Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok lets make one thing clear, when I say handbook I do not neccesarily mean it has to be only the Marvel Universe handbook, it could be a source on the web as well.
So then you mean bio's? Well there has to be caution and judgement when using those, I simply meant more along the lines of character statistics if that makes any sense. If I were to take these characters and write everything down on paper, who would look better, I would analyze, judge, and conclude these points against whoever I'm debating against.
QUOTE=7108673]Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I
On Cap:
Rogers in the regular Marvel Universe has no superhuman powers, although as a result of the Super-Soldier serum, he is transformed from a frail young man into a "nearly perfect" specimen of human development and conditioning. Captain America is as intelligent, strong, fast, agile, and durable as it is possible for a human being to be without being considered superhuman. The formula enhances all of his metabolic functions and prevents the build-up of fatigue poisons in his muscles, giving him endurance far in excess of an ordinary human being. This accounts for many of his extraordinary feats, including running a mile in a little more than a minute (Captain America 65th Anniversary Special). Rogers is also unable to become intoxicated by alcohol and is immune to many diseases.
Mentally, Rogers' battle experience and training make him an expert tactician and an excellent field commander, with his teammates frequently deferring to his orders in battle. Rogers's reflexes and senses are also extraordinarily keen. He is a master of boxing, jiu jitsu, and judo, combined with his virtually superhuman gymnastic ability into his own unique fighting style with advanced pressure-point fighting. Years of practice with his indestructible shield make it practically an extension of his own body, and he is able to aim and throw it with almost unerring accuracy and even ricochet the shield to hit multiple targets. He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his. In the comics, he is regarded by other skilled fighters as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe (Captain America #302 and #375, among others).
Rogers has vast U.S. military knowledge and is often shown to be familiar with ongoing, highly-classified Defense Department operations. Despite his high profile as one of the world's most popular and recognizable superheroes, Rogers also has a broad understanding of the espionage community, largely through his ongoing relationship with S.H.I.E.L.D.. He occasionally makes forays into mundane career fields, including commercial arts, education (high school history) and law enforcement.
Captain America is revered by most of the superheroes in the Marvel Universe, filling the "leadership" role which Superman takes on in DC Comics. He is considered a living legend, and many characters [b](particuarly Spider-Man) idolize him. [/B][/QUOTE] I see some key elements in there.
1. He is the pinnacle of what a human can be.
2. Spiderman Idolizes him.
Originally posted by Alfheim
What was annoying me as well is that you were saying that Cap is only slightly faster than an Olympic athelete, when the fact of the matter is that when they refer to this they say he is above, but they do not elaborate on how much.
Well the pinnacle of what a human can be is usually judged around olympic level, anything beyond that is considered around superhuman level anyways. Lifting would be around 800, running would most likely be at around 35 mph. Which is why him running slightly slower than he throws his shield is crap. Unless it was in a dire situation, in which case he would do a superhuman feat even better than a normal human feat, since he is simply a step away from being a mild superhuman. Does that make sense? It isn't difficult for him to do anything superhuman for hte most part, he is just a peak human and therefore his gap from a Superhuman-level character like Spiderman is simply much greater.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Therefore you cannot draw the conclusion that he is only slightly above an Olympic athelete looking at his feats in the comics we can see he is far above an athelete.
Again we have to be careful with the suspension of disbelief here, comics will amp the levels, but the Superhumans are amped as well. Bullets job, heroes save the day and do amazing things, that is well and fine, but in this forum he is still on a human level regardless.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is a first. Alot of people here do not take the Marvel Handbook as a serious source of information because the comic book world contradicts it consistently.
Like I said again I was talking about official stats more or less. Secondly comic books contradict themselves all the time, which is why I use discretion in those and use something more solid. If Wolverine is getting knocked out by DD, but is standing up to Namor in the same *month*, then something is very wrong there.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Not just with CA but lots of other super heroes such as The Thing and Namor.
Those are more or less outdated, however they don't exceed the suspension of disbelief that I mentioned earlier.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok this is bang out of order. Those are the rules. Superman has super senses but Batman can creep up on him. What can we deduce from this?
If Superman has senses so great that he can hear pin's drop EXTRAORDINARY distances away, and Batman sneaks up on him, then it is PIS. Simple. Consistency is not contingent upon PIS.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Humans who have skills can sometimes use it to overcome super powers.
I agree, but it only goes so far. I hope you realize the difference between Batman and Superman is well, Super.
Originally posted by Alfheim
If it happens frequently then this is an indication it can be done.
Not necessarily in the comic versus forum, otherwise Flash should be hit by boomerangs in that case. Comics are meant to sell, these are writers, not doctors or even mathmeticians for that matter.
Originally posted by Alfheim
If its's PIS why didn't they put it in the PIS section?
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
The examples are endless, it would seriously go on forever.