cap vs spider-man

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Arg. It was a ROBOT. ROBOTS, no matter much they are blood-lusted, cannot think and react in the same way a PERSON can. For the most part, robots usually can't adapt to new situations quick enough to be efficient. People, on the other hand, can. So, trying to kill Cap or not, a Spidey-bot is not going to fight anywhere near as effectively as Spider-MAN.

And the 20 ton figure comes from his recent physical upgrade. Prior to this, Spidey had 15 ton strength. It was stated (somewhere in the comic during the "The Other" arc) that all of his physical attributes were upgraded slightly. 20 tons is an approximation made by general consensus.

Hell, Spidey's been shown, on multiple occassions at that, to be able to lift even more than 20 tons when the situation calls for it. I reccomend you check the Spidey Respect thread.

Thats a complete assumption. Some robots can react some cant. Have you heard of Nimrod and Machine man they both can react better than humans.

So how did you know he could lift 15 tons? Oh yeah Cap has shown strength in the 5+ ton range.

By the way doesnt his Spider sence only work if you try and suprise him, after the initial warning and you fight him head on there is no warning. Am i right?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats a complete assumption. Some robots can react some cant. Have you heard of Nimrod and Machine man they both can react better than humans.

So how did you know he could lift 15 tons? Oh yeah Cap has shown strength in the 5+ ton range.

15 tons has been stated on multiple occasions by him. Also just look at the stuff that he's lifted before and you can see he's even lifted more than that. Seriously check out the Spider-Man respect thread

Originally posted by Alfheim
By the way doesnt his Spider sence only work if you try and suprise him, after the initial warning and you fight him head on there is no warning. Am i right?

No you are not. His spider-sense warns of any sort of impending danger. There is no initial surprise and then nothing. Anytime there is any sort of threat his is alerted of it and instinctive reacts to avoid it

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats a complete assumption. Some robots can react some cant. Have you heard of Nimrod and Machine man they both can react better than humans.

So how did you know he could lift 15 tons? Oh yeah Cap has shown strength in the 5+ ton range.

Nimrod was also a futuristic, advanced, adapting, mutant-killing machine. Like comparing apples and oranges...

I know that Spidey was previoulsy in the 15 ton strength category because it was stated both many times in the comics AND in the handbooks. They didn't contradict each other.

And what's an example of Cap lifting anything resembling 5 tons? Seriously, just show me a scan or provide me with the comic evidence. No assumptions please. I'd like it to be clearly labelled, either by the narration or stated elsewhere in the comic) that the object weighs 5 tons.

Originally posted by marvelprince
No you are not. His spider-sense warns of any sort of impending danger. There is no initial surprise and then nothing. Anytime there is any sort of threat his is alerted of it and instinctive reacts to avoid it

Exactly. His Spider-sense is ALWAYS working. Before a fight, during a fight, after a fight.

Marvelprince my point is its a comic book!

How does Hawkeye shoot weapons out of multiple attackers hands. You mean he reaches back pulls the string and fires several arrows before anyone can do anything or shoot him....that is superhuman.

How does Dr Doom create technology that matches those people who have superhuman intelligence. They say hes a genuis but the comic shows he has superhuman intelligence.

In the marvel universe peak human ability with extrodinary skill = superhuman....its a comic!

Originally posted by Alfheim
Marvelprince my point is its a comic book!

How does Hawkeye shoot weapons out of multiple attackers hands. You mean he reaches back pulls the string and fires several arrows before anyone can do anything or shoot him....that is superhuman.

How does Dr Doom create technology that matches those people who have superhuman intelligence. They say hes a genuis but the comic shows he has superhuman intelligence.

In the marvel universe peak human ability with extrodinary skill = superhuman....its a comic!

Dude, in the Marvel Universe humans are capable of much more than they would be normally. Hawkeye example. Of course its impossible in the real world but in Marvel that is considered normal. With enough training anyone can do it. Same thing with Dr Doom. Which is why there are many other genuises in the MU w/o powers. Its simply that in Marvel the bar for human achievement is set higher than it is in the real world. There is nothing superhuman about what Cap, Hawkeye or Daredevil can do since anyone in the MU with enough training can accomplish the same. The same way there is nothing superhuman about Hank Pym, Dr Doom or Tony Stark's genuis cause some could apply themselves to reach their level of genius. You really need to look at things in perspective

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Nimrod was also a futuristic, advanced, adapting, mutant-killing machine. Like comparing apples and oranges...

I know that Spidey was previoulsy in the 15 ton strength category because it was stated both many times in the comics AND in the handbooks. They didn't contradict each other.

And what's an example of Cap lifting anything resembling 5 tons? Seriously, just show me a scan or provide me with the comic evidence. No assumptions please. I'd like it to be clearly labelled, either by the narration or stated elsewhere in the comic) that the object weighs 5 tons.

No no no no Nimrod was a highly advanced inteligent robot. In any case if he wasnt machine man was.

Well ok its not clear cut, I went to the marvel database project and it says that cap could benchpress at least 1100 and they showed a pic. They then said he has been know to lift near the 5+ range and gave examples of feats that are 5+. Ok not clear cut but its debatable

Marvel Database project
<for examples like buckling thick steel doors in Captain America Medusa Effect or tearing steel off of a tractor, in Cap v1 #339. To even in Dead Man Running #2 he pulled a supply truck through the Desert to bring food too unfortunate children.>

Hmm that sounds like more 1-5 tons rather than 5+ really.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Exactly. His Spider-sense is ALWAYS working. Before a fight, during a fight, after a fight.

Metalmanx! Didnt Marvelprince just say that its not always working read the thread again. Am i wrong?

Originally posted by marvelprince
Dude, in the Marvel Universe humans are capable of much more than they would be normally. Hawkeye example. Of course its impossible in the real world but in Marvel that is considered normal. With enough training anyone can do it. Same thing with Dr Doom. Which is why there are many other genuises in the MU w/o powers. Its simply that in Marvel the bar for human achievement is set higher than it is in the real world. There is nothing superhuman about what Cap, Hawkeye or Daredevil can do since anyone in the MU with enough training can accomplish the same. The same way there is nothing superhuman about Hank Pym, Dr Doom or Tony Stark's genuis cause some could apply themselves to reach their level of genius. You really need to look at things in perspective

Explian this if Dr Doom doesnt have superhuman intelligence why does he create technology thats matches superhuman intelligence, please explain.

**** me, I said I'd stop arguing...

Look, it comes down to this; no matter how much you think you know about a character, unless you are getting a paycheck that says "marvel" on it, all you can do is speculate. I mean, you can argue with me till the ****ing cows come home, but you can't even pretend to argue with Marvel. They put it in plain black and white. Spider-man himself said it. If it wasn't for the new Iron-Spider upgrades, Cap would have taken him, likely, without Spider-man ever landing a punch.

Spider-man's stronger? Yeah. Faster? Yeah. More Agile? Yeah. Blah blah blah. Captain America, by comic book standards, has more than enough skill to make up for all of these disadvantages. I don't think ANYONE is arguing that Cap's strength could compete with Peter's. Nor his speed. But it is his skill. His super-human, preternatural skill that allows him to match foes that are so VASTLY his physical superior. Like Spider-man.

I said earlier that I wasn't planning on arguing anymore, and I still really am not. I just wanted to point out, that...you aren't arguing with me. You're arguing with Marvel's black and white. Cap would have taken Spider-man pre-upgrades 6/10. That is plain admission by Spider-man. Steve KNOWS spider-man, he knows how he'll attack, he knows where and how he'll dodge. He expects it all already.

He DIDN'T expect to be attacked by a metallic third arm, though. Hence, he couldn't dodge it. Why not? It was going at spider-man like speeds. Steve can't dodge something like that unless he EXPECTS it before hand. The way he'll expect every move in regular-Spider-man's repetoire.

Versus current Spidey, though? Cap loses 7/10.

*sigh* And I very much hope that I'm done.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Explian this if Dr Doom doesnt have superhuman intelligence why does he create technology thats matches superhuman intelligence, please explain.

Then tell me what he creates that exceeds superhuman intelligence. WHat do you even consider superhuman intelligence, cause if where baasing Reed Richards as the human than Dr Doom is nothing more than a man

Ok what about this whose smarter the Leader or Dr Doom? Is there anything that the Leader has built that Dr Doom cant?

Originally posted by Soljer
**** me, I said I'd stop arguing...

Look, it comes down to this; no matter how much you think you know about a character, unless you are getting a paycheck that says "marvel" on it, all you can do is speculate. I mean, you can argue with me till the ****ing cows come home, but you can't even pretend to argue with Marvel. They put it in plain black and white. Spider-man himself said it. If it wasn't for the new Iron-Spider upgrades, Cap would have taken him, likely, without Spider-man ever landing a punch.

Spider-man's stronger? Yeah. Faster? Yeah. More Agile? Yeah. Blah blah blah. Captain America, by comic book standards, has more than enough skill to make up for all of these disadvantages. I don't think ANYONE is arguing that Cap's strength could compete with Peter's. Nor his speed. But it is his skill. His super-human, preternatural skill that allows him to match foes that are so VASTLY his physical superior. Like Spider-man.

I said earlier that I wasn't planning on arguing anymore, and I still really am not. I just wanted to point out, that...you aren't arguing with me. You're arguing with Marvel's black and white. Cap would have taken Spider-man pre-upgrades 6/10. That is plain admission by Spider-man. Steve KNOWS spider-man, he knows how he'll attack, he knows where and how he'll dodge. He expects it all already.

He DIDN'T expect to be attacked by a metallic third arm, though. Hence, he couldn't dodge it. Why not? It was going at spider-man like speeds. Steve can't dodge something like that unless he EXPECTS it before hand. The way he'll expect every move in regular-Spider-man's repetoire.

Versus current Spidey, though? Cap loses 7/10.

*sigh* And I very much hope that I'm done.

Nice post, but so very flawed. I can get a job at Marvel right now and have Antman sting Galactus on the toe and have Galactus say that he's powerless against ants. I would hope that you wouldn't take it as fact that Antman can beat Galactus. Thats the beauty of these forums. All PIS, CIS etc are removed. If you want to go by feats then I can think of 2 instances off the top of my head when Cap remarks and how he can never hope to match Spider-Man's speed. We can look at Civil War 3 at how easily Cap was being put down put down. We also need to look at the context. The loss to Cap was meant to be emotional and show a turning point. It was like a fight between right and wrong and pointed out that he was on the wrong side. Anyway, if you are gonna completely ignore both characters abilites and just go with Cap beat him so there then I don't think this forum is the place for you

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok what about this whose smarter the Leader or Dr Doom? Is there anything that the Leader has built that Dr Doom cant?

Conversely is there anything that Doom has built that the Leader can't? This argument is so roundabout that is no point. Comic limitations are higher than normal limitations for humans. What is so hard about that to understand?

Originally posted by marvelprince
Nice post, but so very flawed. I can get a job at Marvel right now and have Antman sting Galactus on the toe and have Galactus say that he's powerless against ants.

Why would they let you do that?

Youre comparing ants vs galactus to cap vs spidey....thats an accurate comparison.

Dont blow things out of proportion mate.

Originally posted by marvelprince
Conversely is there anything that Doom has built that the Leader can't? This argument is so roundabout that is no point. Comic limitations are higher than normal limitations for humans. What is so hard about that to understand?

Exactly. You love to miss the point. You know that the Leader has superhuman intelligence but Dr Doom can match him or even do better.

Therefore this proves non humans can have superhuman qualities.

Ok tell you what Marvelprince just anwser the question.

Does Dr Doom have the same if not more intelligence than the leader.

Yes or No?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why would they let you do that?

Youre comparing ants vs galactus to cap vs spidey....thats an accurate comparison.

Dont blow things out of proportion mate.

Yes I am. Galactus outclasses ants in every physical aspect doesn't he. But if I write about ants beating him I guess thats fact