Originally posted by jinzin
evidence makes a standard of evidence.. all the evidence that comapares the two characters means that cap can give spidey fits, your rationalizations mean nothing here... evidence is all that matters.
My rationalizations are needed. I mean, Flash would have trouble beating half the Marvel/DC Universe if we were to adapt comic book logic, jobbing, PIS and physics.
you can't appeal to a strict format of logic and then appeal to the supernatural... otherwise there might be supernatural forces that will never allow spider man to beat cap.. and since I can't prove a negative.. it's up to you to prove that this specualtion exists... if it doesn't.. then it's less credible than feats..
What? The supernatural in the Marvel World is a given. But that doesn't mean it's exempt from consistency and logic. The logic I'm appealing to is relative.
not alone.. no.. not what I said.. but they DO set up a standard and they ARE in cap's favor...
I can accept that. But it doesn't make sense. The feats performed in the books are often the main reason for debate. That's why people put Hulk against the likes of Superman. Why did Superman job to him? Why didn't he just toss him into space? Etc. Same thing with Spidey and Cap. People want to know, so that tells me that feats aren't entirely air tight.
But I agree, so far Cap has owned spider man in most of their fights. But how usable is that in a fight? There are several arguments that could debunk it. Like the fact Cap had trouble with Wolverine who has been beaten badly by Hulk who has been defeated by spider man who has been owned by Captain who...
Going by all this, it becomes nearly impossible to tell who can beat who. THAT's why we go by standard abilities. And that's why bloodlust is on and plot is off.
no I'm not.. you are.. you can't have your cake and eat it too... which is what you keep trying to do here.
No.
sure I do... I've got a better conception of the rule than most.. spidey can fight at the best of his abilities.. so far that hasn't proven to be too much for cap to handle..
First of all, he hasn't fought to the best of his abilities. Powered characters ALMOST never do when proceedings are wrapped in a scripted plot. Second, Spidey holds back ALL THE FRIGGIN' TIME. He's not going to punch Captain with all his might. He's not even going to try. And then there's the PIS factor. Spidey didn't use his most valuable new aspect of the suit: invisibility. So are you telling me Spidey fought to the best of his abilities? Hell no.
CIS is on too so that just made everyhing you said irrelivent.
No, the bloodlust makes the CIS irrelevant. spider man holding back isn't CIS btw, because it's not stupidity. spider man clowning around like a monkey tard, making bad jokes and consequently getting his ass kicked counts as CIS. Because this suits the character. But bloodlust prevents stuff like this. Have you ever seen a spider man debate where people said he couldn't win because he would start acting like a tard at one point? No, you haven't.
combative speeds obviously...
Well, then you should know that neither are capable of matching spider man. Although Demogoblin comes closer.
they do compensate but they DO NOT overcompensate... not when they're compared to the calibur of guys like cap...
Superhuman, unpredictable fighting without the usual boundaries >>> human combat. For every dropkick Captain can perform, spider man can do a better one + added somersaults and swing punches, all without the need of excessive practice. Oh those damn super powers!!!
no it doesn't because again it's a TERRRRRRIBLE example.. gladiator is a character who's powers fluctuate.. you can't use him because his powers are not at a constant level.. they drift.
Trust me, he was confident enough in that comic. He just jobbed to him. It doesn't matter if his powers fluctuate, he was powerful enough when he fought Hulk.
no he wasn't... he'd been dealing with a lot more than ben in the issues previous to that.
this is backed up by the fact that ben's failed to KO the guy on several occasions afterwards using full force blows.
But still, is that a reason to go flat by just one punch?
my point still stands he's NOT a fine example... he's 3 punched thing unconcious.. and again it's ONE example contradicted by the MAJORITY... akin: the MAJORITY of examples say cap gives spidey fits.
He's a fine example if we use your logic. Juggernaut had trouble with Savage Hulk, who's had trouble with Thing. What does that tell you? Nothing. Exactly. That's why we go by abilities, not by scenarios.
