cap vs spider-man

Originally posted by Alfheim
No there not because if I started a thread with Iron Man Vs Thing, you will all be there debating.

If the Marvel standards are ignored Iron Man should turn up in his suit and tie and get squashed by the Thing because he should not be able to create the suit.

People take the Marvel standards when it suits them its pure hypocrisy.

Actually they are, read the forum rules. (No PiS and No CiS)

What you're actually saying is a Peak human + Shield > Then a Superhuman with better Reflexes and Body stats + Upgrade from IronMan + Long Ranged Attacks.

You're also indirectly implying that Wolverine should be able to stab Thanos with Bone Claws and that Squirrel Girl should be able to beat Thanos with prep.

It would help if you read the thread.

I got bored reading halfway through due to the lack of reasoning on Capts side..

Exodus Cloak explain to me how Iron Man can build his suit? Does he have superhuman intelligence?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Exodus Cloak explain to me how Iron Man can build his suit? Does he have superhuman intelligence?

Seeing as how he's a technological genius... 🙄

Originally posted by Alfheim
Exodus Cloak explain to me how Iron Man can build his suit? Does he have superhuman intelligence?

Tony has money...and he's intelligent and according to Xavier he has gotten his hands on alien technology, so has Reed.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No there not because if I started a thread with Iron Man Vs Thing, you will all be there debating.

If the Marvel standards are ignored Iron Man should turn up in his suit and tie and get squashed by the Thing because he should not be able to create the suit.

People take the Marvel standards when it suits them its pure hypocrisy.

That's not what I meant. I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief in terms of fantasy. I think we can all agree that the Marvel characters live inside a more fantastical world where people are seemingly more capable. That goes for Captain as well, which is why I can accept that he outruns, outmuscles and outthinks the cream of the crop of real life humans. But what I'm saying is that basic physical standards are and SHOULD be the same, abeit proportionally and equally amped. That means the Marvel standard that Peak humans can take on higher powered beings and walk away from it unharmed remains ridiculous. Because Cap isn't the only one who's more powerful than his real life equivalent. Everybody is.

So in that sense, yes, Marvel's current standpoint that allows Captain A. to take on Spiderman should be ignored.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Tony has money...and he's intelligent and according to Xavier he has gotten his hands on alien technology, so has Reed.

Do you know when they got their hands on this technology? For example Iron Man has always been able to build that suit, did he get his hands on alien technology before he built the suit?

Originally posted by Dinalfos
That means the Marvel standard that Peak humans can take on higher powered beings and walk away from it unharmed remains ridiculous.

So in other words peak humans in the Marvel Universe should reflect peak humans in the real world? If Iron Man has got hold of alien technology that would explain it, but otherwise you should reject the ability of him to make that suit because no one can build anything like that suit in real life.

Originally posted by Alfheim

So in other words peak humans in the Marvel Universe should reflect peak humans in the real world? If Iron Man has got hold of alien technology that would explain it, but otherwise you should reject the ability of him to make that suit because no one can build anything like that suit in real life.

No, read the rest of my post. Peak humans don't have to reflect real world peak humans. But you just can't logically uphold the notion that peak humans (comics) can hang with superhumans(who are equally amped) without rendering the whole concept of peak humans uselsess. So Marvel should either:

1: increase CA's powerset
2: create an all new evolutionary hierarchy that doesn't resemble our real world one.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
No, read the rest of my post. Peak humans don't have to reflect real world peak humans. But you just can't logically uphold the notion that peak humans (comics) can hang with superhumans(who are equally amped) without rendering the whole concept of peak humans uselsess. So Marvel should either:

1: increase CA's powerset
2: create an all new evolutionary hierarchy that doesn't resemble our real world one.

Well whats the problem then? No one is saying that Cap can thrash Spidey, if anything they are saying he will lose the majority.

Another thing we keep saying is that Spiderman in alot of aspects is not greater than Cap by a huge amount only by strength.

Ok I agree, but to be quite honest with you thats a simialr thing with this class 100. You got people like Namor being able to lift 100, 000's of tons when people who have class 90 or 80 can cause him bother.

To be quite honest with you the whole thing is ****ed.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well whats the problem then? No one is saying that Cap can thrash Spidey, if anything they are saying he will lose the majority.

Another thing we keep saying is that Spiderman in alot of aspects is not greater than Cap by a huge amount only by strength.

Ok I agree, but to be quite honest with you thats a simialr thing with this class 100. You got people like Namor being able to lift 100, 000's of tons when people who have class 90 or 80 can cause him bother.

To be quite honest with you the whole thing is ****ed.

No, that's actually quite different. Like I said, Marvel is trying to mimic real world physics and order, albeit proportionally amped. That means that someone who is twice as strong as you could can still be beatenthrough tactics and quickness. I would agree, though, that on panel standards seem to fluctuate. ****ed up indeed, although the basic principles are the same. I think we should blame the writers for the fact that they seem to (unconsciously?) ignore their own rules.

But let me say that that's EXACTLY the reason why hypothetical fights cannot be based on what happened in the comics. Sometimes it can, because not everything is PIS, but most of the time it's just plain impossible to prove. Because for every example you bring up, there's another one to counter it. So in my opinion it's best if adopt the standards set by Marvel(homo inferior < Homo sapien <homo superior < etc. etc.) and ignore the comic book panels.

As I've said before, I don't mind Captain doing things his real life equivalent couldn't. But what I do mind is that when he faces superior opponents, this principle is disproportionally applied. The weaker one becomes stronger, faster, better etc. while the superior one stays the same or becomes seemingly less powerful(PIS and/or Jobbing). THAT's why people scream PIS. It's all about proportion.

parker hands down.

Originally posted by Alfheim
[B]Do you know when they got their hands on this technology? For example Iron Man has always been able to build that suit, did he get his hands on alien technology before he built the suit?

Sometime after the Phoenix Saga not too sure when...that's after Lilandra informed Xavier of a Shiar space ship that was present on Earth ...Tony being a genius in the area of technology and having a company that specialzes in weaponry is well able to build a suit like that...the Shiar technology helped with his further modifications.

Spider-man could win this battle before his upgrades. With his upgrades and new suit, he wins this 10/10.

u got all wrong, spider man dose hold back and cap is the best fighter in most of the marvel u so if that suit is so dame powerful,that is the most BS i ever heard,cap beat the crap out of sm in amazing sm but sm got one shot in,now i know that sm suit has its features,but those things that come out of sm back,can come of by caps shield. and a uppercut by cap and the combo that cap dose.cap wins 7/10

Originally posted by Dinalfos

As I've said before, I don't mind Captain doing things his real life equivalent couldn't. But what I do mind is that when he faces superior opponents, this principle is disproportionally applied. The weaker one becomes stronger, faster, better etc. while the superior one stays the same or becomes seemingly less powerful(PIS and/or Jobbing). THAT's why people scream PIS. It's all about proportion.

Well ok I think I understand you. As I said before bare in mind that Cap as you know is peak human, he is not like people like Hawkeye or Shang Chi who are exceptional he is the absolute pinnacle.

Lets put it this way if superhuman were a country called Spain, Cap would not live in Spain but he would live in the south of France right next to the border of Spain. Cap eventhough he is French would be able to speak Spanish as well as French and would frequently travel to Northern Spain were he would meet some of his super buddies such as the Beast or Spiderman but he would never travel to the south of Spain were Thor and Hercules live.

I hope that makes sense. This would probably explain why the Beast said that Cap is almost as fast as him but Cap is still not considered superhuman. Cap eventhough he is human is so near to superhuman that he can deal with some superhumans, also logic dictates that he would do some superhuman feats.

Im going to answer Exodus cloaks post but at the same time it may deal with some of the things you said.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Sometime after the Phoenix Saga not too sure when...that's after Lilandra informed Xavier of a Shiar space ship that was present on Earth ...Tony being a genius in the area of technology and having a company that specialzes in weaponry is well able to build a suit like that...the Shiar technology helped with his further modifications.

Yes that would explain somethings but not everything. How many Iron Man issues were there before this saga, ALOT. How many issues were there before Reed got his hand on alien technology? What about Dr Doom, im sure at some point he has got his hand on alien technology but that would not explain everything.

Ok it depends on how you look at it, either you can say you want this forum to try and make it reflect real life or you try to accept the marvel classifications but try to make the classifications alot more clearer ( I think this is what Dinalfos was trying to say).

If you want the forum to reflect real life ban all Iron Man threads, because eventhough he got his hand on alien technology he would not be able to build anything like his suit until he got the technology. You then need to ban all Dr Strange threads because no one in the real world can teach themselves powers on the level which he has.

The other way is to accept that everything in the Marvel Universe is exaggerated but still try to make it more realistic and accurate. Yes we need to accept the classifications Peak Human etc etc but you also have to bear in mind in the Marvel universe talents give humans the equivalent of super powers.

Dr Strange may have powers but he learn't how to do magic, it would not therefore be inaccuarte to say Dr Strange has talents and not powers (excluding magical artifacts). Dr Doom does not have superhuman intelligence but displays superhuman intelligence.

Captain America is the Dr Doom of martial arts. Some of the superhumans he faces eventhough they may have highier stats like Spiderman, Spiderman is not a great deal superior to Cap only in strength. There was a time when Cap had to face alot of the Power Brokers henchmen evnthough they had superhuman strength and endurance , they had human agility and intelligence. So Cap sometimes Cap can use his intelligence and speed to beat slower and not so smart superhuman opponents, but of course if someone has super speed as well he has a problem.

Captain America is a genuis in martial arts and that would include; internal martial arts. I didn't want to bring this up but here goes. External martial arts are martial arts like kick boxing, boxing, thai boxing (maybe), basically any martial art that does not include meditation or training of the mind. Internal martial arts are martial arts such as kung Fu, Thai Chi, Qi gong, Karate and Ninjuitsu can go into that category.

Internal martials arts beat the crap out of external martial arts and include such things as Iron shirt were humans can be hit by swords and spears and still resist the damage, also you see tai chi masters throwing people twice there size.

You got to understand its not just Caps peak human stats that makes him do what he does its what he knows. Cap is a genuis at martial arts and im sure Kung Fu and Tai Chi would come into that. Even in the real world it is arguable wether these martial arts can give you "superhuman" stats.

Ive meet people and talked to people who do this stuff, but im not going to say anything because you will be just taking my word for it. just slam into google - Internal martial arts, Iron Shirt , Qi gong and decide for yourself.

Now you have some one with Caps physical stats, who is a genuis in martial arts then give him the knowledge of martial arts such as Tai Chi and Kung Fu in the Marvel Universe as far as im concerned this explains how he can keep up With Spidey and other superheroes.

Genuis = Superpower

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok I think I understand you. As I said before bare in mind that Cap as you know is peak human, he is not like people like Hawkeye or Shang Chi who are exceptional he is the absolute pinnacle.

Lets put it this way if superhuman were a country called Spain, Cap would not live in Spain but he would live in the south of France right next to the border of Spain. Cap eventhough he is French would be able to speak Spanish as well as French and would frequently travel to Northern Spain were he would meet some of his super buddies such as the Beast or Spiderman but he would never travel to the south of Spain were Thor and Hercules live.

I hope that makes sense. This would probably explain why the Beast said that Cap is almost as fast as him but Cap is still not considered superhuman. Cap eventhough he is human is so near to superhuman that he can deal with some superhumans, also logic dictates that he would do some superhuman feats.

Im going to answer Exodus cloaks post but at the same time it may deal with some of the things you said.

Yes that would explain somethings but not everything. How many Iron Man issues were there before this saga, ALOT. How many issues were there before Reed got his hand on alien technology? What about Dr Doom, im sure at some point he has got his hand on alien technology but that would not explain everything.

Ok it depends on how you look at it, either you can say you want this forum to try and make it reflect real life or you try to accept the marvel classifications but try to make the classifications alot more clearer ( I think this is what Dinalfos was trying to say).

If you want the forum to reflect real life ban all Iron Man threads, because eventhough he got his hand on alien technology he would not be able to build anything like his suit until he got the technology. You then need to ban all Dr Strange threads because no one in the real world can teach themselves powers on the level which he has.

The other way is to accept that everything in the Marvel Universe is exaggerated but still try to make it more realistic and accurate. Yes we need to accept the classifications Peak Human etc etc but you also have to bear in mind in the Marvel universe talents give humans the equivalent of super powers.

Dr Strange may have powers but he learn't how to do magic, it would not therefore be inaccuarte to say Dr Strange has talents and not powers (excluding magical artifacts). Dr Doom does not have superhuman intelligence but displays superhuman intelligence.

Captain America is the Dr Doom of martial arts. Some of the superhumans he faces eventhough they may have highier stats like Spiderman, Spiderman is not a great deal superior to Cap only in strength. There was a time when Cap had to face alot of the Power Brokers henchmen evnthough they had superhuman strength and endurance , they had human agility and intelligence. So Cap sometimes Cap can use his intelligence and speed to beat slower and not so smart superhuman opponents, but of course if someone has super speed as well he has a problem.

Captain America is a genuis in martial arts and that would include; internal martial arts. I didn't want to bring this up but here goes. External martial arts are martial arts like kick boxing, boxing, thai boxing (maybe), basically any martial art that does not include meditation or training of the mind. Internal martial arts are martial arts such as kung Fu, Thai Chi, Qi gong, Karate and Ninjuitsu can go into that category.

Internal martials arts beat the crap out of external martial arts and include such things as Iron shirt were humans can be hit by swords and spears and still resist the damage, also you see tai chi masters throwing people twice there size.

[B]You got to understand its not just Caps peak human stats that makes him do what he does its what he knows. Cap is a genuis at martial arts and im sure Kung Fu and Tai Chi would come into that. Even in the real world it is arguable wether these martial arts can give you "superhuman" stats.

Ive meet people and talked to people who do this stuff, but im not going to say anything because you will be just taking my word for it. just slam into google - Internal martial arts, Iron Shirt , Qi gong and decide for yourself.

Now you have some one with Caps physical stats, who is a genuis in martial arts then give him the knowledge of martial arts such as Tai Chi and Kung Fu in the Marvel Universe as far as im concerned this explains how he can keep up With Spidey and other superheroes.

Genuis = Superpower [/B]

I agree showing superhuman intellect should be considered a talent but it doesn't always equal a win especially in Capts case.(He's a genius in H2H combat so it's all short-ranged. Not to mention that his peak human bones can be still be broken by a less skilled, stronger and quicker opponent.)

It makes sense and it's a good theory for the comics...but you're forgetting one thing...rules say both combatants are bloodlusted..this means both are fighting to their best ability. Capt may be a genius when it comes to combat but he's no "techno-genius"...that's why Doom and Tony win so many of their battles on these forums. Doom and Tony have so many gadgets it's almost impossible to counter them unless you have Super Speed. Don't forget they're also fighting in a neutral enviroment this means there's no outside help from weapons eg. rocks, sticks, branches etc and enviromental factors.(There goes Capts combat expeirence advantage) The thing I find hard to comprehend is how is Capt going to take Spiderman down? His shield will be dodged quite easily via the Spidey Reflexes, Spidey Agility and Spidey Sense. Spidey is capable of jumping away from Capt and attacking him from long-range. And without any enviromental advantage I don't see how Capt can do anything. Also if Spidey decides to go H2H with Capt...Parker still has the Strength, Durability, Agility and Spider Sense advantage, meaning he should dodge most if not every one of Capts attacks due to his Spider Sense and still be able to land faster and stronger punches back on Capt.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I agree showing superhuman intellect should be considered a talent but it doesn't always equal a win especially in Capts case.(He's a genius in H2H combat so it's all short-ranged. Not to mention that his peak human bones can be still be broken by a less skilled, stronger and quicker opponent.)

Yeah I know but vice versa. Its like we are saying Cap wont be able to win the majority but he can put up a good fight.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Capt may be a genius when it comes to combat but he's no "techno-genius"...that's why Doom and Tony win so many of their battles on these forums.

Yeah I know but your missing the point. Humans wether they are martial artists, techo-genuises or users of magic can be compensated when they fight superhumans. Remember Dr Strange's powers can also be considered a talent.

If Dr Strange can teach himself Telepathy and Levitation I dont see why Captain America cant use his martial arts against superhumans. If you have a DR Strange thread is anyone going to take Strange's powers away from him?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Don't forget they're also fighting in a neutral enviroment this means there's no outside help from weapons eg. rocks, sticks, branches etc and enviromental factors.

What do you mean like out in a field? Or a danger room sort of envinronment, just floors, ceilings and walls?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

His shield will be dodged quite easily via the Spidey Reflexes, Spidey Agility and Spidey Sense. Spidey is capable of jumping away from Capt and attacking him from long-range. And without any enviromental advantage I don't see how Capt can do anything. Also if Spidey decides to go H2H with Capt...Parker still has the Strength, Durability, Agility and Spider Sense advantage, meaning he should dodge most if not every one of Capts attacks due to his Spider Sense and still be able to land faster and stronger punches back on Capt.

Well this has been answered. As I have said before Spidey is not superior by a huge amount to Cap in anything except strength. Cap can dodge his webbing and has done so, and Spidey can dodge his shield and has done so to. Sure enough Cap wont be able to dodge it all the time and if he gets caught he is toast. Spidey cannot dodge his hield all the time either.

ExodusCloak I really dont think you understand how much difference martial arts make. As I said before he is a martial art expert and that would include internal martial arts.

As I said before it just you taking my word for it but obvously if you have free time you can go and find out for yourself.

How does Cap take Spidermans blows? Iron Shirt. In the real world some people teach themselves to take blows from swords and spears unprotected. I knew a Qi gong master, this guy looks slim he said he let some guy who was twice his size lay into his chest, the Qi gong master said it felt like pinches. I repeat he let him punch him in the chest...he wasnt protecting himself. You get some one like Cap who learns this and im sure he can take blows from Spiderman. Cap is borderline superhuman give him Iron Shirt and that will boost durability.

How can Cap hurt him? Even in boxing there is a right and wrong way of punching if you do not punch properly you lose a great deal of power. Lets look at Wing chun, there is this thing called the one in punch. The one inch punch is exactly that, you move your fist an inch and you can finish off an opponent, imagine what these guys can do at full force with a normal punch. You give that knowledge to Cap who can arguably lift one or two tons at most AND knows pressure points, thats how he can hurt Spidey.

Spider mans, Spider sense is not infallible as has been said it can be tricked AND Captain America has STUDIED him. Spidey said so himself.

Spideys strength and agility? Yeah he is stronger and faster but hes not a martial artist sure he can fight, but he does not know any martial arts. The reason why he can beat up thugs is because he is stronger and faster not because he can fight. Give Spidey punisher stats and a normal boxer could probably have him.

Cap is not as strong and fast as he is but his talents compensate him. Dr Strange has magic, Cap has martial arts.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap is not as strong and fast as he is but his talents compensate him. Dr Strange has magic, Cap has martial arts.

Very well put. I also liked your Spain-France analogy, 😉.

Originally posted by Alfheim
[B]Yeah I know but vice versa. Its like we are saying Cap wont be able to win the majority but he can put up a good fight.

Not necessarily, Capts type of smarts won't help him against inexperienced superpowered foes like Dust, Hellion, Wallflower etc

Also he may keep dodging the web slingers meaning it may take time for him to go down but in the end he'll go down. Spidey moves too quickly Spidey's Agility, Strength and Speed are far superior to Capts.

Strength
A motivated(Bloodlusted) Spidey can do this:
http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29825wc.gif
http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36536ox.gif
http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36543pt.gif

Speed
Moving faster then a Super Computer...well that's possibly his Spidey Sense at work as well.
http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29817cz.gif

Yeah I know but your missing the point. Humans wether they are martial artists, techo-genuises or users of magic can be compensated when they fight superhumans. Remember Dr Strange's powers can also be considered a talent.

If Dr Strange can teach himself Telepathy and Levitation I dont see why Captain America cant use his martial arts against superhumans. If you have a DR Strange thread is anyone going to take Strange's powers away from him?

There's a difference there Stranges power allow him to thrash most Superheroes...Capt has H2H..his damage soak may be very big however his durability is still peak human, his spine is still very vunerable to super strength, the soft areas of his head are also still very vunerable.

What do you mean like out in a field? Or a danger room sort of envinronment, just floors, ceilings and walls?

I try to think of it as a arena that looks like space with absolutely nothing...except a floor.

Well this has been answered. As I have said before Spidey is not superior by a huge amount to Cap in anything except strength. Cap can dodge his webbing and has done so, and Spidey can dodge his shield and has done so to. Sure enough Cap wont be able to dodge it all the time and if he gets caught he is toast. Spidey cannot dodge his hield all the time either.

I think you're underestimating Spidey, he's stats especially speed and agility are amazing. You should check out his respect thread.

ExodusCloak I really dont think you understand how much difference martial arts make. As I said before he is a martial art expert and that would include internal martial arts.

As I said before it just you taking my word for it but obvously if you have free time you can go and find out for yourself.

How does Cap take Spidermans blows? Iron Shirt. In the real world some people teach themselves to take blows from swords and spears unprotected. I knew a Qi gong master, this guy looks slim he said he let some guy who was twice his size lay into his chest, the Qi gong master said it felt like pinches. I repeat he let him punch him in the chest...he wasnt protecting himself. You get some one like Cap who learns this and im sure he can take blows from Spiderman. Cap is borderline superhuman give him Iron Shirt and that will boost durability.

Capts face is pretty vunerable though...In Wolverine Origins Capts fight with Wolverine caused him to have blood clotting which caused him severe pain, he was floored by the pain. A punch to the face from a bloodlusted Spidey should cause more then internal bleeding.

But if a person would Super Strength used a sword to chop off a Qi gong master's hand....would the master then be able to block it?

How can Cap hurt him? Even in boxing there is a right and wrong way of punching if you do not punch properly you lose a great deal of power. Lets look at Wing chun, there is this thing called the one in punch. The one inch punch is exactly that, you move your fist an inch and you can finish off an opponent, imagine what these guys can do at full force with a normal punch. You give that knowledge to Cap who can arguably lift one or two tons at most AND knows pressure points, thats how he can hurt Spidey.

That's possible but from what we've seen Spidey(10-15 tons more when bloodlusted) hasn't shown any problem punching people. It's possible his technique maybe a bit off but it hasn't hurt him yet.

Spider mans, Spider sense is not infallible as has been said it can be tricked AND Captain America has STUDIED him. Spidey said so himself.

That is true but you could give a person who is a master in every art of combat a whole year to study a person with super strength(10-15 tons), super speed and super durabilty and precognitive abilities, place them in an adamatium room and let them kill each other.... I'd still put my money on the person with super strength.

BTW A Spidey out for blood, who's using all his abilities to the fullest, and who's also very well learnt in science/biology will also go for the most vunerable parts of the human body. Heck I would...

Spideys strength and agility? Yeah he is stronger and faster but hes not a martial artist sure he can fight, but he does not know any martial arts. The reason why he can beat up thugs is because he is stronger and faster not because he can fight. Give Spidey punisher stats and a normal boxer could probably have him.

That is true he may not be able to fight but a bloodlusted Spidey punch to a vunerable part of Capts head or back of Capts neck should be enough to put Capt down.

Cap is not as strong and fast as he is but his talents compensate him. Dr Strange has magic, Cap has martial arts.

A person with H2H Skills, inner strength, great damage soak and peak human stats is good and all but a person who's strength level is around 10-15 tons and who's speed and agility and reflexes are far superior can still snap their neck.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I know but vice versa. Its like we are saying Cap wont be able to win the majority but he can put up a good fight.

Yeah I know but your missing the point. Humans wether they are martial artists, techo-genuises or users of magic can be compensated when they fight superhumans. Remember Dr Strange's powers can also be considered a talent.

If Dr Strange can teach himself Telepathy and Levitation I dont see why Captain America cant use his martial arts against superhumans. If you have a DR Strange thread is anyone going to take Strange's powers away from him?

What do you mean like out in a field? Or a danger room sort of envinronment, just floors, ceilings and walls?

Well this has been answered. As I have said before Spidey is not superior by a huge amount to Cap in anything except strength. Cap can dodge his webbing and has done so, and Spidey can dodge his shield and has done so to. Sure enough Cap wont be able to dodge it all the time and if he gets caught he is toast. Spidey cannot dodge his hield all the time either.

ExodusCloak I really dont think you understand how much difference martial arts make. As I said before he is a martial art expert and that would include internal martial arts.

As I said before it just you taking my word for it but obvously if you have free time you can go and find out for yourself.

How does Cap take Spidermans blows? Iron Shirt. In the real world some people teach themselves to take blows from swords and spears unprotected. I knew a Qi gong master, this guy looks slim he said he let some guy who was twice his size lay into his chest, the Qi gong master said it felt like pinches. I repeat he let him punch him in the chest...he wasnt protecting himself. You get some one like Cap who learns this and im sure he can take blows from Spiderman. Cap is borderline superhuman give him Iron Shirt and that will boost durability.

How can Cap hurt him? Even in boxing there is a right and wrong way of punching if you do not punch properly you lose a great deal of power. Lets look at Wing chun, there is this thing called the one in punch. The one inch punch is exactly that, you move your fist an inch and you can finish off an opponent, imagine what these guys can do at full force with a normal punch. You give that knowledge to Cap who can arguably lift one or two tons at most AND knows pressure points, thats how he can hurt Spidey.

Spider mans, Spider sense is not infallible as has been said it can be tricked AND Captain America has STUDIED him. Spidey said so himself.

Spideys strength and agility? Yeah he is stronger and faster but hes not a martial artist sure he can fight, but he does not know any martial arts. The reason why he can beat up thugs is because he is stronger and faster not because he can fight. Give Spidey punisher stats and a normal boxer could probably have him.

Cap is not as strong and fast as he is but his talents compensate him. Dr Strange has magic, Cap has martial arts.

Kudos. This is a very nice post and I must give you credit. Your analogies were very nice but I think you miss a couple of key facts.

Firstly, Spider-Man is physically superior to Cap in more than just strength. Speed, agility...the whole nine yards. In every physical aspect Spider-Man is superior.

You say Cap can takes blows from Spider-Man cause of his suit. Well what about all the other times other fighers, eg normal martial artists, have been able to hurt him through the suit. Persons even weaker than Cap have hurt him even with his suit on so I don't think it'd do much good against Spider-Man.

Your example with the martial artist is very nice except there is a major strength difference your two guys and Cap and Spider-Man. Ver big difference.

Your right, Spider-Man with Punisher stats probably can be beaten by a boxer. But not cause he's weak. Its cause his own unique fighting style won't work without his superhuman abilities. He may be an accomplished MA but he's developed his own style based on his on abilites that has proven very effective over the years.

I'm sorry, but just because Cap has "studied" Spider-Man (a fact I'm hard pressed to believe) doesn't mean he beat him. Kinda like just because I understand how guns work doesn't mean I can't get killed by one. It definitely gives me an edge over the guys who are clueless as to what a gun is, but doesn't equate to my survival if im shot point blank. Knowledge is a help for Cap but I don't see how it helps against a guy who can lay him out in one punch

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Sometime after the Phoenix Saga not too sure when...that's after Lilandra informed Xavier of a Shiar space ship that was present on Earth ...Tony being a genius in the area of technology and having a company that specialzes in weaponry is well able to build a suit like that...the Shiar technology helped with his further modifications.

add to that, pre Fatal Attractions Storyarc Stark Enterprises represented by John Rhodes aka War Machine [X-force 20-22] is seen on Earth then later in space scheming with Nick Fury & pulling jack moves on Graymalkin [a space station from the 30th century] for its tech

Starks link with Shiar tech while unproven, is credible.