Originally posted by marvelprince
Very nice post. I'm impressed. Obviously a lot of time and careful thought went into this. But you are wrong on some points. Spider-Man is not an idiot, he actually has a pretty good idea of combat and tactics, something Cap has eluded to in the past. I admit he is nothing in comparison to Cap but he's no slouch.This talk about Peter's style. I don't how how many times I have to emphasize this but lets try again. Spider-Man has his own fighting style that works with his powers. All that "flipping around" has a purpose, as does his endless rambling. One can even argue that since one of his powers is the ability to achieve perfect equilibrium he can throw perfect punches since he'll never have to worry about positioning or being off balance.
Also, your math is a bit off. I've seen fight science and the "perfect punch" was thrown by a boxer at about 2000 pounds per square inch. He's a big guy, about 6"2' and 225 pounds if I had to guess. Thats already close to Cap's size and if you raise that to compensate Cap's strength, least say magnified by 10 we get 20000 pounds of force. Spider-man is still throw 40000 pounds, more than twice what Cap can generate and thats not factoring his balance and the added power he'd get by factoring power from his super strong legs, hips etc. So in reality Spidey would still be punching multiples more than Cap.
Thanks, like I said I have been following this Thread for awhile and thats just my opinion of things, and that guy who threw the perfect punch was a big guy I understand, but he also had years of training and technique to back that punch up, not just strength and size alone. I still believe the 160lbs guy hitting with 2500lbs of force to be more impressive.
And yes, it could be argued spidey can throw very hard punches in off balance postions, yeah, it could be argued.
Originally posted by ankur29
yo apolloknight ----cap can bench 1100lbs not 2200lbs (1ton) .he'd shit himself trying to lift it he ain't superhuman remember just enchanced peak humanspidey can bench 44092lbs which is 20 tons..thats 40 times more than cap at 1100lbs btw im not saying that his max but it definately is not 2200lbs(1 ton) ..spideys max is 20tons+ cause we seen some teh crap he can do under stress
cap can cant do 60 mph .is under 60mph his max with all effort is most likely 60mph not over
how fast woudl that make spidey.........umm.......100mph+ i mean think about it spidey's 15 times greater(even though i read he is 40 times greater) than an average human assume normal human speed is 10mph (thats still low) spidey can breeze 100mph if he ran full speed at cap at punched him .......KO/dead no hospital involved
and what do you mean he his punches are not hitting 20tons how do you know that ...you dont need to knwo martail arts to hit your maxiumum benching ability,
jus cause he will not use his full strength does not mean he is incapable unless writers have him will lower his strength to the point where he as little advantage or equal strength to ensure he does not kill his opponent
I mean if I could understand your first few lines I would respond but I'll start with paragraph 3.
Yes Spidey is 15 times faster, but cap isnt normal, normal doesnt exist for cap, show me a man that runs the mile run in just under a minute then we can call cap normal. Heck, I dont even think some superhumans could do that.
Well for one, I box, and took kickboxing so.....I think I know how important technique is. I would take technique over strength any day of the week.
Damn I thought this was pretty nice, whats stopping cap from doing this to spidey up close.
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolvie2fu0.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolvie3rr4.jpg
no more webbing.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Well for one, I box, and took kickboxing so.....I think I know how important technique is. I would take technique over strength any day of the week.
Unless we are taking about a guy that can lift 20 tons then I'll take strength, not to mention speed to boot.
Spiderman could probably generate far greater then 20 tons of force and Cap would be dead on one hit.
Originally posted by Soleran
Unless we are taking about a guy that can lift 20 tons then I'll take strength, not to mention speed to boot.Spiderman could probably generate far greater then 20 tons of force and Cap would be dead on one hit.
See this is whats funny, people keep saying one-hit one-hit, how exaclty would spidey get that one-hit?
Whats he gonna do just run up on cap and hit him, I dont think so!!
Spidey is fast, he is real fast, faster that cap but not to the point where he is going to be doing what he wants. He isnt quicksilver.
Spidey even said himself ON PANEL that he was screwed if he stayed in close quaters with cap.
Originally posted by ankur29how fast woudl that make spidey.........umm.......100mph+ i mean think about it spidey's 15 times greater(even though i read he is 40 times greater) than an average human assume normal human speed is 10mph (thats still low) spidey can breeze 100mph if he ran full speed at cap at punched him .......KO/dead no hospital involved
Funny, I thought he was just 15 times more agile.
Peter can cling to most surfaces, has superhuman strength and is roughly 15 times more agile than a regular human. He previously was able to lift 15 tons, but his current strength level after his rebirth has yet to be determined
Originally posted by Apolloknight
See this is whats funny, people keep saying one-hit one-hit, how exaclty would spidey get that one-hit?Whats he gonna do just run up on cap and hit him, I dont think so!!
Spidey is fast, he is real fast, faster that cap but not to the point where he is going to be doing what he wants. He isnt quicksilver.
Spidey even said himself [b]ON PANEL
that he was screwed if he stayed in close quaters with cap. [/B]
SO WHAT on the forum I have the luxury of saying that Spiderman regardless of his comics has the ability to kill Captain in one hit.
The likely hood of CA surviving a full on Spiderman is about nil. I can tell you that since you are a boxer/kickboxer you should know that strength and conditioning plays a HUGE factor in who wins a fight. Spiderman is so far above CA in his physical abilities that his skill will not make up the difference.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
See this is whats funny, people keep saying one-hit one-hit, how exaclty would spidey get that one-hit?
Strange.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Spidey even said himself [b]ON PANEL that he was screwed if he stayed in close quaters with cap. [/B]
Spidey wins this, but not because of his superior strength or speed. He wins it due to his webbing advantage. If this were simply a close-quarters match between Captain America and Spiderman (no webbing) I think Cap could very well take a majority - just like Wolverine could. Spiderman beats them both sheerly due to a long range advantage that neither of them can (permanently) counter. They can dodge plenty of webbing, but not all of it.
Spiderman, 7/10.
Originally posted by Soleran
[b]Spiderman is so far above CA in his physical abilities that his skill will not make up the difference.
See, the thing is, people always attribute to Cap a normal-human level of skill, when that simply isn't the case. Spiderman admits himself that Steve has such a skill advantage, that Peter would never close the gap in CENTURIES. We can argue all day about whether Captain America's physique is Super-human (Show me a one minute mile, or someone tossing eight hundred plus pounds in the air with no effort), but the one thing that is MOST DEFINITELY super-human about Captain America is his Skill. As Alfheim made reference to before, 'normal' humans can have Superhuman talents. Magic? Technological Genius? Martial Arts ability?
These Superhuman talents often close the gap between that 'normal' human and the true Superhumans. The thing is, Captain America isn't a two-bit boxer. No. He isn't even the World open-weight champion. No. Captain America is truly super-human in regard to his skill. Three punches, and he made half of parker's body go numb. Three punches! On someone of superhuman durability!
Meh, go ahead, scream your cries of "PIS!" if you please, but a showing like that isn't out of the norm for Steve. Spiderman may outclass him in the physical department, but Captain America's skill, combined with the fact that he has extensively studied parker, really makes Pete's physical superiority a moot point.
Originally posted by Soljer
See, the thing is, people always attribute to Cap a normal-human level of skill, when that simply isn't the case. Spiderman admits himself that Steve has such a skill advantage, that Peter would never close the gap in CENTURIES. We can argue all day about whether Captain America's physique is Super-human (Show me a one minute mile, or someone tossing eight hundred plus pounds in the air with no effort), but the one thing that is MOST DEFINITELY super-human about Captain America is his Skill. As Alfheim made reference to before, 'normal' humans can have Superhuman talents. Magic? Technological Genius? Martial Arts ability?These Superhuman talents often close the gap between that 'normal' human and the true Superhumans. The thing is, Captain America isn't a two-bit boxer. No. He isn't even the World open-weight champion. No. Captain America is truly super-human in regard to his skill. Three punches, and he made half of parker's body go numb. Three punches! On someone of superhuman durability!
Meh, go ahead, scream your cries of "PIS!" if you please, but a showing like that isn't out of the norm for Steve. Spiderman may outclass him in the physical department, but Captain America's skill, combined with the fact that he has extensively studied parker, really makes Pete's physical superiority a moot point.
And at the end, Spider-Man learned from his mistakes and started with a different approach. It worked.
Originally posted by Soljer
These Superhuman talents often close the gap between that 'normal' human and the true Superhumans. The thing is, Captain America isn't a two-bit boxer. No. He isn't even the World open-weight champion. No. Captain America is truly super-human in regard to his skill. Three punches, and he made half of parker's body go numb. Three punches! On someone of superhuman durability!Meh, go ahead, scream your cries of "PIS!" if you please, but a showing like that isn't out of the norm for Steve. Spiderman may outclass him in the physical department, but Captain America's skill, combined with the fact that he has extensively studied parker, really makes Pete's physical superiority a moot point.
Once again let me say that using forum rules Parker isn't going to hold back and the force he can generate would cripple CA in a forum fight. CA wins in comics because he's CA but on this forum and using forum rules Spiderman destroys CA. The minute Spiderman puts one hand on CA he's dead or at least he's going to be crippled.
Let me check again we have spidersense, strength (20 tons) and speed, this fight is so in the bag for Spiderman.
This is why I cant debate with you.....
What crtiteria are you using to judge what characters can do?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And it isn't about what people can do in the real world. It's about what characters can do given their powersets in the comic book world.
Oh I see so you're not using the real world, you you're using the powerset in the comic book world.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
All the best martial artists in the real world die when hit by someone whose 20 times stronger than them.
Whoa....I thought you weren't using the real world.....Oh I see so now you are.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There's no contradiction
Hmmm....some one cannot read their own posts.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Qu’ils mangent de la brioche... i.e. I don't give a shit. This thread no longer amuses my hedonism.
Get the **** out and dont come back until you can sort yourself out.
Originally posted by marvelprince
How is it crap if its been stated and proven time and time again. Everyone and their grandmothers know that in battle Spider-Man always holds back. Just cause it hurts your case does not make it crap.
That does not explain everything.
Originally posted by marvelprince
I was refering to strength and speed. I don't think I've ever disputed that webbing can't be dodged by humans
Ok
Originally posted by marvelprince
Did I ever mention that the troll was holding back? No so how is this even relevant
Because....The Troll was probably stronger than Spiderman it came from a similar dimension to the Asagardians. It would not have pulled its punches when it hit Shang Chi. If Shang chi can take a punch from some one stronger than Spiderman....do the math...
Originally posted by marvelprince
And now are we conveniently forgetting all the times these humans have not been able to handles beatings from humans?
No. I just want you to explain to me how humans on a regular basis take beatings from superhuman villains who are not holding back...c'mon explain to me.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Right, that makes sense. Its like saying since Shaq makes free throw shots on occasion that he's a free throw shooter.
Huh? Ok nevermind.....I just want you to explain to me how humans on a regular basis take beatings from superhuman villains who are not holding back...c'mon explain to me.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Everything else aside. How can Spider-Man not beat Cap. If SPider-man is not holding back and punches Cap in the face how does Cap survive that? Or is Spider-Man not fast enough to land a blow
I just want you to explain to me how humans on a regular basis take beatings from superhuman villains who are not holding back...c'mon explain to me.
Originally posted by Soleran
CA wins in comics because he's CA but on this forum and using forum rules Spiderman destroys CA.
So Shang Chi wins because he's Shang Chi? So Taskmaster wins because he's Taskmaster.
On this forum how do we decide what characters are capable of? The comics.
Originally posted by Soleran
[b]SO WHAT on the forum I have the luxury of saying that Spiderman regardless of his comics has the ability to kill Captain in one hit.The likely hood of CA surviving a full on Spiderman is about nil. I can tell you that since you are a boxer/kickboxer you should know that strength and conditioning plays a HUGE factor in who wins a fight. Spiderman is so far above CA in his physical abilities that his skill will not make up the difference. [/B]
Oh wow, its nice that you can say that, again, Spidey going toe to toe with cap=defeat 6-7/10 of spiderman.
Are you going to just ignore the fact that SPIDEY HIMSELF SAID HE COULDNT HANDLE CAP UP CLOSE, your just going to ignore that right?
Yes conditioning is important, but at the same time, I see people get dropped at least once a weak by people who are no where near the physical beast of some the the guys I train with. They get beat by pure intellegence and skill alone.
Im sorry Great Skill will always be a match for Great Physical Attributes. Believe it or not if you want to but its the truth. There is no other way to put it, I cant make it any clearer for you, its up to you to believe it or not.
This is delved into question whether or nor Cap is superhuman. I don't see whats so hard to understand here. Of course normal humans can't hope to achieve Cap-like feats. The same goes for Daredevil or Shang, they do things real world humans can't do. But the point is the in the MU their version of real world human is different than ours. A normal human in the real world, through enough training etc, can get to the point where they can snag bullets out of the air and run a mile in a minute. The fact that they can do these things does not them superhuman, all it means is that in the MU the bar for human potential is set a little higher than it is in the real world. So for all of Cap's feats, and yes even Iron Man and Doc Strange, they are still just human beings only with exaggerated abilities of whats found in the real world.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Are you going to just ignore the fact that [b]SPIDEY HIMSELF SAID HE COULDNT HANDLE CAP UP CLOSE, your just going to ignore that right?[/B]
😆 😆 😆 😆
You know what I mean? How can you make it any more clearer?
Originally posted by marvelprince
So for all of Cap's feats, and yes even Iron Man and Doc Strange, they are still just human beings only with exaggerated abilities of whats found in the real world.
Yeah but wether you like it or not their talents enable them to hang with superhumans. It may suck, but thats just the way its going down.
Originally posted by marvelprince
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. Because someone utilizes the abilities they have does not equate to a lose again some dude who trained
Really now? Ask spidey if he can hanlde Taskmaster, Black Panther, Captian America or any other top tier Street leveler in H2H.
Because even he will tell you ON PANEL that he cant. 😉
Are you going to just ignore the fact that SPIDEY HIMSELF SAID HE COULDNT HANDLE CAP UP CLOSE, your just going to ignore that right?
Yeah given how the forum works and how the rules work on the forum, yes I am ignoring it. Spiderman is so far above CA it's just stupid to even put them in a ring together.
Yes conditioning is important, but at the same time, I see people get dropped at least once a weak by people who are no where near the physical beast of some the the guys I train with. They get beat by pure intellegence and skill alone.
And yet none of those guys are ANYWHERE near CA's limits let alone SM's! A normal human can break ribs and jaws with punching power now give them Spiderman's powers and its sick. Spiderman's grip could crush CA as well.
Im sorry Great Skill will always be a match for Great Physical Attributes. Believe it or not if you want to but its the truth. There is no other way to put it, I cant make it any clearer for you, its up to you to believe it or not.
Great skill is important but lets call CA a mouse and SM an elephant I don't care what skill the mouse has in a fight its dead, same comparison with CA vs Spiderman. I cannot make it clearer for you its just that obvious.
