LOL^^ its like.."let me join you on your sea adventure Jack??..PLEASEEE???"
yeah I agree with you on what you say 🙂
I also notice that Jack could have told her the truth about what he did to Will..but he didn't because he obviously didn't want to make her upset with him..if he didnt care that he might lose her friendship in the future then he would have said what he really did to him..but no..he wants her to be there in his life.. 🙂
Originally posted by katelovespirate
"that's my good old Jack"-- LovelyOne, i love that. So charming. Its funny how both Liz and Will seem sooooo happy to have Jack back in their lives, for better or worse, i bet they were pretty bored without him.And it's interesting that Liz goes to Jack when she is lookin for Will... i mean, logically she should have stayed where she was in case Will was already on his way home, but instead she goes straight for Tortuga. And while she's there, she doesnt seem to be looking for Will at all. IMO. And the way she says "I know Will came to find you, where is he?" sounds a bit strange. it just doesnt seem like she IS too excited about finding him.
But as usual, i could be blowing things way out of proportion.
I'm am like the biggest Jack/Liz fan but I don't think that this true. She leaves because she longs for adventure and freedom...she couldn't stay, her father had already sprung her - she may have faced death before Will even returned. She goes to Jack, cuz Will told her that's where he was going....to find Jack. But I love it how when Will tells her he's leaving to find Jack to get the compass, she's like "i believe in both of you." I think she is intrigued with the idea that she might run into dear old Captain Jack, when she sets out on her adventure. Remember that look on her face at the end of POTC when Jack says: I'm sorry, Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling." As she turns back around it's kind of like, "OMG I never thought he was even interested in me and now he's saying that like there was something between us." It gets her thinking. "What would it be like If Jack and I were a couple. After all, he is a dashing pirate, something i've always fantasised about. " Jack and Liz's very first scene togther - she looks at him like she can't take her eyes off of him, she is so intrigued by him....and the fact that he holds her at gunpoint gets her even more excited (secretly).....remember she tells the handmaidened, "Oh, frightening" - but not really you can tell by the look on her face and slight smile. She secretly found it very exciting.
Yeah Jack is very "in the moment" which i love. Lizzie is more that way. Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)
I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea. I know we've been over this a thousand times, but he really doesnt want to row away at all. He just cant believe he actually fell for her. He cant believe he is putting other people's lives before his own, he cant believe how un-piraty he is acting. But going back is all worth it... lol.
If Liz is anything like me, when she calls Jack coward, it is more of frustration and sense of abandonment than actual anger toward Jack... Liz knows he is a pirate, but she has been seeing more and more humanity, depth, and good from him. She feels sudden loss because she is thinking that he left HER, not just the crew. He isnt there for HER, when she wants him to be. She really doesnt think or ever has thought he was a real coward, but rather, was really upset he didnt care about her enough to stay.
Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling. 🙂
There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... 😉 and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.
How many more threads can be started for this topic???? i am confused on threads right now. Its like we have to post our theories on a billion different threads, LOL. 🙂
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I'm am like the biggest Jack/Liz fan but I don't think that this true. She leaves because she longs for adventure and freedom...she couldn't stay, her father had already sprung her - she may have faced death before Will even returned. She goes to Jack, cuz Will told her that's where he was going....to find Jack. But I love it how when Will tells her he's leaving to find Jack to get the compass, she's like "i believe in both of you." I think she is intrigued with the idea that she might run into dear old Captain Jack, when she sets out on her adventure. Remember that look on her face at the end of POTC when Jack says: I'm sorry, Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling." As she turns back around it's kind of like, "OMG I never thought he was even interested in me and now he's saying that like there was something between us." It gets her thinking. "What would it be like If Jack and I were a couple. After all, he is a dashing pirate, something i've always fantasised about. " Jack and Liz's very first scene togther - she looks at him like she can't take her eyes off of him, she is so intrigued by him....and the fact that he holds her at gunpoint gets her even more excited (secretly).....remember she tells the handmaidened, "Oh, frightening" - but not really you can tell by the look on her face and slight smile. She secretly found it very exciting.
absolutely. beautifully put. i have been meaning to bring up that moment at the end of the 1st one, but you covered it perfectly. That is EXACTLY what she is thinking! lol.
She totally found it exciting. She is obsessed with pirates, and here is her fantasy come to life. Of course, she doesnt really know who she is yet (she is young) and so goes with the tamer version of her fantasy (Will- a pirate, but not really). But now, she doesnt want the tame version anymore...
Originally posted by katelovespirate
Yeah Jack is very "in the moment" which i love. Lizzie is more that way. Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea. I know we've been over this a thousand times, but he really doesnt want to row away at all. He just cant believe he actually fell for her. He cant believe he is putting other people's lives before his own, he cant believe how un-piraty he is acting. But going back is all worth it... lol.
If Liz is anything like me, when she calls Jack coward, it is more of frustration and sense of abandonment than actual anger toward Jack... Liz knows he is a pirate, but she has been seeing more and more humanity, depth, and good from him. She feels sudden loss because she is thinking that he left HER, not just the crew. He isnt there for HER, when she wants him to be. She really doesnt think or ever has thought he was a real coward, but rather, was really upset he didnt care about her enough to stay.
Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling. 🙂There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... 😉 and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.
How many more threads can be started for this topic???? i am confused on threads right now. Its like we have to post our theories on a billion different threads, LOL. 🙂
OH MY!! you are so right..seriously you are amazing with words. 🤣
I agree with you on the whole him trying to be in denial over her thing and sailing away. If that scene wasnt REALLY about him going back for her then that leg clinging part didn't need to be in there at all. That one moment is where we truly see what Jack means to her. Him stepping on the gun looking down at her is basically: "I'm here for you liz" and the way she's staring up at him completley in awe "you came back for ME"..he picks up the gun and she has such a confidence in her face like she knows Jack could pull it off without a doubt all the fear is gone from her face. Then she clings to his leg like he is her ultimate protection..her hero..aww..
She didnt show that confidence in Will when he handed her the gun and said he was going to go up there with the gun powder..she had a uncertain look on her face as if she was trying to convince herself that everything was going to be ok and that Will would pull it off...which he didnt really did he? He got stuck.
Exactly! i could go on and on about this scene. seriously. its masterful. She sees Jack as something that is strong and will protect her. She has had a pretty rough time of it without him- trying to kill the kraken, but she cant because of poor bumbling will getting stuck, then she gets dragged by the kraken and gets save by- guess who- pirates.... so she is pretty battered by the time Jack shows up. and then she just lets him handle everything from there, which he does, beautifully. its like, when worse comes to worse, Jack can make things right.
Will is constantly putting pressure on Liz--- pressure to act a certain way, pressure to get everything right, pressure to trust him without really giving her reasons to. Like at the end when he hands her the gun-- thats putting a LOT of pressure on her to back him up, asking her to shoot the gun after he gets it all together...
With Jack things always seem a bit more playful and experimental... which IMO is the way life should be... you cant always get everything right the first time. you have to learn stuff and grow through mistakes. Jack is there to pick up the pieces when she is slumming it: picks up the gun and takes care of that for her, helps her find a way to Will even though he probably guesses she and will are in an unstable place... and so makes sure there is time before she reaches Will to think about what she wants, etc... its him thats always encouraging her to give up the expected and be who she is.
I am not making this very clear, but basically the point I am getting at is:
Will tends to make her rely on HIMSELF a lot, while Jack is teaching her to rely on HERSELF, to be strong in that. But he is always ready to step in when she needs him.
Yes, he doesn't tell her the truth about Will because he doens't want her to know that he's done something selfish to Will. He does want to be "admired" by her. Yeah I love that look on her face after he makes the "no dress" comment. She looks a little shy, then is like "come on Jack, where's will..."
You are so right - from that scene all the way up to the kiss - each time they are together the flirting increases, she falls deeper and deeper under his spell. First we start with the "no dress", very next scene when he is explaining how the compass works, she's getting that little smile and giddy look on her face - I bet her stomach has butterflies when he's holding her hands around the compass.
Next is the persuade me conversation - Jack takes the flirting a step further, besides just suggesting he'd like to see her without clothes on, now he's suggesting something even more sexual, "Persuade Me."
Then she is daydreaming about him and what "Persuade Me" means, as witnessed by former commodore Norrington (who, by the way, I just love - he is a great character.)
Next is the "mar-ri-age" "I'm so ready to be married" the look on Jack's face is priceless - he suggests that he could perform a marriage so that she can "be married". I just love it when he says "Why Not..." this progresses into the "Curiosity" conversation and we all know how sexual this one becomes and almosts ends in a kiss. And she so wants Jack to kiss her - and the disappointment is so obvious in the fake, "I'm proud of you, Jack."
The beach scene - you can tell how hurt she is when she found out Jack was lying about Will. "What!"
Then it's the hanging on the leg sequence when "Hero" jack fires the shot, looking oh say Alpha Male. Ooo-la-la.
Finally, the kiss of death. Both of them wanted that kiss -bad. I just think every scene that Jack is wearing his coat is when he looks the sexiest... I don't know what it is about that coat - but he is soo HOTTTT when he is wearing it.....
I love rehasing these scenes - it's like seeing the movie all over again in my mind. I think I will go crazy waiting for it to come out on DVD>...
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Yes, he doesn't tell her the truth about Will because he doens't want her to know that he's done something selfish to Will. He does want to be "admired" by her. Yeah I love that look on her face after he makes the "no dress" comment. She looks a little shy, then is like "come on Jack, where's will..."You are so right - from that scene all the way up to the kiss - each time they are together the flirting increases, she falls deeper and deeper under his spell. First we start with the "no dress", very next scene when he is explaining how the compass works, she's getting that little smile and giddy look on her face - I bet her stomach has butterflies when he's holding her hands around the compass.
Next is the persuade me conversation - Jack takes the flirting a step further, besides just suggesting he'd like to see her without clothes on, now he's suggesting something even more sexual, "Persuade Me."
Then she is daydreaming about him and what "Persuade Me" means, as witnessed by former commodore Norrington (who, by the way, I just love - he is a great character.)
Next is the "mar-ri-age" "I'm so ready to be married" the look on Jack's face is priceless - he suggests that he could perform a marriage so that she can "be married". I just love it when he says "Why Not..." this progresses into the "Curiosity" conversation and we all know how sexual this one becomes and almosts ends in a kiss. And she so wants Jack to kiss her - and the disappointment is so obvious in the fake, "I'm proud of you, Jack."
The beach scene - you can tell how hurt she is when she found out Jack was lying about Will. "What!"
Then it's the hanging on the leg sequence when "Hero" jack fires the shot, looking oh say Alpha Male. Ooo-la-la.
Finally, the kiss of death. Both of them wanted that kiss -bad. I just think every scene that Jack is wearing his coat is when he looks the sexiest... I don't know what it is about that coat - but he is soo HOTTTT when he is wearing it.....I love rehasing these scenes - it's like seeing the movie all over again in my mind. I think I will go crazy waiting for it to come out on DVD>...
Speaking of Giddy, I AM getting giddy thinking about all this. SOOOO true all around. 🙂 yay.
I love the marriage bit.... I think Liz is shocked he brought it up. She has never looked at him as the marrying kind (actually he probably hasnt looked at himself that way either...) and what he brings up as sort of a flirtatious joke he actually refuses to drop:
"Why not? We are very much alike you and I... I and you... US."
SO HOTT moment. One of my fav. lines from the film. I mean, this is Jack SParrow! 🙂 In his mind, what starts out as a joke, suddenly makes sense to him. Why shouldnt they just get married? Heck, they are a lot alike, which Liz even ascertains after offering the perfunctory argument about hygeine or whatever, which Jack easily brushes aside, getting to heart of the matter.
Then, when they hit the island, and Jack agrees that everything he said to Liz was a lie, i think they both dont really care what he said about Will, but she is wondering if all his flirting was a lie. Now, typical Jack moment, he has just seen WIll and Liz kiss, is feeling jealous and surly, and so he gives her a little slap in the face with his yeah, it was pretty much all a lie.
But then of course, they both realize it wasnt a lie in the scene when Jack comes back to the pearl...
[QUOTE=7021998]Originally posted by katelovespirate
[B]Will is the planner of them. Not to say Jack doesnt make plans, but the way he carries them out is pretty go-with-the-flow (well, it has to be, as people are always screwing up his plans because they dont trust him.)
Great - this is so true. Jack really does have underlying plans -everything has a purpose, they all think he's being devious -just out for himself- and they don't trust him so they do it their way and his well-intended plans are screwed up.
I think When Jack is first rowing away from the Pearl during the kraken attack, that is HIS attempt to deny his feelings for Liz and convince himself that he is a true pirate and his only love is the sea.
I LOVE THIS THEORY. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY HE IS ROWING AWAY IN THE BOAT. HIS FACE IS FULL OF PAIN WHILE HE IS ROWING AWAY BUT THEN HE STOPS, LOOKS AT THE COMPASS AND IS LIKE "OKAY I CAN'T DO THIS TO SOMEONE I REALLY CARE ABOUT - I MUST GO BACK AND SAVE HER AND THEM -
Because obviously when he comes back, she isnt mad in the slightest. She's so glad to have someone to cling to and let handle the battle. lol.
i love that between them. I love that hero shot of Jack picking up the gun. so hott. such good storytelling. 🙂
Yes, indeed. This is one of my favorite scenes - because without words, this scene more than any other that takes place shows what is between jack and Elizabeth. I really think this is the most significant scene in the movie. The general public will not pick up on this.
There's also another theory about Jack and Liz's growing intimacy and friendship and possibly romance: the way he says her name. In the beginning it starts out "Ms. Swann" and Liz seems adamant about keeping it at that... cold and proper. Like, she is wanting to never have contact with him again. Then, by the end of the film, it is down to Elizabeth, and she doesnt seem to mind... 😉 and in the 2nd film we get to "lizzie".... a pet name you would only call someone you were extremely close to. Jack is always taking chances with her, seeing if he can take things a step furthur.
Well, he does in fact call her "Lizzie" when he is having the mar-ri-age conversation. Liz says, "I'm so ready to be married". Jack gets closer and says "You know" clears his throat "Lizzie. I am captain of a ship and being captain of a ship I could in fact perform a mar-ri-age right here, right on this deck, right now."
Katelovespirate I agree with you so much. Will didn't save her once! and yes its true about pirates being the ones that save her when she really needs it lol 😂
And lovethemtigers I agree with you 🙂
The fact he came back for her is what made her realise JACK IS WHAT SHE WANTS..but she's still not willing to accept it. I dont see that ending as her saying to jack "NO! its never going to happen, not a chance in the future" its actually saying "NO!..I can't LET this happen..because there IS a chance in the future" If she was so confident that there was never a chance with Jack then there would be no need for her to "get rid of him". She's forcing herself to go with Will because her mind is still split between what she wants and what she thinks she SHOULD be wanting which is Will..chaining Jack up is basically saying "see he means nothing to you Liz, You're happy with Will" but thats obviously not the case..you can SEE that she's having a hard time making herself believe that during the actual scene AND afterwards..
Also the very fact that she agrees to go and get Jack back again shows us that what she did wasn't REALLY for the others at all. Getting Jack back again would STILL mean davy Jones coming after them.
Because Jack just showed her that he can save the day when they are in trouble.. To make herself feel less guilty she probably kept that at the back of her mind when she chained him up.. She might have been trying to persuade herself that Jack could pop straight up again..
Originally posted by katelovespirate
Speaking of Giddy, I AM getting giddy thinking about all this. SOOOO true all around. 🙂 yay.
I love the marriage bit.... I think Liz is shocked he brought it up. She has never looked at him as the marrying kind (actually he probably hasnt looked at himself that way either...) and what he brings up as sort of a flirtatious joke he actually refuses to drop:
"Why not? We are very much alike you and I... I and you... US."
SO HOTT moment. One of my fav. lines from the film. I mean, this is Jack SParrow! 🙂 In his mind, what starts out as a joke, suddenly makes sense to him. Why shouldnt they just get married? Heck, they are a lot alike, which Liz even ascertains after offering the perfunctory argument about hygeine or whatever, which Jack easily brushes aside, getting to heart of the matter.Then, when they hit the island, and Jack agrees that everything he said to Liz was a lie, i think they both dont really care what he said about Will, but she is wondering if all his flirting was a lie. Now, typical Jack moment, he has just seen WIll and Liz kiss, is feeling jealous and surly, and so he gives her a little slap in the face with his yeah, it was pretty much all a lie.
But then of course, they both realize it wasnt a lie in the scene when Jack comes back to the pearl...
Wow this is great. The more we talk about this the more I truly believe we are picking up on what the Writers of this movie has intended. As said before, the general public that only watches it one time will never pick up on all the true meanings surrounding each scene.
You are so right...what starts out as a joke - he's like, wait a minute, maybe it's not such a bad idea.
Awesome.....I'm getting more and more excited about what lies ahead in Pirates 3.
OOOOOOOOHhhhh geeee..... ^^^^^ totally agree as usual. 🙂
If Disney doesnt get all this, that will be really dumb.
PS i was thinking about that hott scene (no i am not a sadist) when Will gets lashed, and it seems to me to bode similar happenings in the future. Like, his father gave him some pain to prevent someone else from giving him more pain.
So maybe in the next one, he will urge Will to drop Liz and give up piracy forever, giving him pain, but preventing others from giving him even more pain...
Originally posted by LovelyOne
Katelovespirate I agree with you so much. Will didn't save her once! and yes its true about pirates being the ones that save her when she really needs it lol 😂And lovethemtigers I agree with you 🙂
The fact he came back for her is what made her realise JACK IS WHAT SHE WANTS..but she's still not willing to accept it. I dont see that ending as her saying to jack "NO! its never going to happen, not a chance in the future" its actually saying "NO!..I can't LET this happen..because there IS a chance in the future" If she was so confident that there was never a chance with Jack then there would be no need for her to "get rid of him". She's forcing herself to go with Will because her mind is still split between what she wants and what she thinks she SHOULD be wanting which is Will..chaining Jack up is basically saying "see he means nothing to you Liz, You're happy with Will" but thats obviously not the case..you can SEE that she's having a hard time making herself believe that during the actual scene AND afterwards..
Also the very fact that she agrees to go and get Jack back again shows us that what she did wasn't REALLY for the others at all. Getting Jack back again would STILL mean davy Jones coming after them.
Because Jack just showed her that he can save the day when they are in trouble..I think Liz had a sort of feeling that Jack could pull it off again so she made him stay there in order to save her again.. She might have been thinking Jack would pop straight up again..
i think i am renaming the film "Beautiful complications".... LOL.... its like the more we uncover and hash out, the more there is to discuss. But there is this tangled feeling to all of it---- first we have this beautiful strong bond between Jack and Liz that has grown and developed, only checked by the boring old typical childhood sweetheart/fiance type thing.
I dont think Will would have ever turned even part-pirate if not for Liz. He grew up hating pirates and stood in the way what Jack wanted- (cough cough, as he does later) in the first one where he wont let him leave.
Liz always had the pirate fantasy and tried to make Will fit her fantasy... which he doesnt. But she tries to make it work anyways. Only it doesnt and it wont.
Liz has more faith in Jack than she even does in herself, IMO. And like you guys said earlier, "i have faith in both of you...." i agree that is secretly hoping to re-encounter Capn Jack. It makes her excited.
I love that Jack can read Lizzie like a book.
I edited my above post a bit 😂
Yeh I agree about the lashing scene. It seemed as if it wasn't really needed..but its probably going to echo something else later on..most likely what you say^^ It might be where someone is trying to persuade Will to cut his heart out but his dad steps in and does something to stop it.
His father is a constant reminder of what can happen to you if you are a pirate..thats going to put Will off of the lifestyle for good...
Originally posted by katelovespirate
i think i am renaming the film "Beautiful complications".... LOL.... its like the more we uncover and hash out, the more there is to discuss. But there is this tangled feeling to all of it---- first we have this beautiful strong bond between Jack and Liz that has grown and developed, only checked by the boring old typical childhood sweetheart/fiance type thing.I dont think Will would have ever turned even part-pirate if not for Liz. He grew up hating pirates and stood in the way what Jack wanted- (cough cough, as he does later) in the first one where he wont let him leave.
Liz always had the pirate fantasy and tried to make Will fit her fantasy... which he doesnt. But she tries to make it work anyways. Only it doesnt and it wont.Liz has more faith in Jack than she even does in herself, IMO. And like you guys said earlier, "i have faith in both of you...." i agree that is secretly hoping to re-encounter Capn Jack. It makes her excited.
I love that Jack can read Lizzie like a book.
I agree with you there. You can see Will really hates the pirate lifestyle..its just not his bag. I mean he tries to do it but its obviously not enough for Liz. His dad says to him "the life of a pirate is not the life I want for you" and Will says something like "You had the choice not to do it too" So Will clearly dislikes the whole pirate lifestyle..he doesn't even get a thrill from it does he?..the only thrill he got from it was the fact that liz liked it. I cant see a relationship working where one person has to keep the other happy all the time by doing something they dont really want.
Liz - trying to be less piratey for Will
Will - reluctantly trying to be a pirate for Liz but just not enough of one
I cant see how that could continue for a long time.
I think that because they cant add in the "brother/sister" aspect like star wars..its going to be the "we are two different people" thing..
I can seriously see it in the next one. Will and Liz having an argument and realising that they are in no way right for eachother..but then the whole Will/Davy aspect could also be the thing that breaks them up.
It might just be Liz who realises it and leaves him..which would make the davy/will thing happen
^^^ yes totally.
building on all that, we can just compare Liz and Will to Liz and Jack.
What about Will interests Liz? the fact that he may be a pirate and was discovered lost at sea. pretty romantic and mysterious, but Will's interest ends there. In that scene in the first movie when Will drops off the sword, he wont even call he Elizabeth, when she is telling him to. She gets mad at him for being proper.
Jack? He calles her Elizabeth from the moment he meets her, something Will hasnt been able to do for 8 years. He isnt a little boy with stars in his eyes, he is a man who knows who he is. (which is pretty much exactly what Liz wants, she just doesnt know it yet 😉.)
Liz doesnt want to be the one always leading in the relationship. She wants to get swept off her feet once in a while, to not know what is going to happen next. With Will its all extremely logical. By the time he finally gets around to telling her he likes her, he has already made it very difficult for her because she is engaged to Norrington (in some ways, his fault. if he had spoken sooner, she wouldnt have gotten engaged to n.) So they kiss, get engaged, and are going to get married and live happily ever after. thats it???! boring.
With Jack... who knows how things would go forward... it would be an adventure from day 1.