Solving the Debate Of Jack/Liz

Originally posted by katelovespirate
PS Wikipedia def. seems to be rooting for Jack to get Liz. so much for non-biased. lol.

so you know everytime Jack touches Liz, there is this adorable shyness in the way he does it, balanced out with his flirtatiousness.
After, of course, the first scene where he rescues her. But even in that, he really isnt as touchy feely as he could have been in that awkward situation... he sort of smells her hair when she is putting his belt around him, and seems delighted just to look at her....
On the island, when he puts his arm around her (even though he is completely toasted) he doesnt just grab her aggressively, he sort of does it one finger at a time... carefully... sort of wondering how she will react, and wanting to savor the moment. And then, during the curiousity scene, once again he doesnt just grab her, he lightly carresses her face, slowely with the back of his hand... almost like he is afraid to touch her, he wants to so much, but he is trying to hold himself back...

and then the explosion of tension... the kiss.... notice his hands pretty much stay put.... Liz is the one holding on to him. He seems overwhelmed that he is in fact getting to know what it tastes like....

Its just funny because you'd imagine, with any other woman, he'd just grab her and have his way with her... but with Liz, there is this shyness that seems to take place. its so charming and interesting. 🙂

Of course, i could be imagining things.

I need to stop watching the Kiss scene. Everytime, without fail, heart palpatations. Its just such good movie-making. seriously. I love that. I love the music, the shots they get (i love how Gibbs blocks will's view) the fact that as much as we see of it, we don't see enough; we still feel we want to see WAY MORE.... just as Liz and Jack didnt really get as much as they wanted from each other either....

Thats very true! he seems to show a natural respect when it comes to Liz..sure he flirts..but even then you can see that it really gets to him and he tries to hold his excitement in, He doesn't want to scare her off by being very rough and forwards with her. It shows you that there is something different about Liz when it comes to Jack.

He's showing Liz that he can be quite gentle and soft too, especially in the curiosity Scene..I wonder if she picked up on that..I'm wondering if she thought he was going to just be rough and grab her..that might have been her real test there..and when he was being soft she allowed it to continue..Seriously he almost touched her lips..I bet any money if he was all rough with her there she would have yanked herself away she would be like "ha! typical, no way!"..Like when he was suggesting the marriage on the deck..he sort of came on too strong and she flinched and stepped backward..

Its like he wants to touch her..but he sees her as a delicate flower who he also doesn't want to harm...So being around Liz forces him to be a softer person..

I honestly cant imagine him sleeping with Liz and then being a real ******* to her..he might at first because he is in denial that he would be like that with a woman..but he may come to embrace it.

She also seems to spot the change in his demeanor in that scene, He suddenly turns a whole lot calmer and seems to look more serious...and funnily enough..its just before she starts to try and make him kiss her. Just seconds earlier and that wouldn't have happened..

Its actually as if her saying "I know you would never do anything to compromise my honor" didn't mean the actual KISS itself..it meant the WAY he kissed her..He treats her with respect in that scene, as if she was an honorable person... He doesn't jump into it, grab her and treat her like the average sl*t who crosses his path..

That would also make sense of the compass question she asks there. She randomly asks "why doesn't your compass work?" (what happened earlier) he says "My compass works fine" its after that she seems to think.."maybe he is what I want in a man..I'll test him to see if he will treat me differently to his sl*ts" When he obviously does..she seems quite shocked and also disappointed that she didn't get the kiss..If she was really proud of him she would have smiled at him..its not what she wanted..she wanted the kiss but not the pull away.

YAYAYAY!
i love ALL those points. you are so brilliant.! 🙂

AND that line--- "i know you would never put me in a positon that would compromise my honor" something i was thinking about since the commentray quote with the writers,
sort of could be interpretted "no matter what went down with us, i better be able to trust you to never bring it up in front of Will again..."

Because honestly, she's throwing herself at him. What sense of honor is she talking about??? She doesnt mean that the way most proper girls would

Originally posted by vegaofthelyre
I am officially going crazy. hahah I need to stop thinking about Jack and Pirates of the Caribbean. My thoughts yo yo back between thinking that Disney might stick Liz with Will to hoping that Jack will win the lady. Worrying over their love life is taking over my own life. I dont think i can last till... next.... May.. ❌

Hey girls I haven't been back on since last night....I've been depressed. I so agree with this statement. I have become to obsessed with Jack and Liz. Worrying over their love live has taken over my life too....

I read some disturbing stuff that I hope isn't true about the "leaked script" for POTC 3 and I'm not liking it one bit......if ya'll get my drift. So I've decided I should probably start preparing myself for a Elizabeth and Will reunion....I sure wish Disney wouldn't have put so much emphasis on Jack and Liz in this second movie...It's cruel to get our hopes up then have them crash down...but that's probably how Liz/Will fans felt when they saw Jack and Liz kiss

Originally posted by katelovespirate
YAYAYAY!
i love ALL those points. you are so brilliant.! 🙂

AND that line--- "i know you would never put me in a positon that would compromise my honor" something i was thinking about since the commentray quote with the writers,
sort of could be interpretted "no matter what went down with us, i better be able to trust you to never bring it up in front of Will again..."

Because honestly, she's throwing herself at him. What sense of honor is she talking about??? She doesnt mean that the way most proper girls would

I just don't get it. It was so obvious to me - even the first time I watch POTC 2 that there was something between Liz and Jack that's never been between Liz and will - sexual attraction..SOrry, but in order for relationships to last there has got to be strong sexual attraction....Basically, they made her betray Will, cuz I'm like you, she was asking for that kiss (the one she didn't get). She knew exactly what she was doing. You don't try to get someone to kiss you like that if you don't want it - and she was obviously so disappointed when it didn't happen.

I'm getting frustrated with Disney now....why did they have to put all this sexual tension between Liz and Jack if they have intention of continuing on with it in POTC 3....

I was looking forward to POTC 2 just at the notion of getting to see Johnny Depp in action again as Jack, but then when they made this thing between him and Liz, I feel more in love with it....It's just something about a hot man like that - you want to see him get the girl...

Interesting note...I was watching one of the interview clips with Keira and they do mention the interview where Johnny says he enjoyed working with Keira but was a little disturbed by the turn in their relationship and found the notion of them kissing to be uncomfortable since he is alot older than her....then Keira laughed and was like - yeah he is like 20 years older than me, so I understand, but I found it rather exciting myself - she said Johnny has the looks of a God - and is she ever right - I don't think there's a sexier, better-looking man than Johnny Depp, seriously - those dark brooding eyes, that black hair, those high cheekbone and that strong bold nose.....

HAHAHA that totally cracks me up. Well, as for it being wierd for JD, i hope that doesnt mean that was the only time it was wierd for him... i hope the entire shooting of pirates 3 will be wierd for him too... lol.

as far as the leaked script, i dont think it is the real one, but it probably has some accuracy to it. i remember before lord of the rings came out, there was a leaked picture of that evil wizard getting impaled by the spike, and everyone swore it was a fake, but then it turned out to be true. SO i guess what Im saying is, whether or not this leaked script is real, i think we should all prepare ourselves... i mean, i am not giving up hope quite yet, but either way it ends, there will have to be some more intense liz/jack moments.

It will be a shame if they pull back and make it all fit with Will again. The Liz/Jack chemistry added this whole new dimention to the film. All the critics listed that as their favorite part of the film. It just took it to this incredible place, which we never got to with Will and Liz.
However, I still have faith in the writers and directors. I think, even if Liz and Jack dont end up together, they are brilliant writers who will make it spectacular anyways. I am determined to enjoy it no matter what.

And we can always sit around and watch the 2nd one and PRETEND Liz and Jack got together. Thats what i always do at the end of peterpan, i add my own little scene where Wendy goes back to neverland and stays with him. lol.

OH and JACK IS HOTT.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
HAHAHA that totally cracks me up. Well, as for it being wierd for JD, i hope that doesnt mean that was the only time it was wierd for him... i hope the entire shooting of pirates 3 will be wierd for him too... lol.

as far as the leaked script, i dont think it is the real one, but it probably has some accuracy to it. i remember before lord of the rings came out, there was a leaked picture of that evil wizard getting impaled by the spike, and everyone swore it was a fake, but then it turned out to be true. SO i guess what Im saying is, whether or not this leaked script is real, i think we should all prepare ourselves... i mean, i am not giving up hope quite yet, but either way it ends, there will have to be some more intense liz/jack moments.

It will be a shame if they pull back and make it all fit with Will again. The Liz/Jack chemistry added this whole new dimention to the film. All the critics listed that as their favorite part of the film. It just took it to this incredible place, which we never got to with Will and Liz.
However, I still have faith in the writers and directors. I think, even if Liz and Jack dont end up together, they are brilliant writers who will make it spectacular anyways. I am determined to enjoy it no matter what.

And we can always sit around and watch the 2nd one and PRETEND Liz and Jack got together. Thats what i always do at the end of peterpan, i add my own little scene where Wendy goes back to neverland and stays with him. lol.

OH and JACK IS HOTT.

Oh so true and I'm sure we will be watching POTC 2 over and over..

HAHAHA OF COURSE!!! 🙂 its not even out yet and i watch scenes from it whenever i have time. lol. its a brilliant piece of work.

i'm feeling fussy. i dont WANT liz and will to get together. 🙁

Maybe we could go over to the location they are filming and have a nice chat with the writers about how the third one ought to turn out. We could probably persuade them... lol

Well get ready for a super-long post. I watched a bit of commentary. Chief thoughts coming away from it:

1. JD is so self-deprecating. I dont think he would LET the writers write it so he gets Liz. He makes fun of Jack the whole movie for thinking he could ever be with Liz. 😉 hehehehe. so funny.

2. Jack likes to get even with Will. Will slammed him on the head with an oar, and guess what Jack did in the 2nd one? Will kissed the girl, and guess what Jack did in the 2nd one? Will got engaged to the girl... hmmm...

3. Will is a complete goofball at heart. the first shot we get of him is him breaking the candle like an idiot. LOL. he is such an adolescent in this film. its kinda cute.

4. the writers commentary is annoying. basically, they just blab about the romantic image of pirates forever. LOL.

5. The reason the Liz/Will relationship works in the first one is because Will becomes the image of "Rebel with a cause" or "pirate for a reason." He isnt just breaking the rules to get what he wants, he is breaking the rules because they are wrong.
However, in the second one (and probably in the third one) we will see how Jack is actually the originator of this ideal--- because of his early refusal to carry slaves, etc... he has a cause that is not very apparent in the 1st one... but is becoming more apparent as we go.

6. the writers see the first film essentially as a love story. that doesnt bode well for us Liz/Jack fans...
they made an interesting comment about with this type of film, you care whether the characters live or die, but aside from that, you really dont care what happens to them. I hope they realize that with the second film, they have made a cross over and now we are more invested in the characters... the rollicking and swashbuckling has, in many senses, taken a backseat to the outcome of the love triangle.

Anyways, thats all for now.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
HAHAHA OF COURSE!!! 🙂 its not even out yet and i watch scenes from it whenever i have time. lol. its a brilliant piece of work.

i'm feeling fussy. i dont WANT liz and will to get together. 🙁

Maybe we could go over to the location they are filming and have a nice chat with the writers about how the third one ought to turn out. We could probably persuade them... lol

I know what ya mean, Love.....I love it...Persuade them...that's an awesome line "as I said, persuade me".....

Okay I know earlier today I was depressed and thinking....Liz and Will will end up together....but you know the more I think about it..the more I think...once Will discovers what Liz has done - he is not going to see her as the same person....he's going to be like "you're not the same person I fell in love with"' but this won't happen until near the end...the whole movie we are under the assumption that Liz is still deeply in love with Will - because she is still trying to convince herself and Will of this - I can see her begging Will for his forgiveness for kissing Jack - "Will, please forgive me, I only did it to grant a man his last dying wish, the kiss of a woman." but he doesn't know yet that she tricked Jack into the kiss in order to chain him to the ship....then..as for Jack and Liz...he tells her she is the same as Barboosa "the deepest cirlce of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers....." the underlying plot is the fact that Liz and Jack continue to deny their feelings, in fact Liz tells Jack she hates him....Norrington laughs at her in one scene and tells her there is a thin line between love and hate.....Jack looks to us like he's moved on, no worries.....then in the end, once Will learns the truth of how she chained Jack to the ship, Will tells her he can't marry her because she is not the woman he thought she was - that she was actually a coward because she chose to send Jack to his death so that she would not have to make a choice between him or Jack because she really wants JacK, and Will is okay with it cause throughtout the movie there are signs he is no longer in love with LIZ....So, there is poor Liz - sitting, crying in the rain like POTC 2 starts...Will has left her, and Jack, the man she loves, has written her off...She grabs a knife and is holding it "there is nothing left...I have lost everyone I have ever loved", as she holds the knife to her heart - about to carve it out, her hand is grabed by a strong masculine hand, but we see no face, she turns her tear stained face upward, "Jack"...."Lizzie, (first time he calls her Lizzie the entire movie), I can't let you do this" She stands up and they gaze into each other's eyes....this time he does the kissing...so the whole time he's been fighting with her, etc....he was wanting her but did not want to hurt Will, but once Will steps aside, Jack comes in and claims Elizabeth...The end.

sounds pretty hott to me... 🙂 now off you go, let the writers know you've come up with an appropriate way for this to all end.

If the worst should happen, Disney at least better make Will really piraty in the next one.

pretty much all of the obvious writing goes to will and liz, but all the underlying writing, connotation, and deliverance of script goes to Liz and Jack. bother.

there IS a fine line between love and hate.

I dont think Will is going to stop loving Liz. He might realize they cant be together, but i dont think he will stop loving her. he has done jack in once or twice himself.

PS I forgot something in my earlier post.

The writers originally scripted Norrington as a power-hungry villian who eventually teams up with the evil pirates. thats amusing then that they took that idea and made it a central part of the 2nd/3rd films. they seem to do that a lot--- ideas they played around with but couldnt continue in the first one came back in a big way in a second one...

So i have been thinking a bit...

The writers seem obsessed with the idea of Jack and Barbossa (and now probably Jones and Tia) being "gods" amongst a lot of "mere mortals".... meaning, they are these larger than life characters who are always ten steps ahead of everyone else. sometimes they get involved with "mere mortals" but they always revert to scheming with, fighting, interacting with "fellow gods". which you can see- Barbossa and Jack are extremely similar, except Jack has a moral center, actually. But the crew are the henchman, port royal is a bunch of civilians they are robbing or whatever...
so the question is, where do liz and will stand? In the first movie, i'd put them in with the "mere mortals", but in the second one, they both crossed some lines. Will tricked Davy Jones in a big way, and Liz... well, we all know what Liz did.
I think that has some bearing on what will happen in the 3rd one. If liz and will end up together, i think it will be a reversion to the "mere mortal" feel of them... otherwise, they are both going to become way more powerful and mythic.

gee when did this thread go away?

^^ I don't know.......I was thinking the same thing....

gosh without lovelyone we get stuck. lol

Originally posted by katelovespirate
gosh without lovelyone we get stuck. lol

This will be a long post.....

I agree...I don't know if there is a solution to solving the debate of Liz/Jack....All I know is we have all ascertained to the fact that their are hundreds of clues in the movie that indicate that Disney wants us to take notice of this relationship....Let us count the ways once again:

1) Rainy, Dreary Day spells doom for Liz and Will's wedding
2) Will sees her in her wedding dress, they are arrested, ironically, on their wedding day for helping in the escape of a known criminal, jack sparrow, i mean Captain Jack Sparrow.
3) Lord Beckett - when Liz holds him at gun point she tells him "take into your calculations that you have robbed me of my wedding night"..As he is signing the pardon papers, he says, "Ah, yes, a wedding interupted....or perhaps fate intervening...you seem to be going through alot of trouble to ensure Jack Sparrow's freedom." Liz responds quickly, "Not Jack's, Will's." (Beckett points out here that maybe it was fate that their wedding was stopped because she is not meant to marry Will and she secretly has a thing for Jack)
4) Jack can't seem to get the compass to work....Tia Dalma teases him, "Jack Sparrow don't know what he want." (she knows what he wants...this indicates that what Jack has thought he's wanted all along - freedom, the black pearl, etc....may not be what he really wants anymore)
5) The missing Hat - it's like LovelyOne has pointed out - that hat has got to be significant. Why would they have the monkey throw it off - then Jack spends the first half looking for a replacement hat, then when Liz shows up on his ship he seems to no longer be searching, then after the Kiss of Death, low and behold there appears the hat spit out by the Kraken.
6) when Elizabeth shows up , the flirting starts - she is very giddy and shy after he mentions "i happen to have no dress in my cabin"
7) when he is explaining the compass to her - she seems overwhelmend by him - then all of a sudden the compass begins to work (up till now the compass had not been working) The compass shows you what your heart most desires - it doesn't answer yes/no questions.
8) The Persuade Me conversation, James Norrington noticing that she has a dreamy look on her face when thinking about Jack and pointing out that she is in such awe of Jack that she didn't even question how her latest fiance ended up on the Flying Dutchman in the first place....
9) The compass pointing to Jack when Liz holds it
10) the Mar-ri-age conversation, which leads into the Curiosity conversation - and the almost kiss...she wants that kiss bad and looks sorely disappointed when Jack pulls away "I'm proud of you Jack". NOT!
11) The compass points to Jack again on the beach - Norrington notices
12) Jack is constantly trying to get Will out of the picture -sending him to Davy Jones to look for the key, telling Norrie that Will is really to blame for his misfortunes, knocking Will over the head with the paddle
13) In the rowboat, holding the compass and realizing his heart is pointing him to return to Elizabeth and the ship (there is no way he was going back for the ship, because he tells them to abandon ship, unless he was planning to sacrifice himself even if Liz had not chained him herself) By saying Abandon Ship - this indicates that he has realized that the safety of his friends is more important that the material objects
14) Jack the hero - grabbing the rifle from Liz - Liz clinging to his leg and Jack shooting the rifle -
15) The Kiss----"this is the only way, don't you see" and Jack's smile of "I told you, you would come over to my side, you long for freedom, to do what you want to do because you want to, to act on selfish impulse. You want to see what it's like. You won't be able to resist."
After she's chained him, and there is no longer any need to kiss him - she still wants to lean in and get another one - then his word to her, "Pirate"!
16) Liz's tearful regret...it is very obvious in Tia's cabin that she is full of remorse, shame and grief......

good list. i love to see things all spelled out very clearly for me... helps me to focus. 🙂 hehehe. thanks for doing that!
Yeah gosh Disney stop confusing everyone. The whole second movie makes it seem Jack and Liz will get together to be honest. very much so. Why do they do these things to us? sigh...

Does Jack really love weddings? good oppurtunity to do some pilfering i imagine. lol.

WHOAH!! I've mssed alot!!

I've noticed something new that loads of people seem to be over looking..I'm going to make a main post about it though because its more about Will and his dad.

Plus everyone here has such amazing posts..!