Originally posted by Sparkz
True but the fact is Spidey's style is still very unpredictable so Cap shouldnt be able to anticipate every move Spidey makes, some but not every.
Perhaps. But apparently, it is enough.
Originally posted by Arahan
in CW 3:it looked for me more like a dodge movement of spidey
than a hit of CA.
Looked like an uppercut, with Spidey falling back to me....
Originally posted by Dinalfos
And still, this isn't like predicting the actions of a normal human. Yes, you may be able to predict or even direct some of Spidey's movement, but Spidey on his turn has all his speed and powers at his disposal to counteract. His flipkick or whatever should be a hell of a lot faster than that of a normal human anyway, so I'm not sure Captain has enough time to do anything with it. Also because Spiderman, especially after his upgrade, should have plenty of time to correct himself before Captain can respond accordingly.
Again, perhaps. But apparently it is enough for Cap to show himself superior to pete in close combat.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
And still, this isn't like predicting the actions of a normal human. Yes, you may be able to predict or even direct some of Spidey's movement, but Spidey on his turn has all his speed and powers at his disposal to counteract. His flipkick or whatever should be a hell of a lot faster than that of a normal human anyway, so I'm not sure Captain has enough time to do anything with it. Also because Spiderman, especially after his upgrade, should have plenty of time to correct himself before Captain can respond accordingly.
Why do people always seem to say what I did alot better.
Originally posted by Soljer
Not against Iron Spidey, for sure. Hence, I have been arguing that Iron-Spidey, post-upgrades wins 7/10.However, Cap versus Classic Spidey? I could see that being 5/10 or even 6/10 for Cap.
I'd give you 5/10 but not 6.
Although the Iron suit always seems to be a non factor in fights...except in this cae lol.
Originally posted by Soljer
Not against Iron Spidey, for sure. Hence, I have been arguing that Iron-Spidey, post-upgrades wins 7/10.However, Cap versus Classic Spidey? I could see that being 5/10 or even 6/10 for Cap.
Just curious, what is your definition of "classic" in this case? Are you referring to 1960s Spider-Man? Or Spidey right before his physical upgrades? Without the continous ailment of course.
Originally posted by Sparkz
I'd give you 5/10 but not 6.Although the Iron suit always seems to be a non factor in fights...except in this cae lol.
Well, at least I have SOMEONE offering me a 5/10 against classic spidey 😄.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Without PIS, CIS and Jobbing, I don't see captain taking this more than once out of ten at most.
*sigh* This is the ONLY argument in the face of obvious scans, proof. Read my posts on the previous page (or at the beginning of this one, I cannot recall), for information on that. Working for Marvel, things becoming cannon, marvel's intent. All that stuff.
EDIT: Me referring to Classic Spidey, to me, means before 'the other' arc. And before the Iron suit.
Originally posted by Soljer
Well, at least I have SOMEONE offering me a 5/10 against classic spidey 😄.*sigh* This is the ONLY argument in the face of obvious scans, proof. Read my posts on the previous page (or at the beginning of this one, I cannot recall), for information on that. Working for Marvel, things becoming cannon, marvel's intent. All that stuff.
Yes, but I'm going strictly by reason. I know what happened in the comics, but some of it simply doesn't make sense. I have no problem with Captain beating Spidey in a comic book, because it's just that, a comic book. But when fights are supposed to be PISless, you're gonna have to ignore comic book feats that can be considered illogical(I.e PISsy or CISsy). These aren't comic book standards.
Originally posted by Soljer
Well, at least I have SOMEONE offering me a 5/10 against classic spidey 😄.*sigh* This is the ONLY argument in the face of obvious scans, proof. Read my posts on the previous page (or at the beginning of this one, I cannot recall), for information on that. Working for Marvel, things becoming cannon, marvel's intent. All that stuff.
EDIT: Me referring to Classic Spidey, to me, means before 'the other' arc. And before the Iron suit.
I'm tempted to say 4/10 to Spidey but I won't break the peace lol
Originally posted by Soljer
EDIT: Me referring to Classic Spidey, to me, means before 'the other' arc. And before the Iron suit.
So, when still had 15 tons of strength, still superhumanly fast, without stingers (and other new abilities), still everything he is now, just SLIGHTLY reduced?
Edit: I offer Captain 4-4.5/10 against Classic Spidey.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yes, but I'm going strictly by reason. I know what happened in the comics, but some of it simply doesn't make sense. I have no problem with Captain beating Spidey in a comic book, because it's just that, a comic book. But when fights are supposed to be PISless, you're gonna have to ignore comic book feats that can be considered illogical(I.e PISsy or CISsy). These aren't comic book standards.
My point is, though (and has been) that it ISN'T PIS.
Plain and simple, Captain America doesn't have IMMEDIATE super-powers. Yes, he does things that are FAR out of reach for a peak human (show me someone ripping up a steel tractor, effortlessly tossing something that is four times their body weight, or running sixty miles an hour....do that, and I say "Strap a shield to that mother****er! He's Captain god-damn america!" 😛)
However, he does have at least ONE obvious superhuman quality; skill. He is so incredibly skilled, that he can rival superior foes. I think that is apparent from the scans, from their previous meetings, and I believe that is obvious as marvel's intent. Spidey has class 15-20 strength. He is incredibly fast. He is agile. He has webshooters. He has spider-sense. But all of this CAN be countered by enough skill, it is apparent that this is marvel's message. They wrote it. They have 'declared' it. It's their universe, after all, and their word is law. So to speak.
And in the Marvel universe, there are few that can match Cap for his skill. Thus, going by the evidence presented, I don't think Cap 3/10 against Iron-Spidey and 5/10 against classic is too unreasonable.
EDIT: As far as you offering as much as 4.5/10 against classic spidey, and Sparkz saying 4/10, I don't think I will really sit here and argue over a single win (or half a win) out of ten. I think that .5-1 win can be considered a discrepancy of opinion, not of fact. Regardless, I appreciate your understanding, and I think that 4.5/10 against Classic Spidey is reasonable, but, likewise, I think 5/10 is as well, and I think 5/10 is just as likely.
Originally posted by Soljer
My point is, though (and has been) that it ISN'T PIS.Plain and simple, Captain America doesn't have IMMEDIATE super-powers. Yes, he does things that are FAR out of reach for a peak human (show me someone ripping up a steel tractor, effortlessly tossing something that is four times their body weight, or running sixty miles an hour....do that, and I say "Strap a shield to that mother****er! He's Captain god-damn america!" 😛)
However, he does have at least ONE obvious superhuman quality; skill. He is so incredibly skilled, that he can rival superior foes. I think that is apparent from the scans, from their previous meetings, and I believe that is obvious as marvel's intent. Spidey has class 15-20 strength. He is incredibly fast. He is agile. He has webshooters. He has spider-sense. But all of this CAN be countered by enough skill, it is apparent that this is marvel's message. They wrote it. They have 'declared' it. It's their universe, after all, and their word is law. So to speak.
And in the Marvel universe, there are few that can match Cap for his skill. Thus, going by the evidence presented, I don't think Cap 3/10 against Iron-Spidey and 5/10 against classic is too unreasonable.
EDIT: As far as you offering as much as 4.5/10 against classic spidey, and Sparkz saying 4/10, I don't think I will really sit here and argue over a single win (or half a win) out of ten. I think that .5-1 win can be considered a discrepancy of opinion, not of fact. Regardless, I appreciate your understanding, and I think that 4.5/10 against Classic Spidey is reasonable, but, likewise, I think 5/10 is as well, and I think 5/10 is just as likely.
I agree that it is reasonable it was nice doing business with you.
Originally posted by Soljer
My point is, though (and has been) that it ISN'T PIS.Plain and simple, Captain America doesn't have IMMEDIATE super-powers. Yes, he does things that are FAR out of reach for a peak human (show me someone ripping up a steel tractor, effortlessly tossing something that is four times their body weight, or running sixty miles an hour....do that, and I say "Strap a shield to that mother****er! He's Captain god-damn america!" 😛)
However, he does have at least ONE obvious superhuman quality; skill. He is so incredibly skilled, that he can rival superior foes. I think that is apparent from the scans, from their previous meetings, and I believe that is obvious as marvel's intent. Spidey has class 15-20 strength. He is incredibly fast. He is agile. He has webshooters. He has spider-sense. But all of this CAN be countered by enough skill, it is apparent that this is marvel's message. They wrote it. They have 'declared' it. It's their universe, after all, and their word is law. So to speak.
And in the Marvel universe, there are few that can match Cap for his skill. Thus, going by the evidence presented, I don't think Cap 3/10 against Iron-Spidey and 5/10 against classic is too unreasonable.
EDIT: As far as you offering as much as 4.5/10 against classic spidey, and Sparkz saying 4/10, I don't think I will really sit here and argue over a single win (or half a win) out of ten. I think that .5-1 win can be considered a discrepancy of opinion, not of fact. Regardless, I appreciate your understanding, and I think that 4.5/10 against Classic Spidey is reasonable, but, likewise, I think 5/10 is as well, and I think 5/10 is just as likely.
- suddenly CA was as fast as an upgraded Spider-Man ? Three times in a row ?
- Spider-Man fights like a chump ??
- Even classic Spider-Man would dodge multiple bullets, laser beams and or Dock Ock tentacles like they were nothing, but here he manages to get hit by CA ???
- And where was his spider sense ? You can believe me when I say he can dodge CA's attacks with his eyes closed - just following his instinct.
- Where was his super durability ? I know CA punches hard, but come on, an upgraded Spider-Man wearing a special costume should have no problem taking CA's hits. He took hits from Morlun who is like hundred times stronger, and kept coming.
- He wasn't fighting CA, he was almost worshipping him. He always holds back, like it or not.
But still, even if he didn't do that well, he made CA bleed and took away his shield. Do you really think that the fight would have been easy for CA if it wasn't interrupted ?
Spider-Man would have kicked his ass all over the place.
Originally posted by who?-kid
You make some good points. But the fight still was crap, because- suddenly CA was as fast as an upgraded Spider-Man ? Three times in a row ?
Captain America doesn't need to be as fast as an upgraded Spiderman. He knows spider-mans style. He knows how Spiderman will likely dodge. He can put his fist there beforehand, and let Spiderman's superior speed carry him into it.
Originally posted by who?-kid
- Even classic Spider-Man would dodge multiple bullets, laser beams and or Dock Ock tentacles like they were nothing, but here he manages to get hit by CA ???- And where was his spider sense ? You can believe me when I say he can dodge CA's attacks with his eyes closed - just following his instinct.
Spiderman dodges bullets, lasers, and Doc ock's tentacles the same way Cap does. As I explained, superior speed doesn't mean everything. Cap has plenty of skill. Enough to even compensate for Spiderman's spider-sense. It isn't infallible.
Originally posted by who?-kid
- Where was his super durability ? I know CA punches hard, but come on, an upgraded Spider-Man wearing a special costume should have no problem taking CA's hits. He took hits from Morlun who is like hundred times stronger, and kept coming.
As far as durability - Spiderman wasn't numb because he was hurting, he was numb because Cap was using precise nerve cluster strikes. Strikes that have even managed to affect the HULK, as Cap once pointed out - nerve clusters are nerve clusters. It doesn't matter your durability.
Originally posted by who?-kid
But still, even if he didn't do that well, he made CA bleed and took away his shield. Do you really think that the fight would have been easy for CA if it wasn't interrupted ?
Anyway, Cap managed to take it to Spiderman three times in a row, and DONATES his shield to do so. Then Spiderman gives him a cut that looks kind of like Cap made a slip-up shaving. No, it wouldn't have been an easy fight from there. AND, as I've repeated, I only give Cap 3/10 against Iron Spidey. It would be a hard fight, but it isn't like Cap is ENTIRELY outclassed.
Originally posted by Soljer
My point is, though (and has been) that it ISN'T PIS.Plain and simple, Captain America doesn't have IMMEDIATE super-powers. Yes, he does things that are FAR out of reach for a peak human (show me someone ripping up a steel tractor, effortlessly tossing something that is four times their body weight, or running sixty miles an hour....do that, and I say "Strap a shield to that mother****er! He's Captain god-damn america!" 😛)
However, he does have at least ONE obvious superhuman quality; skill. He is so incredibly skilled, that he can rival superior foes. I think that is apparent from the scans, from their previous meetings, and I believe that is obvious as marvel's intent. Spidey has class 15-20 strength. He is incredibly fast. He is agile. He has webshooters. He has spider-sense. But all of this CAN be countered by enough skill, it is apparent that this is marvel's message. They wrote it. They have 'declared' it. It's their universe, after all, and their word is law. So to speak.
And in the Marvel universe, there are few that can match Cap for his skill. Thus, going by the evidence presented, I don't think Cap 3/10 against Iron-Spidey and 5/10 against classic is too unreasonable.
EDIT:
I understand all that. I'm not saying Cap isn't skilled or anything. And yes, in the Marvel universe he can hang with the likes of Spiderman for a while. That doesn't mean it SHOULD happen. You can't have vastly superhuman (combat)skills without having superhuman physical abilities to support them. He may be a great strategic thinker, but if you don't have the physique to correspond with it, you'll eventually be facing your own limitations. Or at least you should be. Now, Cap may have enhanced physical ablilities, but this is ultimately nullified by Spiderman's powers.
Let's say that Spiderman perfoms a little speed blitzing on captain America, complete with lots of jumping around, quick punches, web shooting(all the while supported by his spider sense)....Now how can Captain America use his skills if he can barely see him move? Let's suppose for a minute that he(cap) has a slight supernatural sense of timing and direction, how is he going to beat someone who has all that and other supernatural abilities to compensate for his lack of "skills"? I know Marvel said he can, but does it make sense?