of that was actually mildly humorous..

lmao that was like the funniest shit I've ever read. 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
Man, I'm on the floor laughing, I can't stop.

I don't think it was that funny Nebaris but to each his own.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Please show me where the creator puts Sidious on Kun's level, and not that bullshit ambiguous email from lightsnake.

Why is this email "ambigious". It was clearly coming from Anderson forwarded by his official fanclub (AnderZone). I've checked it.

Secondly, if that WAS the case I am almost 100% sure that he was referring to DE Sidious, because there is absolutely no way ROTS Sidious could be on Kun's level, not by a longshot. I guarantee you if the creator said this then he WAS talking about the STRONGEST form of Sidious.

Didn't I already say the same ?

Now Yoda stalemated or almost beat ROTS Sidious, which means absolutely nothing considering DE SIdious would curbstomp him, and if you are inclined to believe that Exar Kun=strongest version of Sidious, then you are inclined to believe that Exar Kun>Yoda.

Did you miss the fact that Luke who was still almost untrained in times of DE managed to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight ? If DE Sidious can't "curpstomb" DE Luke - how would he "curpstomb" Yoda ? There is even this funny scene were Sidious floors Luke with force lightning after Luke did cut his hand off. In a similar situation Yoda did manage to block Sidious lightning with his bare hand and Mace did manage to bring up his lightsaber for defence.

@Lightsnake:

And considering Dan wallace put ROTS Sidious as the strongest Sith ever...

Considering that Sidious took quite huge amounts of knowledge from the Jedi temple, even more from the Ancient Sith later and the fact that he himself says he was stronger than ever, I guess Wallace was wrong with this statement.

Nai, we'd been over this before I know, but what's the point of being the strongest Jedi if you're incredibly inferior to numerous Sith when the light and Dark are equal?

I don't know why you have so many problems to understand the concept of the force. The force itself is an energy field - basically unlimited power. The Dark Side and the Light Side are just names for philosophies concerning the "use" of this energy.
Now of course - the both sides are "equal" because of the fact that they both use the same energy source. But the power of a force user is only determined by his personal connection to the force, his midi-chlorian count and his knowledge.
The problem is that the Jedi are limiting their personal power by their own rules while the Sith sometimes even try to archieve power that they can't control theirselves.

Now logically: If you take two persons with the same knowledge and the same force connection and put them against each other while one of them limits his own abilities to a certain extend (only defence) than it's more likely that the person who doesn't limit his power would win. Correct ? You can even take some "less powerful" person and put it against somebody who limits himself and the less powerful person might win.

when one of the reasons Yoda lost was because of the 'change of the Sith' as detailed by the ROTS novel. There's not telling what generation of Sidious Kevin was referring to...

Isn't that somehow stupid again, Lightsnake ? The "change in philosophy" is just mentioned in the ROTS novel and there is nothing to suggest that something like that happened. We've seen people like Sadow and Kun "acting behind the scenes" pretty often. And that's not even touching the question what Sidious Mr. Anderson was thinking about. Obviously a change in philosophy would have happened before Sidious since his ROTS and DE incarnations would be both past that change.

And sorry...DE Sidious was stronger than any prior version of him. Hence it doesn't make sense to compare any other version to Kun to find out who's the strongest.

Who said anything about Sidious not becoming stronger? I didn't feel a need to ask Dan to clarify he meant up to that point...even the strongest can get stronger. There's, like you said, the matter of raw power.

Limiting or not, we have quite a few records of Sith losing to Jedi, and Yoda's hardly much of a 'limiter'...he doesn't really balk at putting a saber through someone in many cases...hell, he killed a Yinchorri prisoner who could have in no way harmed him. It's basically guys 'limiting themselves' to guys whose power they can't control...problem is, what the Jedi do learn is how to counter that power.

The difference between Kun, Sadow and Sidious's behind the scenes actions: Sidious was actually dealing with moderately intelligent people and actually managed to succeed...Yoda was referring to a change in philosophy amongst the Sith and realized that they couldn't be defeated through fighting them there...'Couldn't be burned away with a lightsaber or chased away with the Force while the Jedi had spent a millenia preparing to fight the last war.'
I don't have direct access to the book, so you'll have to pardon my paraphraisng if I'm wrong.

And even though DE Sidious is his strongest incarnation, it doesn't mean other incarnations would be 'curbstomped' by Kun

Oh, Nai, new email from Tom, I'll scan it later:

There's no doubt Yoda is at the top...but the problem (as I see it) is that he was depicted as relying too much on the lightsaber in the new films... I think the film-makers lost sight of his more advanced powers...

Here was my email to Tom:

One more question, if it's alright, Mr. Veitch: How would you rate a Jedi like Yoda next to people like Exar or the Ancients? that's another thing I've been curious about, given Yoda's demigod status amongst the Jedi

Lightsnake, can this time you scan the entire email, so you don't have to tell us that you asked a bunch of other questions and got other answers that incidentally weren't in the email? THanks..

And again as I have said and Nai has said, IF there was a comparison, Kun would be compared to DE Sidious not ROTS Sidious who couldn't shine Kun's shoes. And if Kun>Sidious or Kun=Sidious then Kun>Yoda obviously, despite your quote which has already been dissected.
And Nai, you can use the fact that DE Luke cut Palpatine's hand off to improve your argument about Yoda's power, but you and I have both seen the things Palpatine does in DE. I don't know whether DE Luke is stronger than Yoda, but he did learn a lot from Palpatine and even the fact that he could stop an AT-AT says a lot about his untrained abilities, so I don't know if that is a good argument to use. But either way Exar Kun>Yoda.. Maybe by a lot, maybe by a little.

O, right, the strongest Jedi master who's mastered practically ever aspect of the light...

And what questions are these? I'm bringing this up for the argument's benefit. And no, sorry....Anderson said if they fought we might found out...that's not an implication on equality. And there's still nothing to declare what version of Sidious KJA was talking about because he might have disregarded DE completely...Kevin didn't exactly say they were equals or close to it...just that if they'd fought, we'd find out who the strongest was...in others words: "I don't know, but one of these two by whatever margin' Could he be comparing DE Sidious to Kun? Sure. Does that mean OT or ROTS Palpatine would never be able to take Kun? Or Yoda'd never be able to take Kun?

Ah yes your argument reverts back to said quote.. Wonderful lightsnake. And again I have read your email, it does NOT state that these two are the strongest sith lords ever, but of their time. Stop making it seem like they would vie for strongest sith lords ever. And yes lightsnake, if KJA was comparing the two(first off I don't see how he has any authority over Sidious at all so his opinion is just that), then he would be comparing Kun to the STRONGEST version of Sidious, which is ONLY logical. So with that comparison alone, notwithstanding all the logical arguments that have been brought into Exar Kun>Yoda, the comparison alone would warrant that conclusion..

Also go to the Ragnos thread where I posted about what the sourceook states, which would clearly contradict your theory of Palpatine>Ragnos, or rather Palpatine>All

Or he could have just not been thinking about DE whatsoever, which;d fit with ROTS Sidious bein written as the strongest Sith 'in history' (Meaning to that point) Or he might just have been referring to Sidious in general...ROTS Sidious would probably trump over Kun by the time he destroys Nadd, so?

And what exactly from this source book?

Go read.. And Exar Kun>>>>ROTS Sidious.. Ambiguous quotes mean nothing when certain powers and abilities have clearly been displayed.. Now DE Sidious might be equal to or greater than Kun, which like I said would indeed be more logical. Perhaps you need to email the guy again and ask him what version of Sidious you are talking about. I'm still waiting for my response..

Oh, please! You're clinging to RPG stats? Which were declared N-canon in the holocron database?

Ok, then...Vader>Exar Kun.

And once again...your interpretation doesn't really mean much, now does it? Unless you ARE KJA, then you cannot tell me what he meant...and no, I'm not gonna send him a question and wait a month for a single answer, thanks. And I'm trusting Nai far more than I'm trusting you on the issue. Especially as-guess what- KJA didn't say it'd be a close fight, he said nothing on how close they are in terms of power