Originally posted by Grimm22
Man why the hell do you hate conservitives so much?!?! 🤨Seriously, its ironic that you streotype all conservitives as evil money hungry bastards
I don't hate Conservatives. I think Conservatives for the most part are unaware of the true agendas of those people they support. Ultra Right Wingers are closed minded...there is no debate about that....its just fact.
Conservatism is about keeping things the same, and is not open to social change. Conservatives in power try to make us forget about the evils of poverty, hatred, and discrimination and instead try to bombard us with the "evils" of Atheism, homosexuality, feminism, and the Anthem being spoken in Spanish. 🙄
Instead of trying to illiminate poverty, Conservatives want to "protect marriage". Give me a break man.....
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't hate Conservatives. I think Conservatives for the most part are unaware of the true agendas of those people they support. Ultra Right Wingers are closed minded...there is no debate about that....its just fact.Conservatism is about keeping things the same, and is not open to social change. Conservatives in power try to make us forget about the evils of poverty, hatred, and discrimination and instead try to bombard us with the "evils" of Atheism, homosexuality, feminism, and the Anthem being spoken in Spanish. 🙄
Instead of trying to illiminate poverty, Conservatives want to "protect marriage". Give me a break man.....
While I don't agree with Republicans on all issues and definitely admit that there are extreme bomb throwers on the conservative side of the aisle, you must concede that liberals have plenty of carnival side-shows under their tent as well.
As a conservative I would answer your charge of insensitivity on issues such as discrimination and poverty by challenging your assumption that government is the chief means of correction. Since the Johnson administration and before, vast amounts of resources and national treasure have been heaped upon the war on poverty and the building of a "great society" with little to no affect. In fact, I would argue that rather than helping, most of these government programs actually hurt the poor by subsidizing vicious generational cycles of bad decision making.
Fear of failure is a great motivator. The need to feel secure in some government funded state of squalor is not better than running the risk of doing better for oneself. Given the choice between three squares a day in my government provided shopping cart and the risks associated with finding a job, I'll take the latter.
Of course, the culture in most minority neighborhoods is poisonous to this kind of thinking. Instilled values are usually the opposite of the one's actually needed to make it. But most of these problems must be faced by and corrected by the community itself, not some government bureaucrat. I live in the South, surrounded by poor blacks. The culture is truly depressing and disheartening.
Consider for a moment the plight of the poor black youth. He must first survive young adulthood, by which time, he is likely either to be incarcerated or killed by other black men. If he clears that hurdle, he must somehow find it in himself to study and achieve in school despite the fact that his peers will disown him and call him a sell-out by and large for doing so--as if being authentically "black" means that one has to necessarily be an illiterate, anti-social, Neanderthal. Then, there is the poverty and the lack of appropriate adult roll models. To most young black men, it must seem like the only legitimate ways out of the ghetto are professional sports, rap, or music production.
All this being said, tell me how any government program could in any way address these problems.
I understand that liberals feel bad about the plight of minorities and the poor. I think most conservative do as well. Where we differ is on our relative willingness to dump public money on a problem that so clearly demands individual effort and the rebuilding of communities from within.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
While I don't agree with Republicans on all issues and definitely admit that there are extreme bomb throwers on the conservative side of the aisle, you must concede that liberals have plenty of carnival side-shows under their tent as well.
Ofcourse. There are some Extremist Liberals that I disagree with just as much as Ultra Right Wingers. Some Liberals have idealogies that are so unrealistic (ex: anarchism as a system), while others think things like Freedom of Speech is Absolute, and that the Age of Consent for children should not be limitted, that it should be any age the child wishes to have sex with an adult..and so on.
Dude, i do not think all Liberals are right or realistic. Some of my point of views happen to be conservative, but for the most part I identify myself as moderate Liberal.
Still....Ultra Right Wingers are no better. They desire anti-progress, while extremist Liberals seem to desire Chaos.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
As a conservative I would answer your charge of insensitivity on issues such as discrimination and poverty by challenging your assumption that government is the chief means of correction. Since the Johnson administration and before, vast amounts of resources and national treasure have been heaped upon the war on poverty and the building of a "great society" with little to no affect. In fact, I would argue that rather than helping, most of these government programs actually hurt the poor by subsidizing vicious generational cycles of bad decision making.
Good point, but I think you are forgetting a huge fact in the matter. An ENORMOUS fraction of that nation's wealth belongs to the few 20% of wealthy Americans, who happen to be W.A.S.P. Elite Conservatives. While the rest of us middle class or lower class, whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. have to scramble each other for the remainder of the resources which is very little in comparison to the property and money possessed by the limitted Elite alone.
This sets the economy up so that a large # of minorities (including poor whites) will remain poor for a long time, while only a few Individuals of those groups have to work hard as hell to pull themselves out of thier economic strain.
Not to mention how the Protestant Elite don't have to labor for thier wealth. They keep getting thier wealth from inherittance, land ownership, investments, employing and exploiting the majority of lower classes, etc. Most of them have more money than they can even spend in thier lifetime.
What does that tell u ?
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Fear of failure is a great motivator. The need to feel secure in some government funded state of squalor is not better than running the risk of doing better for oneself. Given the choice between three squares a day in my government provided shopping cart and the risks associated with finding a job, I'll take the latter.
There is no shame in doing things for yourself. But that's what you don't get. It seems to me that you are assuming that the lower class are there, because of thier own laziness or lack of motivation, and that is a HUGE LIE....
Almost every person of the lower/middle classes works thier asses off to get what they have, yet most of them remain in that class with thier economic stress for the rest of thier lives.
What factors are involved? I'll tell ya buddy:
-Low funding for public schools in minority areas
-Low income for hard labor
-Low funding for community housing in urban areas
-Cumulation of Taxes, Bills, Rent, tuition, etc. that disallow many families from making Savings $
-Stereo types in the media which label the low class as "hicks" "rednecks" "sp*cs" etc. so that we don't feel sorry for them
-Low income for Nurses, Police Officers, Fire Fighters, and Doctors who live in Urban Areas...why would the best of these work in an area where they get paid nothing?
-Low income for teachers in Urban areas
-etc.etc.etc.etc.
Oh, did you know that there is a penalty for hiring illegal immigrants? A huge penalty, even a jail sentence, yet so many employers higher illegals, don't get penalized, and this jeapordizes jobs for the legal low class.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Of course, the culture in most minority neighborhoods is poisonous to this kind of thinking. Instilled values are usually the opposite of the one's actually needed to make it. But most of these problems must be faced by and corrected by the community itself, not some government bureaucrat. I live in the South, surrounded by poor blacks. The culture is truly depressing and disheartening.
Though I agree that some cultural aspects may contribute to a community's lack of self esteem or drive (for example, in Catholicism it is said that rich people don't make it to Heaven) or even Rap Culture which glorifies "the ghetto" and "being gangsta"...
These cannot account of every individual of that community. There are mothers, fathers, and children in urban areas who loathe this kind of culture, yet are stuck in it. When they protest against this negativity, they are met with violence from neighbors.
For example, in the South Bronx, N.Y., there are many gangs, but there are also many good people. However, good people are in constant fear of being mugged, raped, or even killed just for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Police Officers don't get paid much in the Bronx, and the Living Conditions are HORRIBLE ! How many officers do you think voluntarily work in this kind of neighborhood? None who are concerned with thier well being....
The Government, whether State of Federal, has yet to do much to alleviate these situations. The Bronx is getting better, but not quite there yet. Higher Funding for schools, more security to protect the children and residents, better wages for police officers and fire fighters, higher funding for housing and projects would do so much more than anything the Community could collectively accomplish.
Personal Culture only plays a fraction in a community's well being. 😉
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Consider for a moment the plight of the poor black youth. He must first survive young adulthood, by which time, he is likely either to be incarcerated or killed by other black men. If he clears that hurdle, he must somehow find it in himself to study and achieve in school despite the fact that his peers will disown him and call him a sell-out by and large for doing so--as if being authentically "black" means that one has to necessarily be an illiterate, anti-social, Neanderthal. Then, there is the poverty and the lack of appropriate adult roll models. To most young black men, it must seem like the only legitimate ways out of the ghetto are professional sports, rap, or music production.
1) The black youth may be killed by another black man, a while police officer, a hispanic, any gang member, a jealous ex girlfreind, a dog, or by a car accident. You seem to be stereotyping, sorry.
2) Yes, and this cultural bullshit is disturbing ! The Rap and Hip Hop, not to mention Machoism ideal, and urban pride, seem to do a lot in terms of peer pressure and making it harder for an individual to get far, not to mention the fear of violence.
3) However, how do you think this started? Why does the ghetto exist in the first place? Why were these blacks poor to being with? Why is violence glorified, why are the schools unsafe, why are most teachers in ghettos impatient, why do black complexes develop?
Ask yourself these questions, and get back to me.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
All this being said, tell me how any government program could in any way address these problems.
I beleive I already have, but here it goes:
1)Tax cuts- not huge tax cuts, but just enough to allow families in these areas to spend money on themselves or thier children, for more than JUST the essentials. Stealing is not a necessity when you have enough of your own money.
2)Higher wages for teachers, Higher funding for Schools- teachers being payed more motivates more teachers to want to work in these urban areas, motivates teachers from different areas, promoting the diversity, not just of race, but of mentality. Security in schools should be paid more, more security guards should be hired to prevent school bullying and violence. Schools in these areas should be hooked up with more computers, updated and affordable textbooks, a higher range of classes which expose children to truths outside thier "ghetto", more curricular activities such as music, art, sports which will give children something else to do besides "just chill on the street"
3)Higher wages for Police Officers- will have more money for resources and equipment, will be able to keep residents safer, the more officers hired the more sense for security in the neighborhood, gang violence and drug dealings would dramatically decrease, assuming the Police Department is cyclicly reviewed by the State.
4)Higher funding for housing and homes- some of the buildings in the Bronx look like slums..oh wait, that's because some of them ARE SLUMS....some buildings are broken down, useless, and just taking up space for YEARS, instead of being rebuild to fit more families in. The nicer your environment, the higher your confidense, the higher your visions, and the more equal you feel.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I understand that liberals feel bad about the plight of minorities and the poor. I think most conservative do as well. Where we differ is on our relative willingness to dump public money on a problem that so clearly demands individual effort and the rebuilding of communities from within.
Individual Effort has existed for the past ten to twenty years. 😉 With high taxes, poor education, mainstream violence, and underpaid officials running these communities, the communities have LITTLE CHANCE of elevating themselves without much of the Government's help.
The Government and High Class has MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY to solve most of these problems. It is not a matter of laziness on the part of the poor...it is a matter of greed and discrimination on part of the rich. 😉
OK. Here we go.
Good point, but I think you are forgetting a huge fact in the matter. An ENORMOUS fraction of that nation's wealth belongs to the few 20% of wealthy Americans, who happen to be W.A.S.P. Elite Conservatives. While the rest of us middle class or lower class, whites, blacks, hispanics, etc. have to scramble each other for the remainder of the resources which is very little in comparison to the property and money possessed by the limited Elite alone.
Here is a classic misconception of how free market economies work. You are assuming that there is some set amount of money to be distributed among the masses, and, by virtue of the fact that the wealthy control a disproportionate amount, the rest of the population is left to scramble for the remainders.
First of all, in a free economy, wealth naturally accumulates in the hands of risk-takers (capitalists) who wish to start their own businesses. By putting up some kind of collateral (assuming risk) they borrow money and set up shop. If the business is a success, they make money, yes. But they also start hiring people (jobs) and increase the overall circulation of cash within the larger economy. Higher velocity cash flows lead to cheaper money and easier credit. The economy expands. The total pie of money increases, provided this increase is rapid enough to counteract inflation.
The result? People have access to more. Even the lowly. You might know this phenomenon by the derisive term "trickle down economics". This is crap. Trickle down it might be, but it's how wealth is distributed in a free system. Compare the plight of the comparative poor in this country, who still have access to t.v.'s, air conditioning, shelter, etc..., with those living in, say, Calcutta. I bring up this example not to downplay the condition of the destitute in this country, but only to illustrate how the actions of the wealthy create a general improvement in the conditions of everyday life for the masses. The rich might be assholes, but they're a necessary evil and much better than the alternative--control of the economy by a select few in the Washington who can't possibly substitute their limited knowledge and good intentions for the far more efficient means of disseminating supply and demand information through prices derived from everyday market forces.
Almost every person of the lower/middle classes works their asses off to get what they have, yet most of them remain in that class with their economic stress for the rest of their lives.
We're talking about two different classes of people here. The working lower-middle class indeed has it very tough. Part of the problem is a burdensome tax structure. By all means, cut the taxes.
What factors are involved? I'll tell ya buddy:
-Low funding for public schools in minority areas
No one knows more about the plight of underpaid teachers than me. I was one. But dumping money at the public school system is not an answer in itself. Special interests in the system leach away tons of tax payer money. Plus, many of the problems in the school are actually symptomatic of poor home conditions and lack of family/community encouragement.
Low income for hard labor
Manual labor is hard. I did this gig too. But unfortunately, hard manual labor is only worth what the market is willing to pay. The reason it's cheap is because anyone can do it.
Low funding for community housing in urban areas
Again, this goes back to my point about the government subsidation of bad choices. I live about one hour from New Orleans and have seen close up the blight of government funded housing projects. Paying poor urban blacks to live in this condition is not a mercy.
And while we're talking about this, let me say that it is the project dwellers about whom I was speaking when I mentioned the plight of black America, not the working middle class. And, yes, by and large, the people that live in these places are not actively seeking work or going to school. Most of the adult men sit on the street in the middle of the afternoon and drink beer out of paper bags. Truant kids run around unsupervised. These aren't stereotypes. This is life in the projects.
1) The black youth may be killed by another black man, a while police officer, a hispanic, any gang member, a jealous ex girlfreind, a dog, or by a car accident. You seem to be stereotyping, sorry.
True, but statistically speaking, black men are far and away the largest killers of other black men. Its not even close.
3) However, how do you think this started? Why does the ghetto exist in the first place? Why were these blacks poor to being with? Why is violence glorified, why are the schools unsafe, why are most teachers in ghettos impatient, why do black complexes develop?
Ok. I've asked myself these questions. The answer is that those living in government-subsidied squalor were taught by virtue of their position in said predicament that no one believed they could actually make it on their own and behave responsibly. They would be paid to live in subsistence level conditions without having to give any accountability for their actions and choices in return for doing nothing but staying out of sight and assuaging white guilt. These lessons were learned only far to well.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive I already have, but here it goes:1)[b]Tax cuts
- not huge tax cuts, but just enough to allow families in these areas to spend money on themselves or thier children, for more than JUST the essentials. Stealing is not a necessity when you have enough of your own money.2)Higher wages for teachers, Higher funding for Schools- teachers being payed more motivates more teachers to want to work in these urban areas, motivates teachers from different areas, promoting the diversity, not just of race, but of mentality. Security in schools should be paid more, more security guards should be hired to prevent school bullying and violence. Schools in these areas should be hooked up with more computers, updated and affordable textbooks, a higher range of classes which expose children to truths outside thier "ghetto", more curricular activities such as music, art, sports which will give children something else to do besides "just chill on the street"
3)Higher wages for Police Officers- will have more money for resources and equipment, will be able to keep residents safer, the more officers hired the more sense for security in the neighborhood, gang violence and drug dealings would dramatically decrease, assuming the Police Department is cyclicly reviewed by the State.
4)Higher funding for housing and homes- some of the buildings in the Bronx look like slums..oh wait, that's because some of them ARE SLUMS....some buildings are broken down, useless, and just taking up space for YEARS, instead of being rebuild to fit more families in. The nicer your environment, the higher your confidense, the higher your visions, and the more equal you feel.
Individual Effort has existed for the past ten to twenty years. 😉 With high taxes, poor education, mainstream violence, and underpaid officials running these communities, the communities have LITTLE CHANCE of elevating themselves without much of the Government's help.
The Government and High Class has MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY to solve most of these problems. It is not a matter of laziness on the part of the poor...it is a matter of greed and discrimination on part of the rich. 😉 [/B]
1) Tax cuts have always promoted a strong economy. Lower taxes means that their is more money for investment, research and development of new technologies.
2) The Education problem in this country is almost an epidemic. As the wealthiest country in the world, the U.S.A. should be the most educated. Our teacher's lack the resources, security and compensation to properly prepare children for adult life.
3) Law enforcement should have the most up to date equipment, technology and resources to keep the peace. These people put their lives on the line daily and should not be sent out understaffed and under-equipped.
4) Local and Federal Governments have an obligation to send money into declining neighborhoods to spark revitalization (gentrification). The long term effect of such an investment is a larger, more stable tax base and a safer neighborhood.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
While I don't agree with Republicans on all issues and definitely admit that there are extreme bomb throwers on the conservative side of the aisle, you must concede that liberals have plenty of carnival side-shows under their tent as well.
Typical. Bomb throwers are preferable to circus freaks like **** and baby killers?
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
As a conservative I would answer your charge of insensitivity on issues such as discrimination and poverty by challenging your assumption that government is the chief means of correction. Since the Johnson administration and before, vast amounts of resources and national treasure have been heaped upon the war on poverty and the building of a "great society" with little to no affect. In fact, I would argue that rather than helping, most of these government programs actually hurt the poor by subsidizing vicious generational cycles of bad decision making.
You answer the charge of insensativity with the idea of removing the responsability of teh government...because it is a largely conservative government? However, I agree that the government can't effect the actions of john q public in regards to his interaction with a minority. But, let's not forget that the poor are the majority in this country. And that certainly is an issue the government can effect. What's the real difference between the labourer that makes minimum wage and the single mother on welfare? Both are living under the poverty line. And dumping resources into the fight agasinst poverty is a waste of time as long as the best those people will ever do is getting off welfare and making minimum wage. So, who's to blame? A government that is controlled by buisness. By democrat buisness AND republican buisness.
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Fear of failure is a great motivator. The need to feel secure in some government funded state of squalor is not better than running the risk of doing better for oneself. Given the choice between three squares a day in my government provided shopping cart and the risks associated with finding a job, I'll take the latter.
See above
Of course, the culture in most minority neighborhoods is poisonous to this kind of thinking. Instilled values are usually the opposite of the one's actually needed to make it. [/B][/QUOTE]
That is just crap man. So, you're saying that the slave culture that blacks in this country came from has some how morphed itself in to a culture of social/cultural parasites that are still sitting around waiting for their fourty acres and a mule?
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Consider for a moment the plight of the poor black youth. He must first survive young adulthood, by which time, he is likely either to be incarcerated or killed by other black men. If he clears that hurdle, he must somehow find it in himself to study and achieve in school despite the fact that his peers will disown him and call him a sell-out by and large for doing so--as if being authentically "black" means that one has to necessarily be an illiterate, anti-social, Neanderthal. Then, there is the poverty and the lack of appropriate adult roll models. To most young black men, it must seem like the only legitimate ways out of the ghetto are professional sports, rap, or music production.
Must somehow find it in himself? What about a white kid on social security? If you want to examine the plight of being black, remove the responsability of the government in the whole situation, then what are you left with? You're left with the rest of the population. And when people out there think like you do, then theres no wonder the deck is stacked against them.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Not to mention, the people in power.
I'm glad you responded. You've done well for yourself and you've had children and you strike me as pretty happy. I don't doubt that it might have been a struggle at times in your youth, but what helped more? People with attitudes like Docs or your own motivation?
Originally posted by Soleran
Hey Captain its about time you donate that income to those less forunate and learn to live on 30k or less a year🙂
When I start making more than 30 k a year...I just might. NOT
But I've made more than 40K a year...and I had the responsability to hire and fire people to perfom a job. And you know what....it wasn't the young black men that worked for me that never showed up. 9 times out of 10 it was the white guys with piss poor attitudes and the older black men. On top of that, I made sure they were making more than minimum wage. I made sure they made upwards of 9 bucks an hour, and had health insurance that was affordable.(60% was company funded) So far, I think that makes me 10 times more helpful than the governemnt or the people who own it through the activities of lobbyists.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
When I start making more than 30 k a year...I just might. NOTBut I've made more than 40K a year...and I had the responsability to hire and fire people to perfom a job. And you know what....it wasn't the young black men that worked for me that never showed up. 9 times out of 10 it was the white guys with piss poor attitudes and the older black men. On top of that, I made sure they were making more than minimum wage. I made sure they made upwards of 9 bucks an hour, and had health insurance that was affordable.(60% was company funded) So far, I think that makes me 10 times more helpful than the governemnt or the people who own it through the activities of lobbyists.
I don't get it.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
When I start making more than 30 k a year...I just might. NOTBut I've made more than 40K a year...and I had the responsability to hire and fire people to perfom a job. And you know what....it wasn't the young black men that worked for me that never showed up. 9 times out of 10 it was the white guys with piss poor attitudes and the older black men. On top of that, I made sure they were making more than minimum wage. I made sure they made upwards of 9 bucks an hour, and had health insurance that was affordable.(60% was company funded) So far, I think that makes me 10 times more helpful than the governemnt or the people who own it through the activities of lobbyists.
Wow you complicated the whole piece, socialize and make 30k or less your responsibility means nothing to me.
Wanna hear about my job too? 🙄
Originally posted by Soleran
Wow you complicated the whole piece, socialize and make 30k or less your responsibility means nothing to me.Wanna hear about my job too? 🙄
If you don't want to hear irrelevant bits of information, then don't ask irrelevant questions...or make irrelevant claims, like I'm not willing to put my money where my mouth is.