cap vs spider-man

Originally posted by don't shiv
add to that, pre Fatal Attractions Storyarc Stark Enterprises represented by John Rhodes aka War Machine [X-force 20-22] is seen on Earth then later in space scheming with Nick Fury & pulling jack moves on Graymalkin [a space station from the 30th century] for its tech

Starks link with Shiar tech while unproven, is credible.

Oh yeah I forgot to name the comic where ithe Stark/Shiar link thing happened, Xavier said that...it's in the New Uncanny X-men #476 when Xavier shows his X-Men the shiar space ship.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok I think I understand you. As I said before bare in mind that Cap as you know is peak human, he is not like people like Hawkeye or Shang Chi who are exceptional he is the absolute pinnacle.

Lets put it this way if superhuman were a country called Spain, Cap would not live in Spain but he would live in the south of France right next to the border of Spain. Cap eventhough he is French would be able to speak Spanish as well as French and would frequently travel to Northern Spain were he would meet some of his super buddies such as the Beast or Spiderman but he would never travel to the south of Spain were Thor and Hercules live.

I hope that makes sense. This would probably explain why the Beast said that Cap is almost as fast as him but Cap is still not considered superhuman. Cap eventhough he is human is so near to superhuman that he can deal with some superhumans, also logic dictates that he would do some superhuman feats.

Im going to answer Exodus cloaks post but at the same time it may deal with some of the things you said.

Yes that would explain somethings but not everything. How many Iron Man issues were there before this saga, ALOT. How many issues were there before Reed got his hand on alien technology? What about Dr Doom, im sure at some point he has got his hand on alien technology but that would not explain everything.

Ok it depends on how you look at it, either you can say you want this forum to try and make it reflect real life or you try to accept the marvel classifications but try to make the classifications alot more clearer ( I think this is what Dinalfos was trying to say).

If you want the forum to reflect real life ban all Iron Man threads, because eventhough he got his hand on alien technology he would not be able to build anything like his suit until he got the technology. You then need to ban all Dr Strange threads because no one in the real world can teach themselves powers on the level which he has.

The other way is to accept that everything in the Marvel Universe is exaggerated but still try to make it more realistic and accurate. Yes we need to accept the classifications Peak Human etc etc but you also have to bear in mind in the Marvel universe talents give humans the equivalent of super powers.

Dr Strange may have powers but he learn't how to do magic, it would not therefore be inaccuarte to say Dr Strange has talents and not powers (excluding magical artifacts). Dr Doom does not have superhuman intelligence but displays superhuman intelligence.

Captain America is the Dr Doom of martial arts. Some of the superhumans he faces eventhough they may have highier stats like Spiderman, Spiderman is not a great deal superior to Cap only in strength. There was a time when Cap had to face alot of the Power Brokers henchmen evnthough they had superhuman strength and endurance , they had human agility and intelligence. So Cap sometimes Cap can use his intelligence and speed to beat slower and not so smart superhuman opponents, but of course if someone has super speed as well he has a problem.

Captain America is a genuis in martial arts and that would include; internal martial arts. I didn't want to bring this up but here goes. External martial arts are martial arts like kick boxing, boxing, thai boxing (maybe), basically any martial art that does not include meditation or training of the mind. Internal martial arts are martial arts such as kung Fu, Thai Chi, Qi gong, Karate and Ninjuitsu can go into that category.

Internal martials arts beat the crap out of external martial arts and include such things as Iron shirt were humans can be hit by swords and spears and still resist the damage, also you see tai chi masters throwing people twice there size.

[B]You got to understand its not just Caps peak human stats that makes him do what he does its what he knows. Cap is a genuis at martial arts and im sure Kung Fu and Tai Chi would come into that. Even in the real world it is arguable wether these martial arts can give you "superhuman" stats.

Ive meet people and talked to people who do this stuff, but im not going to say anything because you will be just taking my word for it. just slam into google - Internal martial arts, Iron Shirt , Qi gong and decide for yourself.

Now you have some one with Caps physical stats, who is a genuis in martial arts then give him the knowledge of martial arts such as Tai Chi and Kung Fu in the Marvel Universe as far as im concerned this explains how he can keep up With Spidey and other superheroes.

Genuis = Superpower [/B]

excluding Judo, Jujitsu and Plot Induced Stupidity Please elaborate Where, When & from Whom Captain America learnt External and Internal! martial arts.

Originally posted by marvelprince
Kudos. This is a very nice post and I must give you credit. Your analogies were very nice but I think you miss a couple of key facts.

Firstly, Spider-Man is physically superior to Cap in more than just strength. Speed, agility...the whole nine yards. In every physical aspect Spider-Man is superior.

You say Cap can takes blows from Spider-Man cause of his suit. Well what about all the other times other fighers, eg normal martial artists, have been able to hurt him through the suit. Persons even weaker than Cap have hurt him even with his suit on so I don't think it'd do much good against Spider-Man.

Your example with the martial artist is very nice except there is a major strength difference your two guys and Cap and Spider-Man. Ver big difference.

Your right, Spider-Man with Punisher stats probably can be beaten by a boxer. But not cause he's weak. Its cause his own unique fighting style won't work without his superhuman abilities. He may be an accomplished MA but he's developed his own style based on his on abilites that has proven very effective over the years.

I'm sorry, but just because Cap has "studied" Spider-Man (a fact I'm hard pressed to believe) doesn't mean he beat him. Kinda like just because I understand how guns work doesn't mean I can't get killed by one. It definitely gives me an edge over the guys who are clueless as to what a gun is, but doesn't equate to my survival if im shot point blank. Knowledge is a help for Cap but I don't see how it helps against a guy who can lay him out in one punch

Well see you tommorrow, good posts but dont have the time to answer them. I wonder if more people are going to post anything, I already have three posts to reply too!

Originally posted by marvelprince
Kudos. This is a very nice post and I must give you credit. Your analogies were very nice but I think you miss a couple of key facts.

Firstly, Spider-Man is physically superior to Cap in more than just strength. Speed, agility...the whole nine yards. In every physical aspect Spider-Man is superior.

You say Cap can takes blows from Spider-Man cause of his suit. Well what about all the other times other fighers, eg normal martial artists, have been able to hurt him through the suit. Persons even weaker than Cap have hurt him even with his suit on so I don't think it'd do much good against Spider-Man.

Your example with the martial artist is very nice except there is a major strength difference your two guys and Cap and Spider-Man. Ver big difference.

Your right, Spider-Man with Punisher stats probably can be beaten by a boxer. But not cause he's weak. Its cause his own unique fighting style won't work without his superhuman abilities. He may be an accomplished MA but he's developed his own style based on his on abilites that has proven very effective over the years.

I'm sorry, but just because Cap has "studied" Spider-Man (a fact I'm hard pressed to believe) doesn't mean he beat him. Kinda like just because I understand how guns work doesn't mean I can't get killed by one. It definitely gives me an edge over the guys who are clueless as to what a gun is, but doesn't equate to my survival if im shot point blank. Knowledge is a help for Cap but I don't see how it helps against a guy who can lay him out in one punch

This is why I've always liked you.

O God not this thread again!!! AAAAAIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

I think that was an average reply. Its just right now im overdosing on Cap Vs Spiderman....right now I have just had it up to here with thread. Part of problem is you have to keep repeating the same stuff again and again and sometimes people dont quite get it.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not necessarily, Capts type of smarts won't help him against inexperienced superpowered foes like Dust, Hellion, Wallflower etc

Well I dont know who they are but I think you're blowing what I said out of proportion I said his abilities will help him against some superhumans not all. I thought cap could take Iceman until they showed me what Iceman could do.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Also he may keep dodging the web slingers meaning it may take time for him to go down but in the end he'll go down.

Yeah thats true.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Spidey moves too quickly Spidey's Agility, Strength and Speed are far superior to Capts.

*sigh* Im not being bad, but this is why sometimes i say people have not read the thread. Spidey is only far superior in terms of strength. If you look at Spidey's relexes they are superior to Cap's but you see Cap doing simialr stuff.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Speed
Moving faster then a Super Computer...well that's possibly his Spidey Sense at work as well.
http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29817cz.gif

You have a pic of him dodging a computer. I can get a pic of Cap doing something similar. Some one posted a pic of Spiderman dodging the Hulk, I could have posted a pic of Cap dodging the Hulk, not as well as Spidey but still dodging the Hulk. It really is pointless posting pics its just *** fot tat.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

There's a difference there Stranges power allow him to thrash most Superheroes...Capt has H2H..his damage soak may be very big however his durability is still peak human, his spine is still very vunerable to super strength, the soft areas of his head are also still very vunerable.

This is what I mean, I honestly dont think you get what im saying. Im not sure if you are aware of this but people in the real world actually practice magick. In the real world in the West most people spell it with a K on the end of magic. There is also a training for magick the same way as there is in martial arts, but they overlaps sometimes.

Im not sure if its possible wether people can actually gain blantant supernatural abilities but im sure they can do extrodinary things ( photographic memory, extrodinary speed and agility...other stuff im not even going to talk about).

As far as I know nobody in the real world can do what Dr Strange does, nobody in the real world can do what Tony Starks can do with intelligence, nobody can do what Captain America does.

In the Marvel Universe talents compensate for no powers. Im tallking equal rights here. Dr Strange has his powers, Captain America has his amazing fighting ability...or ban Dr Strange threads and Iron man threads. hammer

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

I try to think of it as a arena that looks like space with absolutely nothing...except a floor.

Well this is news to me. Surely if we were trying to be realistic there would be walls.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

I think you're underestimating Spidey, he's stats especially speed and agility are amazing. You should check out his respect thread.

I have already answered this.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Capts face is pretty vunerable though...In Wolverine Origins Capts fight with Wolverine caused him to have blood clotting which caused him severe pain, he was floored by the pain.

Wolverine is a martial arts expert too, he would not punch like Spiderman. I am certain that Wolverine knows internal martial arts too he has studied alot of martial arts in Japan.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

But if a person would Super Strength used a sword to chop off a Qi gong master's hand....would the master then be able to block it?

Depends on how super the guys is.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

That is true but you could give a person who is a master in every art of combat a whole year to study a person with super strength(10-15 tons), super speed and super durabilty and precognitive abilities, place them in an adamatium room and let them kill each other.... I'd still put my money on the person with super strength.

Fine. I am not even saying he would win the majority im just saying he is not going to go down like a wuss, but I think he could pull one or two wins.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

BTW A Spidey out for blood, who's using all his abilities to the fullest, and who's also very well learnt in science/biology will also go for the most vunerable parts of the human body. Heck I would...

They dont teach you pressure points in biology. They do in martial arts, thats why some martial arts shops sell posters with all the weak areas of the body.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

That is true he may not be able to fight but a bloodlusted Spidey punch to a vunerable part of Capts head or back of Capts neck should be enough to put Capt down.

Spidey does not fight like that he is not a martial arts expert he is a brawler. Why would he be looking for vulnerbale spots anyway, he would be looking to cave his ****ing face in.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

A person with H2H Skills, inner strength, great damage soak and peak human stats is good and all but a person who's strength level is around 10-15 tons and who's speed and agility and reflexes are far superior can still snap their neck.

I have already answered this.

Originally posted by marvelprince
Kudos. This is a very nice post and I must give you credit. Your analogies were very nice but I think you miss a couple of key facts.

Firstly, Spider-Man is physically superior to Cap in more than just strength. Speed, agility...the whole nine yards. In every physical aspect Spider-Man is superior.

Nope he is only far superior in strength. I have already explained this. Oh yeah another thing that Cap is superior to Spiderman is strategy in general not just fighting. Im not saying Spiderman is dumb but you can bet your bottom dollar if you get a group of superheroes they will vote Cap to be leader and not Spiderman

Originally posted by marvelprince

You say Cap can takes blows from Spider-Man cause of his suit. Well what about all the other times other fighers, eg normal martial artists, have been able to hurt him through the suit. Persons even weaker than Cap have hurt him even with his suit on so I don't think it'd do much good against Spider-Man.

Nooo, not his suit...Iron Shirt its a martial arts technique people like the Shaolin Monks can take sword blows and powerful blows in vulnerbale areas. This is what im saying...Cap is the absolute pinnacle of humanity, on his stats alone with fighting up to brawler standard he would be very near to Beast. Eventhough he is human he right outside the border of Superhuman. Remember Superhuman = Spain, Captain America = South of France, right next to the border. You give Cap martial arts, but also make him a genuis of martial arts and that would include stuff like Kung Fu and Tai chi that would explain how he can take superhuman damage and grapple superhumans. I am also saying to you in Marvel talented people are so good at what they do they can be considered powers eg Dr Strange, Iron Man...EQUAL RIGHTS!

Yeah he has been hurt by weaker people but I know Iron shirt can be switched on and off sometimes a person may not be using it and can be caught by suprise. Bare in mind stronger guys are always being hurt by weakers guys in Marvel.

Originally posted by marvelprince

Your example with the martial artist is very nice except there is a major strength difference your two guys and Cap and Spider-Man. Ver big difference.

But in terms of skill there is a HUGE difference as well. This is why everytime Spiderman has had the advantage over Cap its with webbing, because everytime they get in close Cap mullers Spiderman, he probably wont even get a chance to punch him, he will have to web him and punch him.

Originally posted by marvelprince

Your right, Spider-Man with Punisher stats probably can be beaten by a boxer. But not cause he's weak. Its cause his own unique fighting style won't work without his superhuman abilities. He may be an accomplished MA but he's developed his own style based on his on abilites that has proven very effective over the years.

Yeah but everbody know thats Spiderman is not a martial arts expert he is a brawler with superhuman stats. Punch, kick and throw nothing spectacular.

Originally posted by marvelprince

I'm sorry, but just because Cap has "studied" Spider-Man (a fact I'm hard pressed to believe)

Your hard pressed to belive.....ok so when Spiderman said that he has in black and white..this means nothing. C'mon man, if you're not going to take that as evidence I mgiht as well not bother because you will just deny anything you dont like.

Originally posted by marvelprince

Kinda like just because I understand how guns work doesn't mean I can't get killed by one. It definitely gives me an edge over the guys who are clueless as to what a gun is, but doesn't equate to my survival if im shot point blank. Knowledge is a help for Cap but I don't see how it helps against a guy who can lay him out in one punch

Yeah you can still get killed like you said but it still helps. Well i dont think he can lay him out in one punch, and if it comes to a brawl Cap has always beaten him, Spiderman will have to go long range.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Oh yeah I forgot to name the comic where ithe Stark/Shiar link thing happened, Xavier said that...it's in the New Uncanny X-men #476 when Xavier shows his X-Men the shiar space ship.

Thats no good thats means Iron Man has had his suit for ages without using alien technology. By your reasoning I ron Man would only have started once he got hold of the Alien technology in the issue.

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh* Im not being bad, but this is why sometimes i say people have not read the thread. Spidey is only far superior in terms of strength. If you look at Spidey's relexes they are superior to Cap's but you see Cap doing simialr stuff.

Lots of lower-tier characters have done "similar" things. But it doesn't matter. It is a well-known fact that Spidey is leagues and leagues beyond Cap in all physical departments. So Cap has dodged bullets. Everyone has dodged bullets. Spidey, however, dodges them much faster, more efficiently, and usually with a much more numerous amount of projectiles (bullets, lasers, etc.) at the same time.

Spidey's physicality>>>>>>>>>>>>Cap's.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Nope he is only far superior in strength. I have already explained this. Oh yeah another thing that Cap is superior to Spiderman is strategy in general not just fighting. Im not saying Spiderman is dumb but you can bet your bottom dollar if you get a group of superheroes they will vote Cap to be leader and not Spiderman.

Just because you say you've explained it, doesn't make it true. Spidey is physically superior to Cap in every way.

And now back to work for me (hah...yeah right). 😛

Originally posted by don't shiv
excluding Judo, Jujitsu and Plot Induced Stupidity Please elaborate Where, When & from Whom Captain America learnt External and Internal! martial arts.

Eventhough the Marvel universe is fictional its is still based on reality. In the real world people who want to learn magick have to meditate, this is what Dr Strange did but the power he has is vastly superior.

Captain America is the one of the finest combatants ever to walk the earth he has to know internal martial arts. In the real world a master at internal martial arts will take out an external in one second flat or less. Dont belive me compare the Shaolin Monks to kickboxers.

Captain America has to know this to be the best. Bare in mind the writers probably dont know as much as I do about this stuff that is why they give explanations such as pressure points and leverage and not chi.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Lots of lower-tier characters have done "similar" things. But it doesn't matter. It is a well-known fact that Spidey is leagues and leagues beyond Cap in all physical departments. So Cap has dodged bullets. Everyone has dodged bullets. Spidey, however, dodges them much faster, more efficiently, and usually with a much more numerous amount of projectiles (bullets, lasers, etc.) at the same time.

Spidey's physicality>>>>>>>>>>>>Cap's.

Both cap and Spidey are very acrobatic and you see them dodging in this manner. Who are these low tier characters....the punisher.? I already told you what Beast said and the Beast is not much slower than Spidey *sigh*

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Just because you say you've explained it, doesn't make it true. Spidey is physically superior to Cap in every way.

And now back to work for me (hah...yeah right). 😛

You just read my post in one second flat...

I dont belive im doing this...*sigh*

Not all low tier characters can do this....and no he is not just using his shield, he is using both his shield and agility. Yes Spiderman can do this better but its something similar to his level, all I can do is compare.

http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3039130ep.jpg

What does Beast say? Everyones knows Beast is almost as fast as Spiderman and if Cap is as almost as nimble as the Beast? Spiderman is not superior by a great deal. I dont know where you get this Spidey is FAR superior from. Oh yeah Cap lets the Beast hit him by the way.....before you pick on that as well.

http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersannual11332wh.jpg

Originally posted by Alfheim
Both cap and Spidey are very acrobatic and you see them dodging in this manner. Who are these low tier characters....the punisher.? I already told you what Beast said and the Beast is not much slower than Spidey *sigh*

Yea, I know what Beast said. He said "nearly". That means "not-as-good-as-but-close". And Beast is fast and agile. Spider-Man is much faster. So really, it's not saying much in this situation. 😬

Originally posted by Alfheim
You just read my post in one second flat...

It's how I roll.

Originally posted by Alfheim
In the real world a master at internal martial arts will take out an external in one second flat or less. Dont belive me compare the Shaolin Monks to kickboxers.
[/B]

I hate to point this out, but Shaolin monks would be destroyed by someone who trained in, say...militech fighting. Many (monks) have acknowledged this fact, and claim that they do not study Martial Arts to be fighters, but rather, for the meditative peace, and inner equilibrium.

But you pit one of them against a Pride or UFC fighter? Well...you're right that the fight wouldn't last long, but you're pitting on the wrong pony.

Hell, some Shaolin taught fighters already HAVE gone down against the likes of the Gracie's in the early days.

Not to take anything away from them, they can do some amazing things. Two finger handstand pushups? Yeah. Your Iron-shirt claim? Yeah. I've seen it. I've watched them absorb hits from clubs like it was nothing. I've seen their insane balance, and the like.

That said? A broken bone is a broken bone. It doesn't matter if you're a kid in a high school brawl, a street fighter, a PRIDE fighter, or a monk. A broken bone's a broken bone.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Yea, I know what Beast said. He said "nearly". That means "not-as-good-as-but-close". And Beast is fast and agile. Spider-Man is much faster. So really, it's not saying much in this situation. 😬

Spider-man isn't really THAT much of beast's superior. They are pretty close....

That is, unless you can show me a scan of Spiderman punking hank.

But then again, I suppose I could show you a scan of Cap doing the same.

As I keep saying, Spider-man wins the majority. Mostly due to his webbing. But if the fight were in a cube, and Spider-man was restricted from his webbing? Cap would manage to take a majority from Pete. Perhaps a slight one, but a majority nonetheless.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont belive im doing this...*sigh*

Not all low tier characters can do this....and no he is not just using his shield, he is using both his shield and agility. Yes Spiderman can do this better but its something similar to his level, all I can do is compare.

http://img459.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3039130ep.jpg

What does Beast say? Everyones knows Beast is almost as fast as Spiderman and if Cap is as almost as nimble as the Beast? Spiderman is not superior by a great deal. I dont know where you get this Spidey is FAR superior from. Oh yeah Cap lets the Beast hit him by the way.....before you pick on that as well.

http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersannual11332wh.jpg

First scan: Notice how that without his shield, Cap would've died. Also notice how Spider-Man doesn't need a shield, but just dodges everything coming at him. I don't know how your brain works, but that makes Spidey faster/more agile/better reflexes.

Second scan: This doesn't help you at all here. Even though Cap is letting Beast hit him (yes, I can see that), Beast STILL comes "within a hairsbreath" of killing Cap. Beast. He's strong, yes. And Spider-Man is far stronger. If those few shots almost killed Cap, just think about what Spider-Man's punches will do. I mean, come on. Common sense.

Originally posted by Soljer
Spider-man isn't really THAT much of beast's superior. They are pretty close....

That is, unless you can show me a scan of Spiderman punking hank.

But then again, I suppose I could show you a scan of Cap doing the same.

As I keep saying, Spider-man wins the majority. Mostly due to his webbing. But if the fight were in a cube, and Spider-man was restricted from his webbing? Cap would manage to take a majority from Pete. Perhaps a slight one, but a majority nonetheless.

...Really? Restricted from webbing and placed in a cube, you really think Cap gets the majority? 😬