Solving the Debate Of Jack/Liz

Originally posted by brokenxxheart14
i know i was.....idunno but i thought it was gonna be jack

ME TOOO I was so shocked and disappointed to see Barboosa. But then it was like. Okay, cool. But how is he going to fit into the story. I just can't even imagine how this will all unfold. Beckett with the heart, Jack eaten by the Krakin, Barboosa leading the search for jack and the black pearl, how will Will save his Dad, the reunion of Jack and Liz, and the role of Norrington, and the chinese pirate? Davy Jones, Tia Dalma - just so many characters and mysteries to unravel.

Originally posted by vegaofthelyre
LovelyOne - EXCELLENT points. Wow, you're so right about the last Kraken scene.... it is HEAVILY focused on the Jack/Liz dynamic.

A lot of screen time is given to Jack leaving, Liz feeling disillusioned and her reaction to his 11th hour act of heroism. They could have very easily just had Keira see the gunpowder exploding from a distance/ across the ship and THEN realize that Jack came back. But the shots that reveal Jack's return is just too overt-- clearly, Lizzie is an important part of understanding Jack's return-- she is the only one to notice Jack's departure and also the first one to validate his return. I personally love that scene... she's desperately crawling over the steps to get the rifle.. and she tries to get the foot off the gun and she looks up and her hero's all of a sudden filling up the world. Then she clings to his leg in a very rare moment of vulnerability surrender as she allows Jack to "protect her." In contrast, Will is becoming more of a man, as he gives orders and all that, but this growth is very distinctly separate from his relationship with Liz... we don't get to see them interacting much at all during this defining moment.

Brilliance. Totally did not occur to me.

LOl thanks 😛 Jack is always there when she needs him most..Will just...cant do it. The very first moment Jack meets Liz..He saves her life..without Jack..in no way would Will have been able to save her from Barbossa. Without Jack..the kraken would have killed them all.

To me, I actually see a pattern developing..It seems as if Liz choses the man she thinks she should be with but soon learns that its not what she really wants. She thought she should have been with Norrington..but Will resembled a bit more of an exciting life...that soon runs dry and she feels as if she needs more, along comes Jack. This movie shows us this pattern.

As katelovespirte has said..Jack has always been there since Will and Liz first met..The medallion relates back to Jack...He and the pirate lifestyle is there all the time under Liz's skin. She just needs to realise it..when Jack meets her in the first one..she just cant take her eyes off of him..he rocks her world..in the second one..It grows. He affects the relationship of Will and Elizabeth constantly even when he's not there. He's always a part of it and when he comes back..things tend to change alot for all the charcters..

Katelovespirate, the lashing scene and the crow scene shows us that Disney are pretty much bending the rules lol So i'm not complaining..its more of a Jack/Liz chance now 😂 The third in the trilogy tend to show the rules the middle finger..😂

Lovethemtigers..no worries..I was only kidding about 😛

YES plus having to choose a soulmate for Liz! gasp. this movie is going to be LOOOOONG and intense like you wouldnt believe. i will probably not last through it.

I bet Tia Dalma gets some new clothes in the next one.
I also bet Liz gets to wear some pretty clothes.
Ooooh and while i am at it.... i LOVE chow yun phat so i cant wait to see him acting piraty. that is going to be hott.
if they throw in any more hott people into this film, it will blow up.

Originally posted by SpiderGurl
Wow, seems like there are more Jack/Liz fans than Will/Liz fans. As much as I love the chemistry between Jack and Liz, I really doubt Disney will hook them up in the end. They've already established Will and Liz as lovers in the first POTC, and probably decided to add a love triangle in the second one to make things a little interesting, but in the end, you know the RIGHT ending is for Liz and Will to get married. I'm not saying I would LIKE this kind of ending, but having Liz and Jack be together is more like fantasy than reality. In fact, if Disney by some unlikely chance decides to end it with Jack and Liz together, I think it would be sort of a ridiculous ending... what's to become of Will? Sure he's boring, but he stands for righteousness and honesty, it's only fitting and Disney-like to have him win the girl. The reason why we want to see Liz and Jack together is mainly for 2 reasons: 1) we all understand how it feels to want the bad boy, and 2) it's just plain old bad acting on the part of Orlando Bloom. We'd probably root for Will/Liz more if the part of Will were played by a more charismatic and better-looking actor, but unfortunately Johnny is a tough one to match.

Yes, this makes sense in some matters. But for one, Will and Liz are not lovers, this is a Disney movie, as we all keep pointing out...Somehow I can't even imagine poor Old Will being man enough to you know, it's kind of like Jack keeps saying, Eunuch. Then you say to end with Jack and Liz would be more like fantasy than reality -well that what this movie is all about -FANTASY, is it not? Who knows what will become of Will.....maybe once the curse is broken Tia will melt out of the wenchy witch look and sweep William off his feet - she is very drawn to him....But I do agree with your 2 points as to why WE want to have Jack and Liz together..Yes, it is very hard to go up against Johnny. Actually, ya know, Heath Ledger would've been a great choice to play Will. Talk about a box-office smash, Johnny and Heath - eye-candy like crazy.....And then they could have had Mel Gibson play bootstrap Bill. What an awesome concept. Johnny, Heath and Mel all on the same screen.....

^^ LMAO!! Mel, Heath, and Johnny. LOLLLLL

Anyway, some of you are saying that Liz wears a pirate hat, clothing because she likes Jack, and her attire is a symbol of how she completes him... interesting theory, but I think Disney was aiming at something probably much simpler than that. They're aiming for irony: Liz is descending into piracy while Jack is becoming more human. In effect, they're trading places.

I have a feeling Disney might make Will prove himself beyond belief for Liz..which would give her a reason to go back to him BAH!

I mean he did it in the first one..maybe he could change again in the second and show that he really can save her when she needs it.

Jack and me. 😍

Originally posted by SpiderGurl
^^ LMAO!! Mel, Heath, and Johnny. LOLLLLL

Anyway, some of you are saying that Liz wears a pirate hat, clothing because she likes Jack, and her attire is a symbol of how she completes him... interesting theory, but I think Disney was aiming at something probably much simpler than that. They're aiming for irony: Liz is descending into piracy while Jack is becoming more human. In effect, they're trading places.

Then what of the confusion scene in tortuga? Trying on all the hats..not finding the right one..then hello hello Liz has it. His troubles end for the moment..Towards the end he gets it back just as he finally "gets liz down at his level"..If that was just about her becoming less human then why add that whole aspect into the story? So what Liz is going to be the new Jack and Jack is trading places and becoming the old Liz?? LOL i cant see that happening.

Being a pirate doesn't make you inhuman. Jack has ALWAYS had a humaine side to him..he tends to put people first..but its only now that he begins to accept that he does...Liz has always had an obssesion for pirates but its only now that she starts to embrace it fully..Its as if they both did eacother a favor in discovering something about themselves and what they really want.

I think that its also about them realising they BOTH match up in terms of personality. One minute Jack will do the honorable thing..and the next he'll give Will away to save his own skin. One minute Liz will do the right thing..then the next she will do the wrong thing. It shows us that they are becoming more and more alike..not different..

LOL so if it was for the irony..and Jack is becoming more "human" and Liz is becoming less human..This would Make Jack more suited to Will and Liz less suited to both..oh maybe they will end it on a homosexual relationship 😂

The very fact that Jack was not hurt by what Liz did to him..shows us that he hasn't changed all that much in character but Liz just totally has. He's loving the fact that Liz has just done this to him..he wouldnt be smiling at all if he was hurt. He doesn't care that he just saved her life and now she's just betrayed him... She has become more like him and its what he wants. Thats why he got his hat back at the end..thats why she doesn't wear it in that last scene.

He just saved her life for her gratitude..and she's just betrayed him and guess what..he's happy..

this thread is going towards some curious directions. 😑 😄

Jack is still very much a pirate...and now Liz has become one too. If he completley changed character and turned into an all good man just like Liz has completley changed into a pirate..then People wont like it.

People dont care that Liz is changing into a pirate because its making Jack happy.

Oh and also. Jack's hat is his single most beloved possesion..Liz is wearing it..dont you think that would hint more towards Liz actually becoming his most beloved possesion..instead of plain old Irony?

Also the fact he gets it back at the end stamps out the irony part..it would mean that he changes back to "inhuman" if thats what the hat actually symbolized. Liz would have also worn it in the last scene if it was to truly symbolize her becoming inhuman..but its absent..

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I have a feeling Disney might make Will prove himself beyond belief for Liz..which would give her a reason to go back to him BAH!

I mean he did it in the first one..maybe he could change again in the second and show that he really can save her when she needs it.

i know... sometimes i think the same thing.

BUT WE WILL NOT GIVE UP HOPE!!! 🙂

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i know... sometimes i think the same thing.

BUT WE WILL NOT GIVE UP HOPE!!! 🙂

this is very odd I was just thinking the same thing while driving in my car earlier....I know in my heart and mind I want the Jack-Liz relationship to be the one - but can't help but think that Disney will redeem Will - he did seem a little more manly in this movie, like when he is the one ordering everyone to load the gun powder and the rum - he definitely takes charge - while Jack is rowing off in the boat. I can't help but admit that the first time I saw POTC 3 I was so disappointed when they show Jack rowing off in the boat -deserting his ship and his friends....what real Captain doesn't go down with his ship....so, I'm so glad the writers made him come back and when they did they redeemed him in a big way - showing us a side of Jack Sparrow we've never seen before - a serious, caring Jack. Look, Jack's face death before and he was always joking around still, being his usually crazy self, but in that last scene he is all man, and very, very serious....

Then in Tia's cabin, once again Will seems to have more of an aura about him - like he's growing out of being a wimp.....But, I guess it's like someone else said....maybe if it was someone other than Orlando Bloom playing him, we may be inclined to accept Will....but then again...I really don't think there is anyone that can match up to Johnny and his creation, the legendary Captian Jack Sparrow....

I know. its like, no matter how studly or amazing Will gets, he will never be right for Liz anymore, cause she wants Jack. lol. but i dont know if Disney sees it that way.

Give her the pirate, gosh. lol.

No one will ever match up with Capn Jack. Unless Jack absolutely refuses to be with Liz, she should not settle for less.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
I know. its like, no matter how studly or amazing Will gets, he will never be right for Liz anymore, cause she wants Jack. lol. but i dont know if Disney sees it that way.

Give her the pirate, gosh. lol.

No one will ever match up with Capn Jack. Unless Jack absolutely refuses to be with Liz, she should not settle for less.

Yeah, I know I keep flip-flopping.. It's like at times I get swayed my those that say Liz and Will are meant to be and Jack was just a diversion...but then there's that other part that says Why would Disney go through so much trouble to put so much emphasis on this change in relationship between Jack and Liz...I mean they could have made some funny scenes between them to fill space without all that flirting and sexual tension - because in the first movie the only real flirting they do is on the island when Jack is three sheets to the wind. Jack's not even drunk during his conversations with Liz in this movie....The movie did not have to lead up to a kiss unless Disney wanted it tooo- there could have been many other interesting ways...And my biggest arugement that makes me want to lean toward Jack and Liz - as I've said over and over - James Norrington, Cutler Beckett and Tia. Especially Norrington - why would they have the scene between Norrington and Liz if they didn't want the audience to be aware that this is more than just casual flirting - why would they make Liz have that dreamy look when thinking about Jack and the No Dress and Persuade Me lines.....and of course the finale - when Jack comes back to the ship and Liz is hanging onto his leg as he shoots the rifle - such an awesome scene. The kiss - that's the ultimate clue that Disney has something up their sleeve....I mean this is Captain Jack Sparrow - and Elizabeth - I know he's a pirate and all but it is a movie, but she is a pirate,too,now. She can never go back...she has crossed that line....I just can't imagine how Disney will pull off comedy after the way POTC 2 ended in such a dark and sad mood....did you notice the lady in the water holding a candle with a big tear rolling down her face - and Gibbs comment "Aye, the world is already less brighter without Jack Sparrow." Oh well...I'll end for now, we could go on and on with this subject and our theories.....now I'm depressed talking about the dark mood and Jack being dead....

Here a passage from Wikepedia about POTC 3 -I'm sure ya'll read it but it amazed me that they mention the Norrington issue that I've said over and over...

Here it is:
Both crews arrive at the island much at the same time, even though Davy Jones must send his crew to retrieve the chest as he himself cannot set foot on land for another decade. Jack, Norrington and Elizabeth are the first to reach the spot where the chest is buried, which they attempt to pinpoint using Jack's compass. Their attempt is stymied briefly by the fact that when Elizabeth holds the compass it no longer points reliably to the chest, but instead often points to Jack — a fact that perturbs Elizabeth herself and that appears to confirm Norrington's earlier accusation, aboard the Pearl that Elizabeth's heart has begun to wander away from her "most recent fiancé" and toward the pirate captain. When Jack examines the compass, it points to Elizabeth, and he then deduces that she's sitting right on top of their goal (when the compass pointed back at Jack for Elizabeth, it may have either been pointing to Jack or the spot where the chest was, as they were in the same line with the compass). The trio manage to find a chest buried in the sand, which contains letters (presumably to or from the woman who broke Davy Jones's heart) and also a smaller chest that holds the audibly beating heart itself

as the crew prepares once more to defend the ship from the Kraken, which returns and immediately destroys all the cannons. During the battle, Elizabeth catches sight of Jack rowing away from the boat, and calls him a coward. Moments later, as Jack is rowing away from the embattled ship, he is shown looking at his compass, and it is implied that it points back to the Pearl and the crew on it (and possibly right to Elizabeth). It is during that final battle against the Kraken that Elizabeth runs into Jack, who has returned to save the day. He fires a shot into the trap of gunpowder, which explodes and blasts the Kraken's tentacles to pieces. It returns to the water, but Jack knows that it will certainly return. He gives the painful order to abandon ship.

the final scenes of POT3 (we had already hashed out all our theories before I read this - so this is very interesting):

Elizabeth realizes the Kraken is specifically after Jack. As the crew is climbing off the Pearl into a rowboat, Elizabeth turns to Jack and kisses him passionately. As she does, Will (who is climbing down the ship to the wooden "lifeboat"😉 witnesses the kiss and is clearly hurt by what he sees. Elizabeth's kiss distracts Jack enough so that she can chain Jack to the mast of the doomed Pearl. She tells Jack at this point that her action is the only way to save the others, and that she is not sorry for it, although later she seems truly saddened by what she has done. (This is an interesting turning point for Jack and Elizabeth: Jack has seemingly decided to show his good side by returning to help at the risk of his own life, while Elizabeth for once throws her own sense of honor and decency to the wind, both by kissing Jack, and by chaining him to the mast to save herself and the crew. There are also two specific scenes in which the voodoo compass wavers towards Jack while under the influence of Elizabeth, insinuating some ulterior feelings on her part.) As she climbs into the lifeboat in which the survivors will escape, Elizabeth answers Will's cold inquiry about Jack that he decided to remain aboard to give them a chance of escape, and they row away. Jack manages to slip out of his shackles just as the Kraken appears on all sides of the ship, trapping him. Jack grabs his sword, and the last we see of him, he is smiling and saying, "Hello, beastie." He charges, sword drawn, into the beast's jaw as the monster drags the Pearl beneath the waves. Davy Jones sees this and proclaims Jack's debt fulfilled. However, he then demands to see the chest. After realizing his heart has been stolen, he looks up into the sky and shouts, "Damn you, Jack Sparrow!"

Norrington then reappears in Port Royal and reports to Beckett, demanding a full pardon. To Beckett's surprise, Norrington does not deliver Sparrow's magical compass. Instead, he drops a sack onto the desk, containing Davy Jones' heart.

The Pearl's survivors revisit Tia Dalma, where the sullen crew drinks a toast to Jack. Tia Dalma then asks if any of them would truly wish to bring Jack and the Black Pearl back, and each of the seven survivors says they would. Tia says if they are to manage this, they will need to go to a place called World's End, and will need a strong captain who knows those waters. At this, Captain Barbossa (Geoffrey Rush), who was shot by Jack just before Will drops the coins into the chest, ending the curse in the first film, descends the spiral starcase. To the others' shocked stares, he asks, "So tell me, what's become of my ship?" then bites into a green apple with a smile as his faithful monkey jumps to his shoulder and lets out a scream.

What an Awesome Movie.....To be continued.....

GOSH I AM LOSING MY MIND....
How tragic is it that they lost Jack?!?!?! I mean, i know we are all alright because we know he is coming back... but poor Liz, Gibbs, etc!!!! they actually thought they had lost him forever!!!! Can you imagine?!?! the world without capn jack!??!?! that would be AWFUL. if i were liz in that moment, heartbroken is not even the word for it. even if all our romance theories are false, NO ONE can deny that deep, unique bond of friendship between them. Almost a soul-mate thing, as friends, if that makes sense. OMG. that would have been SOOOO painful for her.

there were alot of religious undertones in this film i noticed. I am a Christian and so i found it rather amusing, how supersticion and religion run together for the pirates and everyone. it was really interesting. especially with Tia Dalma. i always get so frustrated when people try to show religion as a bunch of rules you have to follow if you want to go to Heaven or whatever, like when Pintel and Ragetti where talking about reading the Bible... and getting "credit". hahaha. But then Jack, who has probably nothing to do with religion, has a strong thread of honor in him, as evidence by his refusal to carry slaves... its like he knows this isnt about doing enough good things or whatever and being all hypocritical.

I think we will pretty much know where Liz's heart stands the second she first sees Jack in the next film. Cause if she truly loves him at all, it will have to show, when she thought she had lost him.

A toast to Wikipedia, where i learn pretty much everything i need to know! 🙂

PS Wikipedia def. seems to be rooting for Jack to get Liz. so much for non-biased. lol.

so you know everytime Jack touches Liz, there is this adorable shyness in the way he does it, balanced out with his flirtatiousness.
After, of course, the first scene where he rescues her. But even in that, he really isnt as touchy feely as he could have been in that awkward situation... he sort of smells her hair when she is putting his belt around him, and seems delighted just to look at her....
On the island, when he puts his arm around her (even though he is completely toasted) he doesnt just grab her aggressively, he sort of does it one finger at a time... carefully... sort of wondering how she will react, and wanting to savor the moment. And then, during the curiousity scene, once again he doesnt just grab her, he lightly carresses her face, slowely with the back of his hand... almost like he is afraid to touch her, he wants to so much, but he is trying to hold himself back...

and then the explosion of tension... the kiss.... notice his hands pretty much stay put.... Liz is the one holding on to him. He seems overwhelmed that he is in fact getting to know what it tastes like....

Its just funny because you'd imagine, with any other woman, he'd just grab her and have his way with her... but with Liz, there is this shyness that seems to take place. its so charming and interesting. 🙂

Of course, i could be imagining things.

I need to stop watching the Kiss scene. Everytime, without fail, heart palpatations. Its just such good movie-making. seriously. I love that. I love the music, the shots they get (i love how Gibbs blocks will's view) the fact that as much as we see of it, we don't see enough; we still feel we want to see WAY MORE.... just as Liz and Jack didnt really get as much as they wanted from each other either....

I am officially going crazy. hahah I need to stop thinking about Jack and Pirates of the Caribbean. My thoughts yo yo back between thinking that Disney might stick Liz with Will to hoping that Jack will win the lady. Worrying over their love life is taking over my own life. I dont think i can last till... next.... May.. ❌

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i know... sometimes i think the same thing.

BUT WE WILL NOT GIVE UP HOPE!!! 🙂

Think about it though..Even the children's favorite character is Jack..they will be like "why didn't she end up with Jack? He's my favorite character"🙁 Kids don't like being disappointed either 😂

So who the heck is the "Happy Disney Will ending" actually for?..the tiny section of the Will supporters? thats hardly anyone..

Wouldn't you think that Disney would like to please everyone and end with a bang... instead of a whimper..even if Will becomes a stronger character..they still have to make the movie all about Jack. Will cant beat Jack otherwise people will be pissed..it would make Jack look as it he is the weaker character..unless he gives up Liz to Will which would make him look honorable...BAH..people will still be dissapointed though if that happens..