cap vs spider-man

Originally posted by Alfheim
I agree with you. What im trying to do is prove that there are things that Spidey does all the time which should not be possible but we accept because its in a comic.

Those arguing in favour of Cap say that he is superhuman and we give examples from comics, but everytime we get an example of him doing something superhuman all we get is "Bah" in reply.

I mean Namor has done stuff which should be beyond his ability but nobody gives a ****, everytime its Cap all we get is "Bah". We just cant win.

Fair enough, but if that standard goes for everyone, then the balance remains exactly the same.

Originally posted by Soljer
😆

Learn english and sentence structure. Then go back and read the thread, so you can see that you are bringing up points that have been argued about for twenty, thirty pages, and THEN come back.

After those few steps, we'll be able to discuss it.

First off, who has the time to add punctuation when needed no one here is writing an damn essay.Are you an english teacher? If you are so worried about english and sentance structure, read some other threads and start trash talking other people on there punctuation. Anyways if you don't catch the thread from the beginning its really not worth reading the 2 word answers that some people are making, like Cap wins or Spidey wins. When the topic start to flow off track reading all the pages to find out where it was when it was on topic is hardly worth it. My last post was simply giving a reason as to what Spidey does when he beats his oppenents. If it has been covered, oh well. you go ahead and read 30 posts to see what has and has not been covered. 😛 😆 💃

Originally posted by python99
First off, who has the time to add punctuation when needed no one here is writing an damn essay.Are you an english teacher? If you are so worried about english and sentance structure, read some other threads and start trash talking other people on there punctuation. Anyways if you don't catch the thread from the beginning its really not worth reading the 2 word answers that some people are making, like Cap wins or Spidey wins. When the topic start to flow off track reading all the pages to find out where it was when it was on topic is hardly worth it. My last post was simply giving a reason as to what Spidey does when he beats his oppenents. If it has been covered, oh well. you go ahead and read 30 posts to see what has and has not been covered. 😛 😆 💃

Friend? I've been here every single page. I know what's been covered. Something as simple as "Spider-man is fast" has been said time and time again. Through the ENTIRE thread, very good points have been made on both Spider-man's and Captain America's behalf.

Besides, thirty, fourty pages isn't that much, considering all the "Cap wins" or "Spidey Wins" there are. It really cuts down the number of ACTUAL posts you have to read 😛.

For the record, I'm no english teacher. I'm actually a Chemical Engineering/Computer Science Major, I always hated the subjectiveness of english and literature classes, all the way through taking world lit, and writing about lit as a freshman and sophmore at Uni.

However, I ALSO can recognize the need for proper grammar, spelling, and structure. It makes it easier to read, and makes you look (even if you aren't) more intelligent. From the debate point of view? (Which is all this forum is. Debate.) Proper structure is almost a requirement; it goes a long way.

Anyways, enough of that, now. 🙂.

Originally posted by Soljer
Friend? I've been here every single page. I know what's been covered. Something as simple as "Spider-man is fast" has been said time and time again. Through the ENTIRE thread, very good points have been made on both Spider-man's and Captain America's behalf.

Besides, thirty, fourty pages isn't that much, considering all the "Cap wins" or "Spidey Wins" there are. It really cuts down the number of ACTUAL posts you have to read 😛.

For the record, I'm no english teacher. I'm actually a Chemical Engineering/Computer Science Major, I always hated the subjectiveness of english and literature classes, all the way through taking world lit, and writing about lit as a freshman and sophmore at Uni.

However, I ALSO can recognize the need for proper grammar, spelling, and structure. It makes it easier to read, and makes you look (even if you aren't) more intelligent. From the debate point of view? (Which is all this forum is. Debate.) Proper structure is almost a requirement; it goes a long way.

Anyways, enough of that, now. 🙂.

Even the smartest people are the worst writers. However; I can see what you are saying. The thing I am tring to point out is the 2 word answers that are posted, make anyone want to skip the entire page.
Spidey is better.Why? Cap is better. Why? Those kind of posts over and over again are a waste of space. THen there are answers like Cap wins because he is better. Why is he better? When this is all I see its hard to tell what has been covered. Its easy for you since you have been here from the beggining, but for me I picked up from the late 30 some odd posts. In my honest opionion has better attributes and advantages that Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I agree with you. What im trying to do is prove that there are things that Spidey does all the time which should not be possible but we accept because its in a comic.

Those arguing in favour of Cap say that he is superhuman and we give examples from comics, but everytime we get an example of him doing something superhuman all we get is "Bah" in reply.

I mean Namor has done stuff which should be beyond his ability but nobody gives a ****, everytime its Cap all we get is "Bah". We just cant win.

Characters however may do things that they're underpowered to do or characters may be depowered in order to balance things. Sometimes these things are minor, other times they're ridiculous. Here is where the suspension of disbelief no longer always applies to the forums, as the forum is guided by rules that eliminate the more ridiculous examples.

Most Class 100 characters lift things in excess of a hundred tons. Most Class 90 characters lift things in excess of 90 tons. Namor lifts things in excess of 85 tons. All the way down to those who have the normal strength of a human who engages in regular exercise, lift more than they should. The Marvel strength Class system is relatively arbitrary both in terms of the size of the divisions and the division of characters into these classes.

It is relative. Someone who is Class 100 may lifts things that are hundreds of thousands of tons. Someone who is around Class 90 may often demonstrate strength in the thousands or tens of thousands. Someone who is peak human may show strength in the ton or two range. That doesn't give blanket approval to things as ridiculous as this:

Originally posted by Alfheim
Listen dont come in the thread at the end, without bothering to read the rest.

READ, the other posts before barging in here and chatting rubbish.

i'm going to say Cap, i think spider would take the chance to kill when its given to him, i think its for the wrong reasons but caps got this is my eyes

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Spider-Man can dodge lasers in comics because he has precognition that tells him from where the laser will be fired and he has the speed and reflexes to move out of the way. Psylocke has telekinesis because she's a tele-frickin-kinetic. Iceman exists as water because he does. It's not about whether things are possible in the real world. There is a suspension of disbelief which applies both to comics and to the forums.

Characters however may do things that they're underpowered to do or characters may be depowered in order to balance things. Sometimes these things are minor, other times they're ridiculous. Here is where the suspension of disbelief no longer always applies to the forums, as the forum is guided by rules that eliminate the more ridiculous examples.

Most Class 100 characters lift things in excess of a hundred tons. Most Class 90 characters lift things in excess of 90 tons. Namor lifts things in excess of 85 tons. All the way down to those who have the normal strength of a human who engages in regular exercise, lift more than they should. The Marvel strength Class system is relatively arbitrary both in terms of the size of the divisions and the division of characters into these classes.

It is relative. Someone who is Class 100 may lifts things that are hundreds of thousands of tons. Someone who is around Class 90 may often demonstrate strength in the thousands or tens of thousands. Someone who is peak human may show strength in the ton or two range. That doesn't give blanket approval to things as ridiculous as this:

Great argument. Beyond the initial "miracle exception" that we all agree to make for a super-powered being when reading a comic, there is an internal logic that is established by the writing that shouldn't just be ignored willy nilly. xmarksthesmpot is completely right in pointing to this particular panel as being a gross narrative inconsistency. Captain America should not be able to perform this feat unless he possesses considerable superhuman strength. Just like he should not be able to fight Spider-Man hand-to-hand and avoid getting killed. People that argue to the contrary--that Cap can take Spider-Man--argue solely on the basis of back issues. But, as xmarksthespot correctly points out, this type of argument can only be pressed so far. If a character like Cap is shown defeating or matching Spider-Man in some back issue, some outside explanation must be provided (like, Spider-Man had a bout of dysentery, or had an epileptic seizure...). Otherwise, it makes no sense. If there was a back issue showing the Hulk losing to Cap in an arm-wrestling match, wouldn't you call bullshit on that? The simple fact of the matter is that Spider-Man possesses something like 20 times Cap's strength. His punches are basically equivalent to small mortar fire. In addition, he possesses superhuman speed and reaction time. "Superhuman"--that means greater than Cap's. Plus, PLUS.....he's precognitive, which means he always knows where Cap's blows are going. Jesus Christ! It doesn't get more lopsided than this! Unless you dispute that Spider-Man actually has all these advantages, what is your explanation for Cap's ability to match him in a fight? He's got extra heart? He's super patriotic? Give me a break. If this fight was written by anyone who had an honest understanding of these two characters and depicted the scene with any kind of respect for their respective abilities/limitations, then Spider-Man wins is about 5 seconds by decapitating Captain America with a punch to the face.

Ditto

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

It is relative. Someone who is Class 100 may lifts things that are hundreds of thousands of tons. Someone who is around Class 90 may often demonstrate strength in the thousands or tens of thousands. Someone who is peak human may show strength in the ton or two range. That doesn't give blanket approval to things as ridiculous as this:

Well what about it, its ridiculous. That is as ridiculous as this

http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/2802/namorfeat220rx.gif

Do you know how much that thing is supposed to weigh? From 110,000 to 200,000 tons. You want to be realistic how much should Namor he be able to lift considering people who can lift around 80 tons cannot beat him but can cause him a bit of bother....150 ok it should be something like 200 tons. Ok 200 tons vs 110,000 to 200,000 basically that 1000 times more than he can lift.

People in the class 100 range lift stuff thousands of times more than they should be able to frequently.

Using your logic then Cap should be able to do this feat, because you do not have a problem with people who can lift a certain weight being able to lift a 1000 more times than they should be able to.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Someone who is Class 100 may lifts things that are hundreds of thousands of tons.

You cant have it both ways if class 100 people can lift things 1000 more than they should AND YOU DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, logic dictates that Cap can throw a shield and catch a missle.

Originally posted by Alfheim
People in the class 100 range lift stuff thousands of times more than they should be able to frequently.

Using your logic then Cap should be able to do this feat, because you do not have a problem with people who can lift a certain weight being able to lift a 1000 more times than they should be able to.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You cant have it both ways if class 100 people can lift things 1000 more than they should AND YOU DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, logic dictates that Cap can throw a shield and catch a missle.

Waste of time. Spider-Man wins the reasons having been detailed thoroughly.

Cap catches missles now?

That's about the last I can take of most people seroiusly now...

Spider-Man wins while breaking a slight sweat IMO. 😐

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Cap catches missles now?

That's about the last I can take of most people seroiusly now...

That was before he was frozen, he had superhuman strength

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Class 100 means lifts more than 100 tons. That is the extent of the definition Marvel gives. Writers and artists do not research in depth the weights of everything they make characters lift.

No no no no, you use your head you said peak humans can lift 1 to 2 tons. People who can lift 10 tons can sometimes lift 20. What is the logical progression, the logical progression is class 100 the limit being 200 or 250. I am being like you, I am being REALISTIC, but now you dont want to be realistic all of a sudden you want to follow the writers.

When you feel like it you will take the writers as a source when it contradicts what you want you change your goal posts.

The whole point is people in the marvel universe do things that they are not supposed to do all the time. I dont care if Spideys got pre-cog he cant move faster than something going at 185,000 miles per second, and even if he could what about Beast, Daredevil and all the others who dont have pre-cog they should all be dead.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Read above. 😐

Waste of time. Spider-Man wins the reasons having been detailed thoroughly.

Dont give me that waste of time crap, you cant even read your own posts. I have finished with you on the street levellers collide thread were you said Cap fighting Spidey was CIS and NOT PIS. You then said it was both and then after that you said it was more PIS than CIS....hopeless.

I showed you FOUR time and you kept denying it.

If you were caught red handed you would go colour blind, you take the mick.

Apolloknight said the most intelligent thing

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Everything you guys are talking about isn't making sense, why are we trying to compare real life physic's to comics. I know its cool to calculate how fast someone was moving, or how fasts a missile travels compared to cap's shield, but the real life logic being used in this Thread is well, flawed logic.

You cant compare comics to real life, You cant just say a man who is 40x faster, stronger and more agile then normals humans cant dodge something, have you ever met or seen a man in real life that can move 40x faster then me or your, no? So how do you know how fast they are?

So guess who decides on this, the writers, and if the writers want to have there characters dodge laser then I'm all for it.

Also, comparing comic lasers to real life lasers is also flawed, because you cant, if a laser is fired in real life it appears to be an instant line to the naked eye traveling at the speed light. In comics this never happens, know why? Because of the writers, its a fictional world where in comics and movies lasers can travel at bullet speed, so we, the reader/viewer can see it, and awe as our hero's evades them with ease, or in caps case, rolls with them. [b]Cap freaking rolls with lasers, if you want to use real life, a perfect symmetrical hole should be left in cap's body where the laser went through him instantly before he even knew what happened. But the writers not going to do that, because in his fictional world, laser don't have to travel that fast.

Laser are right up there with bullets, ninjas, vampires, and military special forces in comics. [/B]

Comic book phsyics ARE comparable, as long as you increase the standards proportionally. If Cap is faster than a real life peak human, then Spiderma is faster than a real life person who has reflexes x 40. There is no such person, ofcourse, but you get the point.

Cap was a normal guy before his serum... 800 lbs isn't superhuman strength, where is this coming from? I must be missing something then.

And yes comics are related tightly around the real world, an argument saying that Human Torch cannot make flames in space, because there is no oxygen in space is a very valid argument, because he hasn't. (Not to be confused with Firelord whose flames aren't actual fire.)

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Cap was a normal guy before his serum... 800 lbs isn't superhuman strength, where is this coming from?

hey wait a second are you talking about the pic were you see him actually catch a missile?

Yes.

Well wasnt that Bucky in the background in his old uniform?

Thats during the war...ok ive heard he has been ressurected but he looks different to how he looks in that pic.

If its during the war Cap has superhuman strength;

Originally posted by Alfheim
No no no no, you use your head you said peak humans can lift 1 to 2 tons. People who can lift 10 tons can sometimes lift 20. What is the logical progression, the logical progression is class 100 the limit being 200 or 250. I am being like you, I am being REALISTIC, but now you dont want to be realistic all of a sudden you want to follow the writers.

When you feel like it you will take the writers as a source when it contradicts what you want you change your goal posts.

The whole point is people in the marvel universe do things that they are not supposed to do all the time. I dont care if Spideys got pre-cog he cant move faster than something going at 185,000 miles per second, and even if he could what about Beast, Daredevil and all the others who dont have pre-cog they should all be dead.

You aren't being realistic. You're being puerile.

Spider-Man actually has a reason to be able to dodge lasers, I don't think anyone has even said anything here about Captain America being able to dodge lasers, when his physical attributes are lower than Spider-Man's and in terms of those that would be applicable to dodging lasers Daredevil and Beast.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Dont give me that waste of time crap, you cant even read your own posts. I have finished with you on the street levellers collide thread were you said Cap fighting Spidey was CIS and NOT PIS. You then said it was both and then after that you said it was more PIS than CIS....hopeless.

I showed you FOUR time and you kept denying it.

If you were caught red handed you would go colour blind, you take the mick.

Unless Spider-Man fights like Forrest Gump, he wins, and unless you are Forrest Gump, you realise this.

With no one being able to come up with a possible and plausible means of Captain America winning in which both characters are utilitising their abilities to their fullest extent. Spider-Man wins.

Get over it.