Solving the Debate Of Jack/Liz

I agree with everything you are saying..cept the ivanhoe thing..I dont know whatthe heck you are talking about 😂

and exactly..Liz depends on Jack when she needs it but Will just cant do it...poor old William.
Its true she seems to have thought he was a pirate and thats what was exciting to her..then we can see that he's not..once she gets the taste of the REAL pirate life she cant get enough of it.

What I also find interesting is in an interview Johnny said that each little trinket in his hair is a trinket from a really important moment in his life..Wouldnt it be so cute if Liz realises that he as put something in his dread locks that belongs to her? 😂

yes. LOL> 🙂

The Ivanhoe thing: ivanhoe is this novel where this guy has this childhood sweetheart (rowena) and goes out and has all these adventures where he meets this beautiful forbidden Jewess (Rebecca) and they fall in love, and he saves her and she saves him multiple times, and they hang out with Robin Hood and other cool people, but then at the end Ivanhoe stays honorable and marries Rowena, and Rebecca leaves forever... Ivanhoe reminds me of Liz.
Anyways, i just thought it was a neat parallel, and hopefully this story will end with the right relationship. lol. 😉

exaclty, Jack is the REAL pirate here.

There are going to be some INTENSE scenes in the next film... lots of emotional intensity going on. AHHHHH i cant wait!!!! 🙂

Like when Liz is wearing the medallion at the beginning of the 1st one--- thinking it is a trinket of Will's, but actually, thats all Jack Sparrow too. From the beginning that's who she wants.

Lizzy interupted his lifestyle and he interrupted hers--- that first day they met. They used each other, saved each other, and grew together. they have both tricked each other many times, but that doesnt seem to damage their friendship in the slightest. if anything, it makes it stronger.
If jack doesnt go with Lizzy, you get the feeling he will be single forever, because no one is as good for him as Lizzy. Same with her. they are SOOO ALIKE. Jack sees it. Liz sees it at the end of the 2nd one. I cant wait to see their reunion. seriously.

I totally agree with everything you say, Katelovespirates. It is so strange - I was just about to write something similar to your passage about comparing Liz/Jack to Liz/Will when I got back online and saw you beat me to it. I watched Pirates 1 last night. I was taking into consideration everything we've been discussing. I was thinking how proper Will is when, yes he's known her for 8 years and is suppose to be in love with her, but yet refuses to call her Elizabeth, insists on calling her Miss Swann. Not until she is out of ear-shot is he man enough to call her by her name. In Jack's scene it's funny - he calls her Elizabeth and she instantly tells him, "it's Miss Swann". HA.

You are so right about him not liking the pirate life. How about in Potc 1 when they are in the blacksmith shop. Will says, "I practice three hours a day so that when I meet a Pirate, I can kill it." "Ah" says Jack.
Will: "You threatened Miss Swann", Jack responds, "Only a Little."
Love that whole sword fighting scene. It was so entertaining and funny.

Toward the end in the cave, Will and Elizabeth are staring at each other and he reminds her that she should get back to her fiance, Commodore Norrington.....She gets huffy and leaves - Jack says, "If you were looking for the opportune moment, mate, that was it." Poor Will can't even woo said strumpet without getting advice from our dear Jack.

Yes, Poor Will does become more of man by the end of the movie, but pretty much everything he's learned about Pirating he has learned from Jack. But he doesn't want to be a Pirate. Like Katelovespirate points out, all the conversations between him and his Dad are based around not wanting to be a pirate. He's just too boring to be a real pirate.

Jack is very sexy in POTC 1 when he and Will are comandeering the Interceptor. The way he pulls that off just shows how smart he is - how clever. I love when Poor Will says, "here they come" and Jack is looking over his shoulder and gives that sexy smile- and of course he has the sexy coat on. Another very sexy shot of Johnny - when jack is in Prison and he smiles as he pulls the hat down over his forehead. Ooo-la-la.

In POTC 1, opening scene - When Elizabeth is holding the aztec gold and she sees the black pearl for the first time - this could also be a sign of her own destiny to come. Little does she know at that time how much of a role that ship is going to play in her adult life.

I pointed that discussion between Will and his dad out^^ 🙁

...I think I did first anyway..

😂

Oh yes those sexy shots of Jack..where he smiles in the prison...he seems to show a huge confidence..

Its seriously as if he feels that his possesions are what makes him more confident, like his hat, his rum and stuff..Seriously this encounter he has had with Liz has changed him quite alot he showed tremendous confidence when ever he was around her without his hat, (although she had it on) his compass..he was lost until he found her....he's beginning to let go of the material things in his life..and its as soon as Liz shows up in the second one.

Towards the end I think liz helped him realise that yeh, he puts on this mask that proves to himself that he's brave..but even without the mask he still came back for her and did something brave. So he's beginning to realise that theres more to life than material possesions..So there is a chance in the next that he will let someone in, closer to him more so than he did in this one.

I'm not making much sense lol..I'm really sleepy.

It seems as if Tia knew he needed something to cling onto to make himself feel safe in the latest one when he was in a state of worry (Jar of Dirt) its what his character is like..he feels like he needs something there to prove to him that everything is fine and dandy..Liz could be the long term answer to it..which I think the hat thing was symbolizing..he lost his beloved possesion that makes him feel confident..then along comes liz wearing it and his confidence returns to him. Liz is the answer Jack..its right in your face...quite literally...MORE than once 😂

LOL i was just watching the moment when Barbossa comes back..do you think Liz looked as if she was secretly thinking "Jack?" as he was walking down the stairs 😂

i know i was.....idunno but i thought it was gonna be jack

Same here^^ 😂

Katelovespirate you know the similarity thing with the first scene in Potc1 and what happened in the next movie..

I was just thinking of another thing. He says to her "I saved your life, You saved mine, now we are square" that could be hinting that in the next one..the fact that Liz comes back to get him out of purgatory means that they are "even" and that there are no hard feelings..and then of course "my lady" 😂

Also Norrington in that whole scene could resemble Will in PotC2..He doesn't save her when she really needs it Jack does. He also cant protect her again when Jack takes her with the chains..meaning will cant get her back when Jack comes along..

The very first time Jack touches her...he frees her too. She's held down by the dress..he pulls it off..She cant breathe..he cuts of the corset and she can. In comparison with the second move..he cuts off all her ties to the old life..and she's finally free to breathe and do her own thing.

She also gets thrown back(once freed from all her clothes)..quite reluctantly into the arms of Norrington.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Same here^^ 😂

Katelovespirate you know the similarity thing with the first scene in Potc1 and what happened in the next movie..

I was just thinking of another thing. He says to her "I saved your life, You saved mine, now we are square" that could be hinting that in the next one..the fact that Liz comes back to get him out of purgatory means that they are "even" and that there are no hard feelings..and then of course "my lady" 😂

Also Norrington in that whole scene could resemble Will in PotC2..He doesn't save her when she really needs it Jack does. He also cant protect her again when Jack takes her with the chains..meaning will cant get her back when Jack comes along..

The very first time Jack touches her...he frees her too. She's held down by the dress..he pulls it off..She cant breathe..he cuts of the corset and she can. In comparison with the second move..he cuts off all her ties to the old life..and she's finally free to breathe and do her own thing.

She also gets thrown back(once freed from all her clothes)..quite reluctantly into the arms of Norrington.

thats seriously SOOOOOOO beautiful. So true. He frees her. He saves her by cutting off the restrictions around her.

You are so smart. 🙂

LOL I know..He just resembles freedom from the offset to her..I love how she cant take her eyes off of him in that scene. Everyone else is looking at Norrington speaking and she's just staring at Jack. The others do look at him but not as intensely as she does.

I think you and lovethemtigers are the best at finding things out lol..the only real thing I figured out was the hat thing..and I might be completely wrong with that 😂

Oh and the Will/davy thing i kinda figured out... 😕

Wow, seems like there are more Jack/Liz fans than Will/Liz fans. As much as I love the chemistry between Jack and Liz, I really doubt Disney will hook them up in the end. They've already established Will and Liz as lovers in the first POTC, and probably decided to add a love triangle in the second one to make things a little interesting, but in the end, you know the RIGHT ending is for Liz and Will to get married. I'm not saying I would LIKE this kind of ending, but having Liz and Jack be together is more like fantasy than reality. In fact, if Disney by some unlikely chance decides to end it with Jack and Liz together, I think it would be sort of a ridiculous ending... what's to become of Will? Sure he's boring, but he stands for righteousness and honesty, it's only fitting and Disney-like to have him win the girl. The reason why we want to see Liz and Jack together is mainly for 2 reasons: 1) we all understand how it feels to want the bad boy, and 2) it's just plain old bad acting on the part of Orlando Bloom. We'd probably root for Will/Liz more if the part of Will were played by a more charismatic and better-looking actor, but unfortunately Johnny is a tough one to match.

Thing Is..Will's character seems to have a sinister destiny ahead of him. Tia picked up on it... His and Liz's relationship is mirroring what happened to Davy jones. He is the man that means honor..but the other honorable men are actually the baddies in the movies..Will is deceivingly "too good to be true" IMO I can imagine Will doing something for the EITC because he would think they are in the right...especially after how pissed off he must be about Jack the pirate stealing his woman.

Also a happy ending would be something that would make all of the characters happy. Especially the main one. I feel that Jack really wants Liz..not just to sleep with but he does have a bond with her and she with him. He came back for her more than anyone else at the end of Potc2..it was all about those two and that moment where she looks up at her hero.... She wants the pirate life and Will just cant give it to her. She depends on Jack more than anyone..Will just isn't there for her. The whole movie was about will and Liz's relationship slowly crumbling..and that Kiss Will saw is going to be one huge blow to an already disintegrating relationship..

The princess has gone off with the rogue before in a story. Star Wars. and that was one of the most successful trilogies ever. People preferred the fact Layah went off with Hans Solo instead of Luke. They didnt think it was a silly, rediculous ending either. It was a more interesting ending..Just like it would be for PotC3. Its proof that it can be done...and that it can be well recieved by the audience.

Will has been introduced to his father. He has another goal..If he saves his father..that will be his happy ending..which means there wouldnt have to be a happy ending between him and Liz. But Jack and Liz pairing would mean they both get what they want.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
yes. LOL> 🙂

The Ivanhoe thing: ivanhoe is this novel where this guy has this childhood sweetheart (rowena) and goes out and has all these adventures where he meets this beautiful forbidden Jewess (Rebecca) and they fall in love, and he saves her and she saves him multiple times, and they hang out with Robin Hood and other cool people, but then at the end Ivanhoe stays honorable and marries Rowena, and Rebecca leaves forever... Ivanhoe reminds me of Liz.
Anyways, i just thought it was a neat parallel, and hopefully this story will end with the right relationship. lol. 😉

OOh.. very good point katelovespirate. I didn't even think of Ivanhoe for some reason. Another similar would be Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton where the main character is engaged to a proper, upper class girl he "thinks he loves" but then falls madly, insanely in love with her cousin who is kind of the black sheep of this elite family because she is divorced. In the end however, he does the honorable thing and goes back to marry his boring but proper fiancee. The last scene is like, 30 years later, he has a chance to see the one love of his life again for the first time in decades.. and then he just decides against it, walking back to his hotel because he knows it's too late for both of them. It's incredibly sad, very evocative of lost opportunities for true happiness and true compatibility. HMM now that I think about it, it would actually make the film more sad if they put liz with will.. there will always be the pain of "what might have been" with Jack. HMM DISNEY come on.. give us the happy ending!!

Also, you read my mind lovethemtigers!! Those two scenes you pointed out of Jack unexpectedly flashing that sexy smile. Two of my favorite shots of Jack... the "here they come" scene and the prison scene. GAH.. i need to drink water when i see those parts. He kinda smiles like that during the last "Pirate" scene too 😍 Whatever you can say about Liz, that girl has self control. I would have gone back for more and ended up going down with the Kraken along with Jack 😮

When Luke lost the distraction of Layah he became stronger and more concentrated on his goal..which was to defeat Darth Vader. It gave his character a more powerful image at the end of the trilogy..where as before he was the wussy man compared with Hans. Disney seem to be doing something similar with Will. The loss of Liz is probably going to make him a stronger...he can concentrate harder on his goal and achieve it in a spectacular way...but if he is there to constantly worry about Liz then it cant happen. His character will end as the wuss of the picture..

Its a classic thing film makers do..they make the weaker character be set on one single goal (no time for two)..and they usually prove themselves spectacularly in the end . Which is their happy ending. Seeing as Jack is the main and most liked character..he will need his happy ending..which is GET THE GIRL just like Hans Solo did..he was the faveorite character of the people but luke was the one who made the difference..Hans needed HIS win to make the people happy..which was the fair Layah..he also did his fair share of rescuing and fighting.. 😂

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to believe that Jack loves Liz. To think that Jack secretly loves her is a contradiction of his character-- always free, never tied down, the rogue-- these are the things that make him the Jack Sparrow we love. While watching POTC2, I did get the impression that Liz does pine for Jack and his lifestyle, while Jack just sees Liz as another girl he can have fun with (like the dozens of women he wooed before her). And I might be blind, but I didn't catch any looks of jealousy on Jack's face when Will and Liz were together, and believe me, I WAS looking for it the second time I watched POTC2, but it just wasn't there imo. Theories about the compass pointing to Liz also seem a little farfetched, I think he just felt guilty about leaving his crew behind while he was on that boat.. POTC2 really isn't meant to be that deep of a movie honestly, and all this analyzing is all fun and interesting, but I highly doubt it's what the screenwriters had in mind.

Anyway, I will agree with this.. Johnny and Keira look infinitely better together than Orlando and Keira. They just have this chemistry that sets off sparks like no other movie couple.

Originally posted by SpiderGurl
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to believe that Jack loves Liz. To think that Jack secretly loves her is a contradiction of his character-- always free, never tied down, the rogue-- these are the things that make him the Jack Sparrow we love. While watching POTC2, I did get the impression that Liz does pine for Jack and his lifestyle, while Jack just sees Liz as another girl he can have fun with (like the dozens of women he wooed before her). And I might be blind, but I didn't catch any looks of jealousy on Jack's face when Will and Liz were together, and believe me, I WAS looking for it the second time I watched POTC2, but it just wasn't there imo. Theories about the compass pointing to Liz also seem a little farfetched, I think he just felt guilty about leaving his crew behind while he was on that boat.. POTC2 really isn't meant to be that deep of a movie honestly, and all this analyzing is all fun and interesting, but I highly doubt it's what the screenwriters had in mind.

Anyway, I will agree with this.. Johnny and Keira look infinitely better together than Orlando and Keira. They just have this chemistry that sets off sparks like no other movie couple.

Actually. If you look closer you can see that Jack is very much falling for Liz. She's not just some woman to him..she is the woman who beats him at his own game for one..when its usually the other way around. Liz is also the only character Jack seems to be most comfortable around..he drops his guard when around her.. You could also see how turned on he was that he had her at his level. Liz is also not just some other woman in the story. She is the leading lady..and if there was to be a pairing between characters it would be Liz and Jack. not Jack and Anna maria or whatever.

This movie is supposed to be one that you watch over and over again..picking up clues each time. The middle of a trilogy is time of disturbance.. It's a movie about characters in a state of confusion as to what they really want and so things are supposed to be hidden from view and there are supposed to be subliminal messages to hint as to whats really going on. The move reflects how the characters are feeling..completely bemused and confused..but there are things in there actually telling them what they want..but its going WAY over their heads.

Also characters need to develop in trilogies..they cant stay the same for ever..they cant have the same priorities forever either otherwise that means the story cant progress..what ever happens in a story affects the characters...Jack is already changing, he is beginning to think less of his material possessions and more of people..things that were once his top priorities are now in the background.

There are 3 people in this story who seem to be able to see right through Jack's and Liz's denial. They all seem to be people who have or have had the power to oversee everything, they see sense..and they can see whats going on with the characters whilst they are in a state of denial.

Norrington
Tia
Beckett

all of these 3 can see whats really going on between the characters..Tia knows what Jack wants and she knows that its Liz..Norrington knows that Liz wants Jack...and Beckett does too.

If that last scene was more about him saving his crew then it wouldn't have been so focused on Jack and Liz. It was all about the hero coming back to save his love.. Its also at that moment where she realizes she and Jack are actually VERY suited to one another..but she's not ready to accept it yet..she's battling with what she knows she wants..an what she thinks she SHOULD want..which is Will..she chains Jack up to stop the temptation..she forces herself to be with Will..even if its not what her heart wants.

Also..Jack may not look jealous..but he sure acts iffy around Will in the movie..He tries to get rid of hi all the time..he embarrasses him..he physically hurts him, he becomes threatened when he's treading on his territory..this is all the actions of an Alpha male who is becoming threatened by a young challenger..I think subliminally he is very jealous of Will because he has the one thing he wants..and Jack has to change in order to get that one thing..and he actually does in the end..

LovelyOne, you figure out everything. i just steal things from everyone else and re-word them... hahaha. 🙂

I am tired of arguing logically. Here are my top ten non-logical reasons why Jack and Liz should get together:

10. we could watch them make out all the time.
9. they both look good in pirate gear
8. jack's had a rough time of it lately. he needs a girl, and all the girls at tortuga are sluts.
7. we could listen to them make cheeky conversations about each other.
6. it would be hilarious to see how they broke the news to Will.
5. we could watch them cuddle all the time, after saving each other's lives.
4. then Jack might take a bath--- 😉
3. they could have more island sleepovers
2. liz could get a Mrs. Sparrow tattoo.
1. it would be HOTT.

hahahaha. 🙂 YAY!

LovelyOne - EXCELLENT points. Wow, you're so right about the last Kraken scene.... it is HEAVILY focused on the Jack/Liz dynamic.

A lot of screen time is given to Jack leaving, Liz feeling disillusioned and her reaction to his 11th hour act of heroism. They could have very easily just had Keira see the gunpowder exploding from a distance/ across the ship and THEN realize that Jack came back. But the shots that reveal Jack's return is just too overt-- clearly, Lizzie is an important part of understanding Jack's return-- she is the only one to notice Jack's departure and also the first one to validate his return. I personally love that scene... she's desperately crawling over the steps to get the rifle.. and she tries to get the foot off the gun and she looks up and her hero's all of a sudden filling up the world. Then she clings to his leg in a very rare moment of vulnerability surrender as she allows Jack to "protect her." In contrast, Will is becoming more of a man, as he gives orders and all that, but this growth is very distinctly separate from his relationship with Liz... we don't get to see them interacting much at all during this defining moment.

Brilliance. Totally did not occur to me.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I edited my above post a bit 😂

Yeh I agree about the lashing scene. It seemed as if it wasn't really needed..but its probably going to echo something else later on..most likely what you say^^ It might be where someone is trying to persuade Will to cut his heart out but his dad steps in and does something to stop it.

His father is a constant reminder of what can happen to you if you are a pirate..thats going to put Will off of the lifestyle for good...

Yeah I hated the lashing scene. So unexpected in a Disney movie. I also did not like the Turkish Prison, just before we first see Jack Sparrow. Actually, when I watched it the 2nd and 3rd times I closed my eyes on those two parts....don't like the at'll.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I pointed that discussion between Will and his dad out^^ 🙁

...I think I did first anyway..

😂

Oh yes those sexy shots of Jack..where he smiles in the prison...he seems to show a huge confidence..

Its seriously as if he feels that his possesions are what makes him more confident, like his hat, his rum and stuff..Seriously this encounter he has had with Liz has changed him quite alot he showed tremendous confidence when ever he was around her without his hat, (although she had it on) his compass..he was lost until he found her....he's beginning to let go of the material things in his life..and its as soon as Liz shows up in the second one.

I'm sorry, I thought I had double checked by resources, but not close enough.