Originally posted by marvelprince
Yes I am. Galactus outclasses ants in every physical aspect doesn't he. But if I write about ants beating him I guess thats fact
Marvelprince the main point of that post is that you admitted to blowing things out of proportion. Nothing like that has ever happened in the History of the Marvel Universe until it does stop speculating.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Exactly. You love to miss the point. You know that the Leader has superhuman intelligence but Dr Doom can match him or even do better.Therefore this proves non humans can have superhuman qualities.
No it doesn't cause no one knows the scope of the Leaders intelligence. You can't make an accurate assessment of whose smarter cause we have yet to see both of them pushed to the max. Intelligence is always a tricky subject anyway as there appears to be no limits to the human mind.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Marvelprince the main point of that post is that you admitted to blowing things out of proportion. Nothing like that has ever happened in the History of the Marvel Universe until it does stop speculating.
This is my point. Just because something is printed doesn't mean its set in stone. Besides you can't just look at the instances that support only your side anyway
Originally posted by marvelprince
Nice post, but so very flawed. I can get a job at Marvel right now and have Antman sting Galactus on the toe and have Galactus say that he's powerless against ants. I would hope that you wouldn't take it as fact that Antman can beat Galactus. Thats the beauty of these forums. All PIS, CIS etc are removed. If you want to go by feats then I can think of 2 instances off the top of my head when Cap remarks and how he can never hope to match Spider-Man's speed. We can look at Civil War 3 at how easily Cap was being put down put down. We also need to look at the context. The loss to Cap was meant to be emotional and show a turning point. It was like a fight between right and wrong and pointed out that he was on the wrong side. Anyway, if you are gonna completely ignore both characters abilites and just go with Cap beat him so there then I don't think this forum is the place for you
First thing; don't spread innaccuacies. Cap was not easily put down in CW 3. He was hit once by his shield, and scored one hit on Pete. I really don't see a clear winner there. Don't spout ignorance, it may influence some of the readers.
To the point, however:
*sighs* Arguing with black and white, mate. I don't care if you attempt to compare apples to oranges, the fact is, Cap has still shown to be Spidey's superior in hand to hand combat. Plain. Simple.
If Galactus suddenly developed a weakness to ants, and we saw him be fought off by an ant planet, and then again ran off by ants on planet earth, and THEN stung by ant man...then...well...Galactus' character gets an integral change, and becomes weak to ants. If marvel writes it repeatedly, it's kinda fact. If Galan was repeatedly shown to be bested by Ants, and then a post came up on the forum "Galactus vs. Ants" and your ENTIRE argument rested on nothing more than "MARVEL'S WRONG!" Then I really don't think this is the place for you.
This isn't a case of PIS, this is a case of confused comic book readers.
Spider-man vs. Firelord was ridiculous because Firelord didn't use one of the HUNDREDS of abilities he had at his disposal. On the other hand, Spider-man in THIS case, tried using his spider-speed and strength, and it was countered by the sheer skill advantage of Captain America. He tried using his webshooters, and it was dodged. He, finally, tried using his Iron-Spidey suit, and it worked. He doesn't really have many other powers at his disposal. He fought to his character's ability.
Some comic readers are just confused as to how Cap could best him like this. And, believe me, the answer isn't "because I say so, so there;" rather, the answer is "because Marvel says so, so there."
Marvel has, obviously, pointed out that Captain America's skill outclasses Petes speed and strength. What would have made this more clear to you? Would you have liked another inner-dialogue of spider-mans that said "Wow, his skill is too much for me, even my spider strength and speed can't match it," because...well...that's pretty damned near what he said.
Originally posted by marvelprince
No it doesn't cause no one knows the scope of the Leaders intelligence. You can't make an accurate assessment of whose smarter cause we have yet to see both of them pushed to the max. Intelligence is always a tricky subject anyway as there appears to be no limits to the human mind.
Ok so what your telling me is that when both Dr Doom and the Leader are trying to kill people and take over the world they are not pushing their intelligence to their max? Yes or No;
If there are no limits to the human mind why do some people have different levels of intellignce. Beacuse in the real world and in the MU there are limits and as you said there appears to be no limits thats just theory.
Originally posted by Soljer
First thing; don't spread innaccuacies. Cap was not easily put down in CW 3. He was hit once by his shield, and scored one hit on Pete. I really don't see a clear winner there. Don't spout ignorance, it may influence some of the readers.To the point, however:
*sighs* Arguing with black and white, mate. I don't care if you attempt to compare apples to oranges, the fact is, Cap has still shown to be Spidey's superior in hand to hand combat. Plain. Simple.If Galactus suddenly developed a weakness to ants, and we saw him be fought off by an ant planet, and then again ran off by ants on planet earth, and THEN stung by ant man...then...well...Galactus' character gets an integral change, and becomes weak to ants. If marvel writes it repeatedly, it's kinda fact. If Galan was repeatedly shown to be bested by Ants, and then a post came up on the forum "Galactus vs. Ants" and your ENTIRE argument rested on nothing more than "MARVEL'S WRONG!" Then I really don't think this is the place for you.
This isn't a case of PIS, this is a case of confused comic book readers.
Spider-man vs. Firelord was ridiculous because Firelord didn't use one of the HUNDREDS of abilities he had at his disposal. On the other hand, Spider-man in THIS case, tried using his spider-speed and strength, and it was countered by the sheer skill advantage of Captain America. He tried using his webshooters, and it was dodged. He, finally, tried using his Iron-Spidey suit, and it worked. He doesn't really have many other powers at his disposal. He fought to his character's ability.
Some comic readers are just confused as to how Cap could best him like this. And, believe me, the answer isn't "because I say so, so there;" rather, the answer is "because Marvel says so, so there."
Marvel has, obviously, pointed out that Captain America's skill outclasses Petes speed and strength. What would have made this more clear to you? Would you have liked another inner-dialogue of spider-mans that said "Wow, his skill is too much for me, even my spider strength and speed can't match it," because...well...that's pretty damned near what he said.
Nice post. Long but good posts. Point is your still just ignoring whatever doesn't go with your agrument. Spider-Man used all his abilites and couldn't win? Wtf? Where did he attempt a speed-blitz? His strength? If he did Cap would have broken his arm when he attemtped to block. There was not even any mention of the spider-sense. Yeah, I see how thats definitive. Despite all of that though Spider-Man was still standing and Cap was without his shield so despite all of the attacks he landed it really makes you wonder who had the upper hand on who. In Civil War 3 Spider-Man caught Cap with his own shield and then blocked one of Cap's attacks. Cap got one punch on Spider-Man. Anyway, I enjoyed your replies, its nice to get sensible debates going on around here, but I'm out for now. Gotta a plane to catch
Originally posted by Alfheim
No no no no Nimrod was a highly advanced inteligent robot. In any case if he wasnt machine man was.Well ok its not clear cut, I went to the marvel database project and it says that cap could benchpress at least 1100 and they showed a pic. They then said he has been know to lift near the 5+ range and gave examples of feats that are 5+. Ok not clear cut but its debatable
Marvel Database project
<for examples like buckling thick steel doors in Captain America Medusa Effect or tearing steel off of a tractor, in Cap v1 #339. To even in Dead Man Running #2 he pulled a supply truck through the Desert to bring food too unfortunate children.>Hmm that sounds like more 1-5 tons rather than 5+ really.
I don't argue that Cap can bench press 1,100 lbs. That sounds about right. Kicking down steel doors? Aunt May does that in her sleep. Take that as you will, but kicking down steel doors has become the new dodging bullets.
And he pulled a truck? I can pull a truck. They have wheels.
I'll even give Cap the benefit of the doubt and say he can lift, at the most, 1,500 lbs.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Metalmanx! Didnt Marvelprince just say that its not always working read the thread again. Am i wrong?
I am sorry, but you are wrong. You must've misunderstood what Marvelprince was saying. He said you are in fact wrong about your previous assumption.
Marvelprince and I are in agreement over the Spider-sense.
Originally posted by Soljer
**** me, I said I'd stop arguing...Look, it comes down to this; no matter how much you think you know about a character, unless you are getting a paycheck that says "marvel" on it, all you can do is speculate. I mean, you can argue with me till the ****ing cows come home, but you can't even pretend to argue with Marvel. They put it in plain black and white. Spider-man himself said it. If it wasn't for the new Iron-Spider upgrades, Cap would have taken him, likely, without Spider-man ever landing a punch.
Spider-man's stronger? Yeah. Faster? Yeah. More Agile? Yeah. Blah blah blah. Captain America, by comic book standards, has more than enough skill to make up for all of these disadvantages. I don't think ANYONE is arguing that Cap's strength could compete with Peter's. Nor his speed. But it is his skill. His super-human, preternatural skill that allows him to match foes that are so VASTLY his physical superior. Like Spider-man.
I said earlier that I wasn't planning on arguing anymore, and I still really am not. I just wanted to point out, that...you aren't arguing with me. You're arguing with Marvel's black and white. Cap would have taken Spider-man pre-upgrades 6/10. That is plain admission by Spider-man. Steve KNOWS spider-man, he knows how he'll attack, he knows where and how he'll dodge. He expects it all already.
He DIDN'T expect to be attacked by a metallic third arm, though. Hence, he couldn't dodge it. Why not? It was going at spider-man like speeds. Steve can't dodge something like that unless he EXPECTS it before hand. The way he'll expect every move in regular-Spider-man's repetoire.
Versus current Spidey, though? Cap loses 7/10.
*sigh* And I very much hope that I'm done.
Don't get me wrong, dude. I respect the way you're standing up for Cap. And I agree, for the most part. However, there's something I'm having trouble with.
How exactly can Cap study Spidey's moves and learn them? Spidey's fighting style is all based on instinct (for the most part, at least). How do you predict and counter instinct? Odds are, Spidey has just much chance to swing with his left fist as with his right fist. His fighting style isn't predictable, thus shouldn't be able to be expected.
But hey, that's just me.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Spider-Man used all his abilites and couldn't win? Wtf? Where did he attempt a speed-blitz?
He couldn't attempt one, he was overwhelmed by Captain America's offensive, and couldn't turn the tide well enough.
Originally posted by marvelprince
His strength?
As far as his strength, he could give way to a block the same way you can roll with a punch. You don't have to block with iron force, as long as you put yourself out of the way of danger.
Originally posted by marvelprince
There was not even any mention of the spider-sense.
His spider sense doesn't need to be mentioned, it's assumed to be there. Fact is, it isn't infallible. If it were, Spider-man would be incapable of being hit by anyone. Considering that there have been plenty of unskilled individuals that could get past it, I don't see how it's such a stretch that someone as skillful and advanced as Steve couldn't get past it once or twice.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Despite all of that though Spider-Man was still standing and Cap was without his shield so despite all of the attacks he landed it really makes you wonder who had the upper hand on who.
This, I think, is hilarious. Cap GAVE up his shield so he could commence his offensive. Spider-man says that himself. Cap set him up. Afterwards, yes, Spidey was standing, but....read the scans! He was NUMB from the waist down, due to pressure point hits. NUMB! Who do you THINK had the clear upper hand? Past that, Spidey never even landed a PUNCH on Steve, and couldn't until he brought out his Iron-spidey arms.
Originally posted by marvelprince
In Civil War 3 Spider-Man caught Cap with his own shield and then blocked one of Cap's attacks. Cap got one punch on Spider-Man.
*nods* Catching cap's shield is no huge feat. The Hulk has done it, Beast has done it, mr Hyde has done it. Spidey doing it is no big deal. However, the point still remains, that in THAT instance, Cap scored a hit on Spider-man (At the very least, proving AGAIN that it's possible) knocking him back into the air. There is no definitive evidence from that SMALL snippet of a fight, but it at LEAST proves that Cap isn't incredibly outclassed.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Anyway, I enjoyed your replies, its nice to get sensible debates going on around here, but I'm out for now. Gotta a plane to catch
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Don't get me wrong, dude. I respect the way you're standing up for Cap. And I agree, for the most part. However, there's something I'm having trouble with.How exactly can Cap study Spidey's moves and learn them? Spidey's fighting style is all based on instinct (for the most part, at least). How do you predict and counter instinct? Odds are, Spidey has just much chance to swing with his left fist as with his right fist. His fighting style isn't predictable, thus shouldn't be able to be expected.
But hey, that's just me.
Thats true there is only so much you can expect...because there is no guarntee that Peter will do what you think he will do he could decide to punch with his right instead of his left or punch instead of kick. It seems strange to me that Cap can predict Spidey's moves, but how can you predict someone who basicly jumps around and punches all the time, its not even a fighting style you can learn Spidey just goes on instinct with his Spider-Sense to guide him. But I suppose if Cap knows his basic moves then he can assume what Pete is going to do but he can't always be right that is statisticly impossible. But I would say Cap was good enough (as shown) to take advantage of that and hit Pete in a pressure point, but more often than not I would say Spidey's stats overpower Caps skill when not holding back.
Also how was Spidey using the best of his abilities he could have done alot more with his webbing than shoot 5 or 6 strands in one place he could have fired a web big enough to cover the entire street, or could have fired multiple webs all over the place. He also didnt use his stingers, he didn't use full strength, maybe full speed but then again if he wasnt using full strength he wouldnt be going as fastr as he could now would he.
Originally posted by Sparkz
Thats true there is only so much you can expect...because there is no guarntee that Peter will do what you think he will do he could decide to punch with his right instead of his left or punch instead of kick. It seems strange to me that Cap can predict Spidey's moves, but how can you predict someone who basicly jumps around and punches all the time, its not even a fighting style you can learn Spidey just goes on instinct with his Spider-Sense to guide him.Also how was Spidey using the best of his abilities he could have done alot more with his webbing than shoot 5 or 6 strands in one place he could have fired a web big enough to cover the entire street, or could have fired multiple webs all over the place. He also didnt use his stingers, he didn't use full strength, maybe full speed but then again if he wasnt using full strength he wouldnt be going as fastr as he could now would he.
✅
Yeah, I have to agree, there should be no way for Capt to predict spideys actions, the guy goes off instinks and what the situation calls for. He has no set fighting style.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Don't get me wrong, dude. I respect the way you're standing up for Cap. And I agree, for the most part. However, there's something I'm having trouble with.How exactly can Cap study Spidey's moves and learn them? Spidey's fighting style is all based on instinct (for the most part, at least). How do you predict and counter instinct? Odds are, Spidey has just much chance to swing with his left fist as with his right fist. His fighting style isn't predictable, thus shouldn't be able to be expected.
But hey, that's just me.
Well, honestly, ALL fighting styles are based, at least partially, on instinct. Even my own. I may be equally likely to follow up a jab with a double leg take-down, a cross, or a hook, but if you see me slightly drop by guard, you might expect a take-down and have to sprawl out. If I twixt my shoulders a it, you may expect me to follow with the cross, and if I begin dipping to the side, you may expect a hook. Following this, you will either try to put up an inside parry, an outside block, or a sprawl.
However, after a jab, those three attacks are likely follow-ups. If you KNOW I may go for a take-down, you'll have a MUCH easier time sprawling than if you think I am JUST a boxer.
Same with Cap. While Spidey's 'style' is based off of instinct, it is VERY likely that he still has tells. In fact, since Spidey has no real formal training, he probably telegraphs his moves quite a bit. When facing a VERY skillful foe, telegraphing your moves is death, even if you DO have you opponent outclassed in speed and skill.
Cap knows that Spider-man may try to dodge a Jab-cross with a simple backflip, so Cap does the Jab-Cross, and immediately begins a low, inside roundhouse to catch him.
Or maybe cap knows that Spider-man will often commit himself to certain punches in certain ways. He can use these commitments against him.
Do you see how it would even be possible for a very skillful fighter to make up for superior speed? If he KNOWS what may be/is coming?
EDIT: Since there were two replies WHILE I was replying, let me reiterate. NO style has set "Do this, then do this" rules. Everything is based off of instinct, and you HAVE to be unique, and versatile in a fight to have any hope. The thing is, I'm sure spider-man dodges in a certain fashion, or will attack in a certain fashion often. I'm sure he telegraphs his movements, because he is untrained. I'm sure Cap can capitilize (Heh, pun intended) on this. And, it is apparent that he DID.
Originally posted by Soljer
Well, honestly, ALL fighting styles are based, at least partially, on instinct. Even my own. I may be equally likely to follow up a jab with a double leg take-down, a cross, or a hook, but if you see me slightly drop by guard, you might expect a take-down and have to sprawl out. If I twixt my shoulders a it, you may expect me to follow with the cross, and if I begin dipping to the side, you may expect a hook. Following this, you will either try to put up an inside parry, an outside block, or a sprawl.However, after a jab, those three attacks are likely follow-ups. If you KNOW I may go for a take-down, you'll have a MUCH easier time sprawling than if you think I am JUST a boxer.
Same with Cap. While Spidey's 'style' is based off of instinct, it is VERY likely that he still has tells. In fact, since Spidey has no real formal training, he probably telegraphs his moves quite a bit. When facing a VERY skillful foe, telegraphing your moves is death, even if you DO have you opponent outclassed in speed and skill.
Cap knows that Spider-man may try to dodge a Jab-cross with a simple backflip, so Cap does the Jab-Cross, and immediately begins a low, inside roundhouse to catch him.
Or maybe cap knows that Spider-man will often commit himself to certain punches in certain ways. He can use these commitments against him.
Do you see how it would even be possible for a very skillful fighter to make up for superior speed? If he KNOWS what may be/is coming?
EDIT: Since there were two replies WHILE I was replying, let me reiterate. NO style has set "Do this, then do this" rules. Everything is based off of instinct, and you HAVE to be unique, and versatile in a fight to have any hope. The thing is, I'm sure spider-man dodges in a certain fashion, or will attack in a certain fashion often. I'm sure he telegraphs his movements, because he is untrained. I'm sure Cap can capitilize (Heh, pun intended) on this. And, it is apparent that he DID.
True but the fact is Spidey's style is still very unpredictable so Cap shouldnt be able to anticipate every move Spidey makes, some but not every.
*nods* Catching cap's shield is no huge feat. The Hulk has done it, Beast has done it, mr Hyde has done it. Spidey doing it is no big deal. However, the point still remains, that in THAT instance, Cap scored a hit on Spider-man (At the very least, proving AGAIN that it's possible) knocking him back into the air. There is no definitive evidence from that SMALL snippet of a fight, but it at LEAST proves that Cap isn't incredibly outclassed.
in CW 3:
it looked for me more like a dodge movement of spidey
than a hit of CA.
And still, this isn't like predicting the actions of a normal human. Yes, you may be able to predict or even direct some of Spidey's movement, but Spidey on his turn has all his speed and powers at his disposal to counteract. His flipkick or whatever should be a hell of a lot faster than that of a normal human anyway, so I'm not sure Captain has enough time to do anything with it. Also because Spiderman, especially after his upgrade, should have plenty of time to correct himself before Captain can respond accordingly.