well truth be todl i dont think theres any feat taht does that ........
im quite bulky and weigh 11 stones at 5ft7
im 15 and can do 15mph and a lot of people who are thinner can barely outrun me which is disgraceful for them , i am not at all agilke i play rugby and teh way i play i dont dodge i run into ppl and thats literally what im on teh team for ,the ppl who are faster than me are more agile and decide to duck dodge and all that , naturally if some is fsater tehy are more agile and vice versa ...this is a reason why spidey should be able to do 100mph comapared to cap thats not even twice his full speed
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Well, think about it. Hulk can run in upwards of 300 mph because of his super-strong leg muscles.Well, Spider-Man also has super-strong leg muscles. Why is absurd to believe he can run up to 100 mph? As strong as he is and as little as he weighs, this feat should be pretty easy to accomplish.
Sorry thats unacceptable and you know it.
Colossus
Thing
Juggernaut
Luke Cage
I think you get the point....
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Also, is their anyone else who thinks spidey can run 100+mph? If so can someone prove it instead of just using speculation, I wont have a problem accepting it if you can prove it!!!
to be honest I don't see why he couldn't... wolverine can run faster than the human eye can trace. cap runs at a solid 60 miles an hour. nuke tops out at a running speed of 700 miles per hour and NONE of these guys are physically on the level that spiderman currently is... I mean spiderman is able to jump around at speeds fast enough to keep up with speeding cars and jumping isn't nearly as effecient as running... it may be speculation but it's based off of pretty clear cut evidence.
Originally posted by jinzin
to be honest I don't see why he couldn't... wolverine can run faster than the human eye can trace. cap runs at a solid 60 miles an hour. nuke tops out at a running speed of 700 miles per hour and NONE of these guys are physically on the level that spiderman currently is... I mean spiderman is able to jump around at speeds fast enough to keep up with speeding cars and jumping isn't nearly as effecient as running... it may be speculation but it's based off of pretty clear cut evidence.
I don't know Kangaroos can hit 45 miles per hour and they seem to jump alot🙂
Originally posted by jinzin
like cap consistently taking it to spidey or to characters of spiderman calibur???
purely on logic and reason.. spidey doesn't turn into spiderman from a radioactive spiderman bit.. he gets cancer.. or sick... or dies...
no.. the rules say no pis.. but pis is subjective.. what you think is good someone else may not... and cis IS NOT excempt from these debates unless otherwise stated... 😬
spiderman is ONE level above cap in speed..
Whatever.
Everybody who reads Spider-Man and knows the character, knows that Spider-Man always almost holds back. That is a fact. It's not up for debate. Anybody who disagrees with this, should leave this forum and never come back.
In this thread however, we use a Spider-Man fighting at the best of his abilities. Blood lust is on too. This means one dead super soldier. Sorry Steve.
Originally posted by who?-kid
Or Spider-Man completely destroying characters who are ten times more dangerous / stronger / faster / more durable than Captain America ever will be ? Hmm ?
or cap decimating characters that are 10 times faster and stronger than spiderman.. pffft...
Originally posted by who?-kid
And Captain America would have drowned or suffocated when he was still a small iceberg.
Originally posted by who?-kid
How about common sense ?
irrelivent to comics for precisely these kinds of reasons...
😕
Originally posted by who?-kid
And Captain America would have drowned or suffocated when he was still a small iceberg.
Originally posted by who?-kidblood lust is on.. but CIS is too... that's that.
Everybody who reads Spider-Man and knows the character, knows that Spider-Man always almost holds back. That is a fact. It's not up for debate. Anybody who disagrees with this, should leave this forum and never come back.In this thread however, we use a Spider-Man fighting at the best of his abilities. Blood lust is on too. This means one dead super soldier. Sorry Steve.
Originally posted by jinzin
which is why direct comparisons are important... the two characters get together nd build consistency off of one another.. spiderman consistently has problems with cap.. therefore cap gives spiderman problems.... cap's abilities don't fluctuate anymore than any other comic book character.
Internal logic/consistency is not about creating balance, but also about keeping. Cap may have consistently given Spiderman trouble, but that doesn't mean it is consistent in every way. Not every character fares so badly against Captain. And some do much worse. The point is that it takes more than just Cap beating on Spiderman to prove the MU consistent. Writers sometimes choose to follow the rules and sometimes ignore them. That goes for everybody, but it makes comic standards unreliable.
And it's not even a real standard. It's just something that he does without back up.
so ligically it can't happen.
Why not? the MU is consistent in the presence of the supernatural. There is no handbook that tells you that the MU is bereft of supernatural forces, only to be proved wrong by the comics themselves. Also, it's not as if supernatural/crazy stuff(like the spider bite) comes and goes like its nothing. It's consistently present.
But even if you refuse to accept the origins, it still means that Marvel must be consistent about what it establishes. Since that is nearly impossible, we don't use the comics as pure evidence alone.
EXACTLY.... so you DO understand the point but you don't want to accept it's consequences? hmmmm.so your appeal to logic was for nothing since the only logic that works is this "internal logic" or comic logic.... thank you for conceding.
Eh....You're missing the point. Read carefully.
not really.. it's contradictory.. for instance.. the characters that can use bloodlust are to be bloodlusted in fights... this means characters like venom, wolverine, taskmaster.. they can be bloodlusted all they want cause they don't have a problem killing people.. but CIS isn't exempt from these debates... so if a character CAN be in bloodlust but it conflicts with their character's principles.. then they most likely won't be.. besides.. a bloodlusted spidey is basically a punching bag for gifted fighters.. daredevil proved that.
You don't understand the concept of bloodlust. It doesn't just mean "lusting for blood", it also means fighting to the best of the character's abilities.
Bloodlust is automatically on for every character, unless stated otherwise. That means Spiderman will be doing everything he can to finish the fight as quickly as possible. For some characters, K.O is enough, for others it must mean death. Of course, Spiderman's conscious will be discussed, but in the end every possible road to victory will be counted. I mean, you saw it yourself, when someone mentioned how Spidey could just splatter Cap all over the place(hyperbole) with a class 20 punch.
actually it IS EXTREMELY subjective in this case.... otherwise we wouldn't be discussing the semantics of what counts in these threads and what doesn't.... 😬
But yes I agree cap would lose more often than not.. I DO however think he could secure 3 wins at best.
Fair enough........But I strongly disagree 😠
not really.. after all ghost rider and demonic hobgoblin are a level above spidey... spidey's still able to tag them like crazy...
Hold up, what kind of speed are we talking about? I mean, yeah, Ghostrider can use his cycle to attain great speeds. Demogoblin can use his glider. Without them, both would a lot slower. Sure they are inherent, but they don't make for a good comparison. I mean, we're talking running speed and combat speed here.
I'm not denying that spidey has his own fighting style.. but it's not a honed and tempered one.. which is why gifted streeters give him fits... I'm not denying he has experience.. but his experience is "meat and potatoes" fighting.. not formal training... there's a reasons why spiderman conceded that cap know more about h2h then he would ever learn in 100 years...
We went over this a couple of pages back. I have good reason to believe that Cap should never be able to best Spiderman in H2H. I can't be bothered to explain myself again, but I'm gonna let that rest.
I will say this, though. A good deal of versatility + superhuman powers should be enough to compensate for a lack of human fighting skills. This is another one of those things that makes people scream PIS. I can see the reasoning behind it, Soljer already made it clear. But it's fallacious reasoning.
like soljer said.. caps been shown to be able to go toe to toe with too many characters at spidey's level and do fine to deny that he's around the same level as spidey.it is irrelivent.. you didn't make a decent point using that feat... and this thread isn't about either character anyways.
I would accept that, had Marvel not been so damn inconsistent. I used Hulk vs. Gladiator to illustrate that Gladiator sometimes scales down(jobbing) to less versatile characters. This alone proofs that internal logic is impossible to uphold in the comic world. I can't blame them, but it does make it harder to accept as evidence.
which is also irrelivent since that was due to the fact that wolverine was already messed which was even stated ON PANAL.. and again consistency.. one occasion does not denote a dozen other occasions where logan tears it up with thing or people on things level.
He was messed up by Ben himself. Anyway, it's not just one occasion for one character. You're gonna have to factor in countless of connections.
juggernaught punches holes in demensional fabric.. he clobbered thing in 3 hits... juggernaughts on an entirely different level than most bricks.. bad example.. also.. only based off of ONE example.. again.. one example doesn't denote CONSISTANT examples.. i you want to use wolverine and play the brick game I've got over a dozen examples off the top of my head where logan does just fine with them.it doesn't have to be for arguments sake it is consistant.... 😕
reason is again contingent on logic.. comic book logic says it's reasonable.. my personal opinion on the matter is irrelivent.
No, Juggernaut is a fine example. And Juggernaut can't punch holes in the dimensional fabric, that was when he was possessed by Trion. I obviously wasn't talking about THAT version of Juggernaut.
Again, the inconsistency is also in the characters abilities and how they measure up to powerhouses. But even still, this proves my point that he, like Captain, scales up and down. Inconsistency. Wolverine has poor showings against powerful beings, high showings against powerful beings, poor showings against weaker beings and high showings against weaker beings. Not all of it is PIS, Of course, but a lot of it is. One way or the other. And then to think that at least HALF of these problems can be solved by making them straight up supernatural.
Originally posted by AlfheimWell the problem is that this IS a theoretical debate, so everything is going of what would most likely happen, practicality would not be what has technically happened in the comics 100%, simply because the said comics don't have the forum modifiers, so the comic alone would not be a 100% effective piece of evidence, unless it is proving a certain ability or something, not a fight however. You've already established that Spiderman was fighting dumb, so that takes a part in the final outcome in the theory, and thus the practicality of your own argument.
Fair enough, but in the real world you have theory and practical. Theory does not always work out the way its supposed to on paper, thats why you have practical. As you probably know practical is application of theory. So I agree with you but we can't completely ignore the scans. To be quite honest though it is really tricky, I mean if the comic books consistently contradict the bios and handbooks I would go with the comic.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yesss but I kinda get the impression that he was far above the olympic standard. In the MU there is a massive gap between superhuman and olympic therefore you could plonk Cap just outside the superhuman standard, but because he is on the border sometimes he does do superhuman feats. Also there have been studies of what people like the Tibetan Monks can do, which is beyond the olympic standard. Yeah I know Cap is not a tibetan monk im just saying that even in the real world olympic is not the highest standard.
Fair enough, I'm not talking about feats though.
I'm saying things like strength, speed, agility.
Cap is about the limit of, (or slightly more) of an Olympic level athlete in those categories. I've already explained his running feat being a combination of his inability to fatigue and it being feasable in a dire situation, but not on normal circumstances.
Originally posted by AlfheimWhat like Champion, or Gladiator? Green Lantern has his own skills... Spiderman has tons of skills and potential for that matter. His mind works extremely fast, and his body is so flexible, he can do tons of flips in the air. You let him do a full-power jump, and see where he would land. It would be quite far. These are all skills, an application of something is a skill, so by your meaning any superhuman could apply their set skills at a much better rate than a mere peak human more often than not.
Yes but you have to bare in mind that superhumans do not have extrodinary skills.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Peak human + skill in MU = Superhuman.
To an extent yes, and that's still putting it mildly. The problem comes in that peak humans do alot (and I do mean ALOT) of things they shouldn't do. But when they come here with their powers and no prep or anything, their shortcomings become quickly apparent.
Originally posted by AlfheimLook at my post the 2 points prior, anything applied is a skill. Shooting webbing is a skill, and should not be neglected because it is unorthodox. Spiderman's style is a skill and he utilizes his powers for it, you don't need 1,000,000 styles in fighting, you need principle, and common sense. It's always cool to see our favorite characters match it up, but it's just to keep in mind that, in theory, (with the forum modifiers), things are quite different.
Thats why I belive that humans can hang with superhumans to an extent. they are just outside the superhuman range plus their skills get amped.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok fair enough since you put it that way, I agree. In principle though it implies weaker characters such as humans if they beat certain superhumans consistently in the comics these victories can be used as evidence.
Consistency is not contingent with PIS, what that means is that Flash can constantly get hit by a boomerang time and time again, but it has no hold inside of this forum alone.
I have no problem with these characters beating superhumans if it falls into the suspension of disbelief mentioned earlier.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but not just with Cap..
He has plenty of examples of his jobber aura working for him, he has alot of the "because he just can" working for him in the forums as well, which as an argument does not work without feasible practicality to back them up.
Originally posted by AlfheimI put that in a size four for everyone to see. You do establish that Spiderman was fighting less than the best of his capabilities, something that should be excluded from practicality within the versus forum rules.
Well he's not using his head. He should put on stealth mode and then fight because that will make him more difficult to see.
But, you have to remember that what you mentioned is PIS not CIS, PIS is exempt from debates, CIS (Spiderman's not killing, because he just won't) isn't, unless stated otherwise.
Originally posted by AlfheimI agree that Spiderman isn't a heavyweight as well, and that quite a few heroes can give him a hard time/beat him, simply because he holds back. That's mostly exempt from the forums, and most of the examples invade the rules more often than not.
Well first of all some of these characters he fights are not popular, for example The Enforcers. Im sorry Spiderman is not a heavy weight, so for me it is believable that he can be beaten by street levelers if it happens over and over again.
Originally posted by AlfheimThat is fine with the Hulk, however keep in mind that slower and much weaker characters have even stood up to the Hulk for some time, when they really should have been obliterated. Cap has even taken hits from him, as DD. Shouldn't happen.
Like I said that does not happen to the Hulk, because it is an established fact in the Mu street levelers can hang with people on Spiderman's level. I think to an extent you have to use the rules of the MU.
Originally posted by AlfheimThat's believeable if it's just a man, hell people do that all of the time, even I have almost done it once or twice.
Well Cap has dislocated a guys shoulder just by touching it...well something like that.
Originally posted by AlfheimAnd speed, and agility, and most importantly a warning system. It's how he dodges lightning, lightning moves so fast that is duration is very short, so he's already in reality moved before the lightning has even formed, just because of the timer latency in-between it.
Well to an extent Spiderman will be amped in the sense that he sould not be able to dodge lasers with 15x human reflexes.
Same thing with a laser, his system tells him where the attack is coming from, but not what it is. 15x human reflexes is ALOT. Reflexes are almost instant. I have great reflexes. Multiply that by 15 and that's incredible, 15x or more speed (keep in mind that the stronger a muscle is in a body, that the faster it moves), and he can dodge what would be impossible for others rather easily.
Originally posted by AlfheimAgain, to an extent. They won't be sustaining very fast punches with the power to bend cannons and smash concrete though. The surface area, velocity, and power, going into the contour face is enough of it's own. It's a bit silly to say that MA's would protect from a 40,000 pound punch and a starting velocity of 300-400 mph within the first second.
What I disagree with is this, humans compensate for their lack of powers with skills. Martial arts can teach you how to sustain damage and since Cap's skills get amped that could help. This is why Spiderman has powers and Cap is a martial arts expert.
Originally posted by jinzinOk, some of this is just getting out of hand, this is where you and I disagree at, and always will, but what characters are written to do simply doesn't cut it alone. I write novels and comics, and I could write my dick to take over the universe and multiple galaxies, just a normal dick. Would that happen? Most likely not in a theoretical debate (but then again...). Sorry for the image, but it was needed. Furthermore I have a problem with your judgement, I could quote you several times over the time I've known you saying that Spiderman beats Cap alone, (classic), simply because of his webs, and you gave that an 8/10, now you've seemed to change that once again.
or cap decimating characters that are 10 times faster and stronger than spiderman.. pffft...
Originally posted by Soljer
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?f2c9889c23.jpghttp://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?fd96c32deb.jpg
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?1025084a04.jpg
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?c3126b560f.jpg
After actually looking at these scans - I can admit it's still CIS but at least the writer made it plausible for us to believe Cap hit him several times before Spidey scored a hit. It was still almost dead even. The problem is we know Spidey is gonna hold back regardless so that renders it moot in the first place. Bloodlusted Spidey would have none of that.
Originally posted by jinzin🤨 Decimating? Class100s and/or superspeed? You can't be serious. What when he once hit Quicksilver with his shield? Or when he once somehow hurt Korvac with a punch? When he fought a mind-controlled Namor and won via iirc plot device?
or cap decimating characters that are 10 times faster and stronger than spiderman.. pffft...
"He's Captain America. He'll find a way." 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
again.. the evidence THAT EXISTS doesn't count.. 🙄 pffft...
So no then? Thats all you had to say
Originally posted by jinzin
not until it's applied and PROVEN effective to the point of HAVING an upperhand.. otherwise it's just speculation...
spidey SURPRISED cap.. he even says cap wasn't ready for that... okay he got one SCRATCH off a surprise tactic... does that mean cap can't adapt and overcome? no.. doesn't mean he could either.. but all the same.. it was hardly an upperhand.
Wtf? Thats a ricidulous argument. You can potentially use that same arguement in reference to any other fight thats not conclusive. So Spider-Man surprised Cap? How does that diminish Spider-man's upperhand? Cap may have been able to adapt, but at this time Spider-Man is actually using some of his costume's enhancments and Cap doesn't even have a shield which is a big part of his style
Originally posted by jinzin
ahh well... spidey could probably do that... but I don't see it happening a majority of the time.
I guess its agree to disagree here
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Sorry thats unacceptable and you know it.Colossus
Thing
Juggernaut
Luke CageI think you get the point....
Err...dunno where you're getting your logic from, dude. But it's quite acceptable.
All four of the characters you named can all run super-fast. So really, you just proved my point.
Originally posted by jinzin
blood lust is on.. but CIS is too... that's that.
And you also agree that in THIS thread, blood lust is on ? And that they fight at the best of their abilities ?
Iron Spider-Man can knock down the Hulk. Classic Spider-Man did it - yeah I know, crap writing, I agree, but when you consider crap writing as a fine example (I'm referring to the last CA-SM fight in ASM, which was horrible writing but you don't seem to mind it) I can do that too of course.
Fair is fair 😉
So based on their stats and on the enemies they have defeated, Spider-Man wins. Pretty easily too by the way.
Im a bit bogged down at the moment but some one made a very good point. We are concerned about Cap taking a punch from someone who can lift 20 tons or 10-15, when on this forum we have some one who was bitten by a radioactive spider and did not die. We also have a character on this forum who was hit by a nuclear bomb and did not die either.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Im a bit bogged down at the moment but some one made a very good point. We are concerned about Cap taking a punch from someone who can lift 20 tons or 10-15, when on this forum we have some one who was bitten by a radioactive spider and did not die. We also have a character on this forum who was hit by a nuclear bomb and did not die either.
Wow. Way to completely distort everything. This is not a personal barb, just something I've noticed in general, that this argument is used by persons trying to justify an unsubstantial claim an hence they fall back on "well none of this is REALLY possbile so whats the point?" Well the point is that in these forums there is a certain amount of belief that must be suspended. In terms of powers and abilities we believe that yes someone can shoot blasts out of their eyes, fly, stick to walls etc. However everything is still grounded by a certain set of rules. General rules of physics still apply. So Cyclops can shoot optic blasts, but can't burn something with those blasts cause thats not included in the scope of his powers. He still has normal human abilities also so aside from the fact that red beams come from his eyes everything that he can do is grounded in realism. With Cap, looking at the scope of his powers and way he's been CONSISTENTLY (very keyword there) been shown since his inception when can pretty accurately acertain what is within his limits to accomplish. Part of Captain's America's powers does not include invunerability. The ability to survive a 20 ton punch is outside the realm of Cap's accepted powers and hence it is impossible. It is also impossible in the real world as is surviving in an iceberg for years but its also impossible in the comic world. In comic world, looking at Cap's accepted abilities, its impossible for him to survive a 20 ton punch.
