Sama, read my thread again, notice how I acknowledged that my mentioning of Malak being #2 was irrelevant. And for the millionth time, regardless of how you think the match went, this is a superpowered Malak who lost to a light side Revan. Now since regular Malak=Dooku, superpowered Malak>>Dooku...So that speaks a lot for Revan's abilities and in regards to him being superior to Anakin.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And for the millionth time, regardless of how you think the match went, this is a superpowered Malak who lost to a light side Revan.
Care to tell me what happened in that match btw? Oh? You can't? You see, when there's no known circumstances it's hard to see what went on. From Duron Qel-Droma's vision shows Revan with a lightsaber over Malak's head. Logically it's safe to assume it was a saber battle then, but who's to say he didn't pull a win Obi-Wan style (cheap shots, and lucky hits)? Or pull a blaster out, shoot Malak in the chest, and then finish his last breaths off with a lightsaber? Or use a mine (which doesn't even blow anyone up apparently), and then finish Malak off with a lightsaber.
The fact that Revan are #1 and #2 already put them over Obiwan... And read my previous thread..
The fact Revan's #1 in a weaker era puts him over? Btw, Ulic being the #2 of his era, and Exar Kun being the #1 of the era (40 years before KOTOR) are above Revan.
The fact that Yoda > Revan ("strongest foe the Darkside has ever known" - Revan being lightside canonically) and Anakin's quote compares him to ALL generations ("perhaps of any generation"😉, so I don't see how Anakin is leagues below Revan, or Malak, for that matter.
Now, I've yet to here how well Revan would fair against Nihilus. So, it seems he's not a definite #1 for the era (As Ulic and Exar are above him), but only of the KOTOR game he was featured in.
Sama, irrelevant misdirection. I didn't put Revan over Yoda.. I put them in the same category, unless you want to start discussing the HOW.. Second of all I didn't put Revan leagues above Anakin, just above Anakin. And you can sit there all day and say "well maybe he was cheap like Obiwan", but it's been quite obvious in the SW world that the stronger combatant doesn't resolve to cheating or luck..So this isn't any different. As for Ulic>Revan, that is indeed quite debateable, because I don't see it that way.. I see Revan=Ulic.. And there's the fact that Kreia had never mentioned Ulic and Kun the way she did Revan, so you could use that as a measuring ground to some extent. Now why would you compare Revan to Nihilus? That's a ridiculous comparison. I put Nihilus in the same category as the Exile, in the "non compareable" category. Why not compare Nihilus to everyone else.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama, irrelevant misdirection.
No, it's not. You said Revan would own Anakin. I said, Yoda > Revan, and since Anakin is able to compete with Yoda, it's clear that Revan isn't that far ahead, if ahead at all.
I didn't put Revan over Yoda.. I put them in the same category, unless you want to start discussing the HOW..
How? Irrelevant (and you could never provide a "how" argument for Revan). Fact? Yes, ergo Yoda is Revan's superior. It doesn't matter "how", it just is.
I would, however, like to discuss "how" Revan beat Malak since it's a canonical event and not hypothetical.
Second of all I didn't put Revan leagues above Anakin, just above Anakin.
Considering you were saying stuff like this:
I would think Anakin and Malak stalemate if not Malak owning him
superpowered Malak>>Dooku...So that speaks a lot for Revan's abilities and in regards to him being superior to Anakin.
I'd say that implies leagues above. Since, of course, regular old Malak is able to somehow stalemate or "possibly own" Anakin, and Revan beat a super-mega-omega-mecha-kamehehahahaha-10x Malak (who you've yet to substantiate how much power the Star Forge gave him. Quantify the powers, if you will) it would imply that Revan is leagues above Anakin.
And you can sit there all day and say "well maybe he was cheap like Obiwan",
Well, I get quite bored at the computer, so I doubt I'll be doing that. But considering it's circumstances unknown, I can say whatever the hell I want and it will be just as valid as what you *think*.
but it's been quite obvious in the SW world that the stronger combatant doesn't resolve to cheating or luck..
O RLY? Proof that Revan is definitely stronger than superpowered Malak? A quote if you will by a narrator and not a fallible third party character (also note you can't use his victory because it's unknown).
And even if you do provide that, I'll simply say it was an "epic" battle, which implies that Revan didn't win by a landslide firstly. Secondly, it's not a matter of just "pulling an Obi-Wan", there's about five hundred other possible explanations. And thirdly, it's circumstances unknown, and add to the fact Star Wars is known to have nonlinear events, and battles.
As for Ulic>Revan, that is indeed quite debateable, because I don't see it that way.. I see Revan=Ulic..
It's debatable, but Ulic's feats put him above Revan in my book. Though, we're getting off subject.
And there's the fact that Kreia had never mentioned Ulic and Kun the way she did Revan, so you could use that as a measuring ground to some extent.
What? How can we use Kreia's words, who never even trained Ulic as a way to measure their power? Wow, Sexy, that's almost as illogical as using a fallible third party character (Kreia) as means to determine who's better. I mean, by using that logic, Revan > Exar Kun, because she never mentioned him that way. Or hell, even Ancient Sith > all because she treats them like gods.
I could just as easily say that Exar Kun is invincible because Jolee Bindo makes him out as such. Please, omniscient narrators and actual events > fallible third party text.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The thing is, Revan was easily the most powerful force user in an extremely martial era.
Easily? Exar Kun > Revan. Ulic > Revan. He's easily the third most powerful. Now, if you're referring to the KOTOR games strictly, then yes - he's the most powerful in the games he is featured in.
And you can call it an "extremely martial era", but by George Lucas' own testimony the PT is where we see Jedi in their "prime", which means:
prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.
Clearly not a prime number. So that means the PT is the highest quality or excellence of Jedi, he elaborates on that and says that's the reason he wanted to make the PT duels so spectacular.
Anakin was imo the fifth or sixth most powerful in a far more peaceful era.
Thankfully Star Wars doesn't conform to fit your opinion. It revolves around canon, and the ROTS novelization (being more official than you) states Anakin was the most powerful (besides Yoda due to him dying in about twenty years).
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Easily? Exar Kun > Revan. Ulic > Revan. He's easily the third most powerful. Now, if you're referring to the KOTOR games strictly, then yes - he's the most powerful in the games he is featured in.
I was referring to the KOTOR era... And he's easily the most powerful in that particular era.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
And you can call it an "extremely martial era", but by George Lucas' [i]own testimony the PT is where we see Jedi in their "prime", which means:prime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm)
adj.
First in excellence, quality, or value. See Usage Note at perfect.
First in degree or rank; chief. See Synonyms at chief.
First or early in time, order, or sequence; original.
Of the highest U.S. government grade of meat.
Mathematics. Of, relating to, or being a prime number.Clearly not a prime number. So that means the PT is the highest quality or excellence of Jedi, he elaborates on that and says that's the reason he wanted to make the PT duels so spectacular.
It's funny how people constantly make up statements in regards to the pt era. Lucas never said that. All Lucas said was that it was the Golden Age of the Jedi (he was actually reffering to the period before the clone wars). To the jedi, a golden age would be a relatively peaceful time. And since when were the pt duels so spectacular?
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Thankfully Star Wars doesn't conform to fit your [i]opinion. It revolves around canon, and the ROTS novelization (being more official than you) states Anakin was the most powerful (besides Yoda due to him dying in about twenty years).
Page numbr please? And imo Dooku, Mace Windu, Sidious and Yoda were all clearly superior. Obi-Wan was pretty close too.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I was referring to the KOTOR era... And he's easily the most powerful in that particular era.
Yes, that's all good and well, GM.
It's funny how people constantly make up statements in regards to the pt era.
Make up...? Okay, if you will - look at the reply after this...
Lucas never said that.
All Lucas said was that it was the Golden Age of the Jedi (he was actually reffering to the period before the clone wars).
Lying fanboys don't win arguments. He never even said "Golden Age", he said "Prime of the Jedi" in reference to the entire prequel trilogy.
To the jedi, a golden age would be a relatively peaceful time. And since when were the pt duels so spectacular?
I was quoting Lucas, you dolt. He said the PT (Ep. 1, 2, 3) was the "prime of the Jedi" and because of that he wanted to make the duels more spectacular (from what we saw in the OT), however, he makes perfectly clear that the PT is the prime of the Jedi, unless of course I'm delusional when I hear words like "...to see Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a more energized version and a faster version...".
And I'd also like to know how the PT is "relatively peaceful" when there's war raging on throughout each of the movies (moreso Ep. 2 and 3), plus the simple fact that the PT is about how the Empire rose to power - which was not through peace.
Page numbr please? And imo Dooku, Mace Windu, Sidious and Yoda were all clearly superior. Obi-Wan was pretty close too.
"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it." - Revenge of the Sith novelization.
Check it if you want, it's in Chapter 1.
Which was to be demonstrated.
1. OK my bad, but when that article mentions that the jedi are at their prime, it is clear that the EU is not included, just the movies as there are constant comparisons made between the OT and PT, and choreography is the main aspect of the movies talked about. The EU is never taken into consideration.
2. The period between some time before TPM and just before AOTC was called The Golden Age of The Jedi, which would mean a peaceful democratic time where the Republic was at the height of its power. I mean the most practiced lightsaber form at the time was Niman, the diplomat's form. The thing is, martial times generally produce better warriors than peaceful times, and when the Clone Wars arrived, the jedi had molded into peacekeepers who were not prepared for such a war and while the Clone Wars made them more powerful, by the time of ROTS they were hardly as a whole, great warriors.
3. Ok I just read that bit, however I don't really trust statements like that. I mean I heard from someone that Lucas said, 'if you want to compete with the emporer, you need to be either Mace or Yoda.', which clearly contradicts that.
How did this get back to Nebaris vs. Sama? And Sama, you want a quote to prove Revan was stronger than Malak? Play the Star Forge level, listen carefully to what Malak said including "You are stronger now than you were as the Dark Lord". Revan was stronger than Malak when he was the Dark Lord, and MALAK himself saying that he's even stronger now should be conclusive. If it isn't conclusive for you, read the storyline for KOTOR when it states that "Revan proved too strong for Malak who was powered by the SF".
1.) Okay, so I guess when Lucas says stuff on commentary, even though he's the ultimate power over Star Wars, it never includes EU. Care to explain how Lucas' own words are capable of retconning the EU then? There's only one definition for prime in that context, and it is "highest quality, or excellence" of Jedi. That pertains to Star Wars Universe as a whole that the PT > all other eras of Jedi (save for the NJO, in which I don't consider to be upholders of the actual Jedi philosophy anyways). Basically, you're arguing with Lucas; I'd advise you otherwise.
You don't understand. It doesn't matter. The statement was made by George Lucas, who has The Ultimate Say™ over anything and everything in Star Wars. He could say Palpatine is most powerful Sith Lord, and it'd be so - even if he wasn't making his decision based of EU, it's his words.
If you had The Ultimate Say™ like George Lucas did, then maybe you could hold some power over what it stems to, but you don't. You don't have The Ultimate Say™, Lucas does. So, let it be known: Lucas' word is gospel. The PT is the Jedi prime.
2.) Okay, so the time between TPM and AOTC is the "Golden Age of the Jedi", which does speak for their ideals, and it would be somewhat peaceful. However, this is Star Wars. You know, Star Wars - where it's freaking fantasy. Martial times can produce better warriors, but it matters more or less on the warriors. Clearly we see almost everyone in the PT regarded as "powerful", "strong in the Force", "prodigies", "best swordsman", "finest swordsbeings", etc. as opposed to the handful in the Old Republic.
The simple fact is that Lucas stated (made fact) that the PT is the highest quality, or excellence of Jedi, so it doesn't matter if the time was more martial. Lucas' words are facts.
I'd also say that just because soldiers back in '67 were in the Vietnam War, when it was more martial as opposed to prior to 9/11 (and I'm not good on U.S. history, considering this isn't even my country lol), doesn't necessarily mean that time period had better soldiers.
Odd comparison, but hopefully you get the point.
3.) No, that statement from what I've heard included Anakin (from people here of course). On top of the fact there's no source for it either way.
How did this get back to Nebaris vs. Sama?
We're debating a different subject, so I hardly think it matters. We went from talking about Revan to discussing which era is better, lol. 😕
And Sama, you want a quote to prove Revan was stronger than Malak?
Yes, I do.
Play the Star Forge level, listen carefully to what Malak said including "You are stronger now than you were as the Dark Lord". Revan was stronger than Malak when he was the Dark Lord, and MALAK himself saying that he's even stronger now should be conclusive.
You call that proof? If there was a smiley that had a 😖coff: I would post it. So for now, I'll put suprised: surprise
Revan was stronger than Malak as a DLOTS, true. However, Malak only said that Revan is stronger than his Darkside incarnate, he never said he was more powerful than super-mecha-ultima-omega-delta-alpha-10x-ace-divine-father&sonkamehhahaha Malak. And he also never said that Malak while being charged by the SF is weaker than DLOTS Revan, ergo the quote you gave me (and thus your point) collapses.
If it isn't conclusive for you, read the storyline for KOTOR when it states that "Revan proved too strong for Malak who was powered by the SF".
What storyline?
Malak even says to Revan that if he would have discovered the secrets of the SF for himself, perhaps he would have become invincible. Revan was able to defeat Malak when he was powered by the SF to an extremely high degree, and this was after he had progressed through a entire fortress full of dark jedi, sith soldiers and advanced battle droids. There is no way that Revan is not stronger than Malak.
Look I'll be back tomorrow night but 2 things..
Revan was confirmed to be more powerful than Malak in the Starforge. Yoda>Revan could mean force abilities, saber combat or both..
Anakin was NEVER on par with Yoda, if you said that(I think you did), you are wrong.
The fact that Revan beat Malak in the SF implies that he is superior to all 3 combatants and possibly inferior to only Yoda.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The article wasn't written by George Lucas, Mokoto.
EDIT: It's in the movie clip, George Lucas says it himself. For example, when you open your mouth to say "Mother, can I have some snausages?" that's the equivalent to what GL did, except he made a declarative and informative statement. He physically spoke those words as seen in the clip.
Well you could have been clearer. I thought you were referring to the article.
Anyway, when Gl stated 'Prime of The Jedi', he might have meant prime of the jedi order, which could have a meaning interpreted to be just like The Golden Age of The Jedi. He was also very vague when he said it, so you can't just assume that it disputes many pieces of EU material. There is also the fact that the whole video and article discusses choreography, and thus solely the movies. It seems that they were completely disregarding the EU at the time imo.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
EDIT: It's in the movie clip, George Lucas says it himself. For example, when you open your mouth to say "Mother, can I have some snausages?" that's the equivalent to what GL did, except he made a declarative and informative statement. He physically spoke those words as seen in the clip.
Great explanation Mokoto. Very witty.