Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Captian America is not 40x faster than a human, nor 15 times. He's slightly above an Olympic athlete I just showed you this, and you're going on hyperbole.I'm asking you if Spiderman vs Thor should happen, I read your detailed analysis.
Originally posted by Soljer
I've dreaded coming back to this thread for the longest time. *sigh*Anyways.
A BIG problem when we're talking about certain characters is the Handbook vs. Comic Book argument. In Captain America's bio, he is described as a peak human. In every way possible. As if he were a gold-medal winning olympic weightlifter, olympic sprinter, olympic gymnast, olympic swimmer, etc. Simultaneously. Cool!
But, a flaw in that argument....the BEST discus throw record for the olympics is about 243 feet. How far did Cap throw his shield, in order to catch up to the ballistic missile taking off? Not to even mention that Cap's shield would be several times the weight of a discus.
The BEST clean & jerk on record, that is, lifting a weight from the ground to over head, about 580 pounds. Cap tossed an 800+ pound woman without strain.
The FASTEST mile ran was about 3:43. Cap ran one in just over a minute flat.
The thickest skull in the world gets smashed through a brick wall? They're knocked out. Cap? Pissed.
Humans are in buildings that collapse every day. What happens? They get crushed, starve, or are rescued. What did cap do? Brace the falling debris, and eventually dig his way out.
A strong guy walks up to the front of a tractor, and grips it. What happens? He loses his grip. Or, at best, the tractor might inch forward or back. Cap? Rips the damned steel from the frame.
That olympic weight lifter is around, and a torpedo goes off. What does he do? Well..if he can even PERCEIVE the thing, he gets his arm torn off. Cap? Catches it, no problem.
The best boxer in the world has a laser fired at him. What happens? He has a ****ing hole in his chest! Cap? Rolls with it. Like it was an amateur boxer's right cross.
Look, I'm not even arguing Cap vs. Spidey anymore. I think I did an okay job of that already. I think that I presented a VERY good case for Cap to win thirty percent of the time against current spidey. I even convinced a couple people to support me. I really couldn't care less if this thread died and never resurfaced.
However, I would like to point out, that no matter what Bio's say, no matter what the handbooks say, Captain America is stronger than any weightlifter could dream of, faster than any sprinter could hope to be, more durable than the most experienced street fighter. Cap isn't peak human. He isn't the best a human could be. He IS Superhuman. Preternatural.
You want to define a character by handbooks? Fine. I don't read handbooks; I read comics. This isn't a handbooks versus Forum; it's a comics versus Forum. Read a comic, Captain America surpasses his bio's in every single one.
Also, look...if you detected any hostility in this post, forgive me. There is no offense meant to you, C-Master, or anyone else who disagrees with me. It just seems....I don't know, frustratingly like trying to convince someone, arguing (with what seems to me, well formed arguments...) and having them rebut with 'Nuh-uh!'
Also note, that I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just in general. Saying that Cap can't do what he's shown to be capable of OVER and OVER again, is like saying Namor is a 60-tonner. It's as innaccurate as saying that Captain America, Deadpool, Wolverine are all masters of every martial art on the planet.
punk
Originally posted by Soljer
I've dreaded coming back to this thread for the longest time. *sigh*Anyways.
A BIG problem when we're talking about certain characters is the Handbook vs. Comic Book argument. In Captain America's bio, he is described as a peak human. In every way possible. As if he were a gold-medal winning olympic weightlifter, olympic sprinter, olympic gymnast, olympic swimmer, etc. Simultaneously. Cool!
But, a flaw in that argument....the BEST discus throw record for the olympics is about 243 feet. How far did Cap throw his shield, in order to catch up to the ballistic missile taking off? Not to even mention that Cap's shield would be several times the weight of a discus.
The BEST clean & jerk on record, that is, lifting a weight from the ground to over head, about 580 pounds. Cap tossed an 800+ pound woman without strain.
The FASTEST mile ran was about 3:43. Cap ran one in just over a minute flat.
The thickest skull in the world gets smashed through a brick wall? They're knocked out. Cap? Pissed.
Humans are in buildings that collapse every day. What happens? They get crushed, starve, or are rescued. What did cap do? Brace the falling debris, and eventually dig his way out.
A strong guy walks up to the front of a tractor, and grips it. What happens? He loses his grip. Or, at best, the tractor might inch forward or back. Cap? Rips the damned steel from the frame.
That olympic weight lifter is around, and a torpedo goes off. What does he do? Well..if he can even PERCEIVE the thing, he gets his arm torn off. Cap? Catches it, no problem.
The best boxer in the world has a laser fired at him. What happens? He has a ****ing hole in his chest! Cap? Rolls with it. Like it was an amateur boxer's right cross.
Look, I'm not even arguing Cap vs. Spidey anymore. I think I did an okay job of that already. I think that I presented a VERY good case for Cap to win thirty percent of the time against current spidey. I even convinced a couple people to support me. I really couldn't care less if this thread died and never resurfaced.
However, I would like to point out, that no matter what Bio's say, no matter what the handbooks say, Captain America is stronger than any weightlifter could dream of, faster than any sprinter could hope to be, more durable than the most experienced street fighter. Cap isn't peak human. He isn't the best a human could be. He IS Superhuman. Preternatural.
You want to define a character by handbooks? Fine. I don't read handbooks; I read comics. This isn't a handbooks versus Forum; it's a comics versus Forum. Read a comic, Captain America surpasses his bio's in every single one.
Also, look...if you detected any hostility in this post, forgive me. There is no offense meant to you, C-Master, or anyone else who disagrees with me. It just seems....I don't know, frustratingly like trying to convince someone, arguing (with what seems to me, well formed arguments...) and having them rebut with 'Nuh-uh!'
Also note, that I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just in general. Saying that Cap can't do what he's shown to be capable of OVER and OVER again, is like saying Namor is a 60-tonner. It's as innaccurate as saying that Captain America, Deadpool, Wolverine are all masters of every martial art on the planet.
Nuh-uh!
Originally posted by King KAM
yeah considerind cap couldve killed him, but he didnt he captured him, then he cut him, then wolverine went berzserker and attacked captain america from behind, while he wasnt paying attention.If you read the whole comic book you will see that.Cap and him were tied in there one on one battle until cap got the upper-hand.
and if you had read the whole book you'd know that up to that point wolvie was infact holding back on steve.. AND when wolverine DID rail cap.. it wasn't from behind.. cap turns around and says no before wolvie pounded him.... he was already facing wolverine by the time the attack was launched... AND IF cap had tried to use that sword on wolverine... which he did... all it would (and did) accomplish would be to make wolvie go berseker and waste him.. hell cap couldn't do anything for very long anyhow. He tried..hell he keeps trying in the very next issue... and wolvie punks him, cyclops, AND hellion without much effort... cap lost AGAIN... face it.
"I think that I presented a VERY good case for Cap to win thirty percent of the time against current spidey."
If so then how come when taking into account the following:
Who is faster?
Spider-Man
Who is stronger?
Spider-Man
Who is more agile?
Spider-Man
Who is more durable?
Spider-Man
Who heals faster?
Spider-Man
Who has better reflexes?
Spider-Man
Who is precognitive?
Spider-Man
Who is more intelligent?
Spider-Man
Who has a long range attack that can immobilise their opponent?
Spider-Man
Who has an invisible stealth mode?
Spider-Man
Who has a fighting style based on said super-strength, -speed, -reflexes, -agility and precognition?
Spider-Man
No simple, straightforward answer is given to the following question:
Give me a plausible and probable means by which Captain America wins? What does he do?
😬
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"I think that I presented a VERY good case for Cap to win thirty percent of the time against current spidey."If so then how come when taking into account the following:
Who is faster?
Spider-Man
Who is stronger?
Spider-Man
Who is more agile?
Spider-Man
Who is more durable?
Spider-Man
Who heals faster?
Spider-Man
Who has better reflexes?
Spider-Man
Who is precognitive?
Spider-Man
Who is more intelligent?
Spider-Man
Who has a long range attack that can immobilise their opponent?
Spider-Man
Who has an invisible stealth mode?
Spider-Man
Who has a fighting style based on said super-strength, -speed, -reflexes, -agility and precognition?
Spider-ManNo simple, straightforward answer is given to the following question:
Give me a plausible and probable means by which Captain America wins? What does he do?😬
Wow, X, I can usually respect you, but I know good and well that you've been here for most of this thread, spamming that exact same post. Therefore, unless you are just skipping over others' posts, you MUST have read my posts as well. I've addressed this already. Time and time again.
To present the my entire case, it would likely take another twenty pages. To make it incredibly brief, however; Captain America can use his (great...great....incredibly...massively...gargantuan) skill advantage, and his knowledge of Spider-man to counteract many of spider-man's advantages.
We saw that Captain America damaging Pete is not only possible, but probably. In fact, with three punches, Captain America made half of Parker's body go numb. We also have seen time and time again that keeping up with Spider-man-level speed is well within Captain America's boundaries, considering that he has done it with Parker twice, and with many of Spider-man's rogue gallery as well.
This by no means clinches the win for Captain America, rather, as I've argued since the beginning, Steve would take Classic (Pre-other, pre-iron) Spiderman 5/10. However, with Parker's upgrades, Rogers drops a couple wins. Hence?
Spider-man. 7/10.
Originally posted by jinzinI'm sure a the worlds fastest runner can go extremely fast for a short burst in dire situations. I just remembered the old Spidey vs trio thread where people were saying spidey could run 100 miles an hour. I'm sure he could in a burst of energy, but not more than that... If that makes sense.
😕 no offense C but when was the last time you saw an olympian sprint at 60 miles per hour?
Originally posted by SoljerYour premise assumes a lot on Spider-Man's part, when I ask purely what does Captain America do to gain 3 wins? As per the forum rules, they fight to the best of their ability. 10 times out of 10 Spider-Man can simply web Captain America up and pummel him to death, he's in no way obligated to fight close range.
We saw that Captain America damaging Pete is not only possible, but probably. In fact, with three punches, Captain America made half of Parker's body go numb. We also have seen time and time again that keeping up with Spider-man-level speed is well within Captain America's boundaries, considering that he has done it with Parker twice, and with many of Spider-man's rogue gallery as well.This by no means clinches the win for Captain America, rather, as I've argued since the beginning, Steve would take Classic (Pre-other, pre-iron) Spiderman 5/10. However, with Parker's upgrades, Rogers drops a couple wins. Hence?
Spider-man. 7/10.
If you give a character 3 times out of 10 you should be able to justify what exactly the character does those three times, if all 10 times the opposing character is fighting to the best of their ability.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your premise assumes a lot on Spider-Man's part, when I ask purely what does Captain America do to gain 3 wins? As per the forum rules, they fight to the best of their ability. 10 times out of 10 Spider-Man can simply web Captain America up and pummel him to death, he's in no way obligated to fight close range.If you give a character 3 times out of 10 you should be able to justify what exactly the character does those three times, if all 10 times the opposing character is fighting to the best of their ability.
*scratches head* Alright, am I to understand that you believe that Cap COULD take wins in close range? Because, quite honestly, I've taken Spidey's webs into account.
Fact is, Captain America has shown to be Spider-man's superior in a hand to hand confrontation, and Captain America has shown the capability to dodge Spider-man's webs.
Spider-man wins 7/10 times. 5/10 due to laying down a blanket of webbing and pummelling Steve, 2/10 for winning up close. Cap wins 3/10 for clinching the fight, and taking Pete down in close quarters.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Again that presumes that they must be fighting up close. Like saying Captain America no shield vs Storm, he'll win a couple out of 10 if they fight up close even though she can fly and never needs to get near him at all.
Hmm, I have to agree with this, most of spideys villians have the strength or some means (claws other sharp objects) to cut themselves out of spideys webbing.
How would cap cut himself out if spidey blankets an entire area with web?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Again that presumes that they must be fighting up close. Like saying Captain America no shield vs Storm, he'll win a couple out of 10 if they fight up close even though she can fly and never needs to get near him at all.
Logical Fallacy. You can't compare someone who can sit in the heavens and reign down hell to someone who can jump/swing around, and shoot some webs.
The original poster never said that either combatant was fighting out of character - even if both are fighting to the best of their ability.
Staying COMPLETELY out of range, and trying to drown his opponent in webbing is out of character for pete.
Not to mention the fact that Steve can dodge it all day long. Also, he'll be throwing his steel-busting shield at Spider-man the entire time. At escape velocity.
I don't doubt that Spider-man could dodge it repeatedly. I DO doubt that he could dodge it indefinitely. Besides that, Cap's superior strategy and tactics could come into play, by using it as a diversion/luring Pete into a hand to hand battle. Where Cap is decisively superior.
As I said, Pete wins five out of ten due to webbing alone! The three Cap win's are simply for the likelihood of him closing the gap, and making it his fight.
Originally posted by SoljerStaying out of range of a superior, in skill at least, h2h fighter is out of character? Since when is Spider-Man a retard on the level of Forrest Gump?
The original poster never said that either combatant was fighting out of character - even if both are fighting to the best of their ability.Staying COMPLETELY out of range, and trying to drown his opponent in webbing is out of character for pete.
Originally posted by Soljer😐 Escape velocity is 11 km/s is 24,606 mph. Don't be foolish.
Also, he'll be throwing his steel-busting shield at Spider-man the entire time. At escape velocity.
Originally posted by Soljer
Not to mention the fact that Steve can dodge it all day long.
Originally posted by SoljerInteresting. Which one has better reflexes, speed, agility and precognition again?
I don't doubt that Spider-man could dodge it repeatedly. I DO doubt that he could dodge it indefinitely.
Originally posted by Soljer😐 It's a shield not a grappling hook.
Besides that, Cap's superior strategy and tactics could come into play, by using it as a diversion/luring Pete into a hand to hand battle. Where Cap is decisively superior.
Originally posted by SoljerIt is not however a likelihood. The justification of those three wins is that for reasons unknown they fight close range, when Spider-Man has no reason or obligation to do so. E.g. Shadowcat vs Captain America no shield he wins 10/10 because she solidifies and fights him h2h.
As I said, Pete wins five out of ten due to webbing alone! The three Cap win's are simply for the likelihood of him closing the gap, and making it his fight.
Staying out of range of a superior, in skill at least, h2h fighter is out of character? Since when is Spider-Man a retard on the level of Forrest Gump?
😐 Escape velocity is 11 km/s is 24,606 mph. Don't be foolish.
Interesting. Which one has better reflexes, speed, agility and precognition again?
😐 It's a shield not a grappling hook.
It is not however a likelihood. The justification of those three wins is that for reasons unknown they fight close range, when Spider-Man has no reason or obligation to do so. E.g. Shadowcat vs Captain America no shield he wins 10/10 because she solidifies and fights him h2h.
Captain America CANNOT force Kitty to materialize. He CANNOT force Storm to land. He CAN draw the distance between him and Parker.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It is not however a likelihood. The justification of those three wins is that for reasons unknown they fight close range, when Spider-Man has no reason or obligation to do so. E.g. Shadowcat vs Captain America no shield he wins 10/10 because she solidifies and fights him h2h.
The fight ends up in close combat because there isn't a damn thing Peter can do to stop Captain America from closing the gap and forcing Peter into melee combat? At least not 10/10 anyway. 😛
Originally posted by SoljerWhich would assume fighting close range Spider-Man instantly loses.
Spider-man almost never stays out of range of superior hand to hand fighters. Look at all the time he's had trouble with incredibly skilled, but otherwise mostly normal Hero's. Would it be the most intelligent thing to do? Certainly. Is it something Spider-man would do? Certainly. Is it something Spider-man would IMMEDIATELY do? Not often.
Originally posted by SoljerYou've cited the shield at ballistic missile thing twice... 😬
The thing about escape velocity was hyperbole. Don't take it literally, please. I'm a fan of both of these characters - I am a fanboy of neither.
Originally posted by SoljerWhile assuming a faster air travel speed, which I would agree to, the fact that Spider-Man is precognitive, is faster in both motion and reflexes and is more agile is not really coming into play. And the ability to expel masses of web, as well as a stealth mode.
*laughs* I also noticed the fact that I said Captain America could dodge Spider-man's webs, while Spider-man would eventually fall prey to Captain America's shield. Allow me to try some justification; while peter is FAR from a slouch with his projectile (plenty of feats to back that up), Cap's skill with his shield is unnatural. He can also throw it much faster than Spidey's webbing can shoot, and he can also create complex geometric richochet's like he was friggin bullseye.
Originally posted by SoljerWhich again does presuppose that Spider-Man fights like someone with Down's.
Who said anything about a grappling hook? I didn't say PULL pete into close quarters, I said lure.
Originally posted by SoljerSpider-Man with his superior manoeuvrability, precognition, wall crawling and webbing can't maintain a suitable distance?
The justification of the three wins is not for 'reasons unknown,' but rather, it is "Cap can close the gap between himself and Spider-man."
Originally posted by SoljerWhether he can *force* Spider-Man to come close to him is debatable.
Captain America CANNOT force Kitty to materialize. He CANNOT force Storm to land. He CAN draw the distance between him and Parker.
Steve's shield hitting the missile is cannon, it can't just be disregarded, especially since Captain America performing something like that with his shield is not out of character.
The escape velocity WAS hyperbole, because there is no way Captain America is going to be tossing his shield with that much speed over and over again, while worrying about an onslaught of webbing.
Also, I never said that current Spider-man instantly loses at close range. Out of the 5/10 that Spider-man doesn't just web and pound Steve, I would say he wins 2. Steve's three wins being the others out of that five.
Also, the only part I need quote is this:
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Whether he can *force* Spider-Man to come close to him is debatable.
Only because I find it hilarious that you point out the very thing that we are debating, IS in fact debatable!
It's like someone eating some a steak and going "This T-bone is edible!" 😆
No shot at you, I definitely agree that whether Cap can force/draw/find Spider-man in close quarters is debatable. Obviously, I think Steve is capable of it, and others (yourself included, I would assume) do not.