Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Started by lil bitchiness21 pages

What was his personality?
Sleeping with a 9 year old girl, who was still a child which didnt know what sex was.
That is called paedophilia.

Originally posted by lord xyz
This is a classic example of people who take things like the Quran out of context. It doesn't matter how bad Muhammed was, it's Islam beliefs that we're discussing.

Have you even read my post? Please go back and read my LAST post before this one.

Islam today in its practices and traditions is not different to Pre-Islamic pagan religion of Arabia! Muhammad brought NOTHING to the religion, apart from making up ONE God, which existed anyway alongside few more gods.

He also brought in violence and discrimination.

Show me what he brought which was good and new to the already existing religion!

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What was his personality?
Sleeping with a 9 year old girl, who was still a child which didnt know what sex was.
That is called paedophilia.

Have you even read my post? Please go back and read my LAST post before this one.

Islam today in its practices and traditions is not different to Pre-Islamic pagan religion of Arabia! Muhammad brought NOTHING to the religion, apart from making up ONE God, which existed anyway alongside few more gods.

He also brought in violence and discrimination.

Show me what he brought which was good and new to the already existing religion!

It sickens me how Muhammed is looked up to as a figure of good....people are so ignorant of his history, its incredible.

It's very much the way so many people glorify Christopher Colombus, yet do not know how he tortured and nearly exterminated the population of Native Americans.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Lets put it this way. As you know im a heathen and I follow the beliefs and philosophy of the Vikings. Vikings raped and pillaged, the difference is that I will blatantly admit that those people were evil. I wont try to make an excuse for their behaviour.

Historically, people often did things that are considered "evil."

Personally, I thin the word evil is a false construct because it is a relative term that is completely dependant on a number of factors, but there is no real value to it.

Even the most advanced cultures of all time have done "evil" things. You can find remnants of these things in practically all aspects of modern society.

So you think the Vikings were evil? But do you doubt the Viking's contributions to world culture? Do you insult the gods of the Vikings? No, you do not...and the Vikings are the Vikings and have nowhere near the historical and cultural legacy that Islam has. If the Vikings were around today and carried on their old fundamentalist ways, I bet the you would likely also be upset.

If someone came up to me and said "Thomas Jefferson was a evil and violent man." I would take offense to that. There may be basis to their claims, but I don't really see that as any particular or notable distinction. 400 years from now, people will talk about how violent and evil we were.

I'm not making excuses for anyone's historical behaviour...Muhammad's or Jefferson. However, I realize there is a historical context to their actions. Many of these mens actions are not acceptable today, does that mean that there is a fundamental flaw in Islam or the US? In my opinion it does not.

If I went around counting every black man as 3/5ths a person, I'd be wrong. But this is not Jefferson's fault...this would be MY fault. YOu can in no logical way blame Jefferson for not giving birth to the suffrage movement, but would be able to critique my actions today.

The PROBLEM lies in fundamentalist interpretation, not in the historical person.

<> Addressing the General Direction of the Thread <>

Who cares if Muhammad did "evil" things. Muhammad has been dead for hundreds of years and the religion that he founded is one of the greatest religions in the history of the planet.

Show me a nation that was not birthed from war and wrongdoing. These elements are the bedrock of every society. You can scream, whine, and cry, about it all you want, but Muhammad is one of the most influential men in history. There is a HISTORICAL CONTEXT to his actions and nothing you can do is going to destroy the man or the religion he founded.

Some people confuse confronting fundamentalism with a need to attack Islam. I think its obvious that this is exceedingly counterproductive. Giving the increasing xenophobia attacking the western world, I really question whether insulting a faith is a productive way to solve this problem, especially since many people who do so have trouble seeing past their own nose or examining the historical parallels/other sides of this issue.

Its obvious that LITERALISM and FUNDAMENTALISM are the problems here. These problems are easily exploited by impoverished and neglected governments who can use fundamentalism to create ultra-nationalist and organized states. Its obvious that the US and Western Europe were two busy "fighting" communism to realize they were destroying the Middle East.

Religion gave these nations a unified voice against the west. Unfortunately, this rhetoric came from the reactionary elements of society and not from the progressive ones (See Latin America).

Hence the spread of this type of ideology and since, in many ways, they are correct in their criticism of the West, the moderate elements have stood down, because they are certainly not going to support the west and fear the radical elements.

Main Point: This issue is a modern-day political problem, it has essentially nothing to do with the "moral worth" of some man who lived in the 600's CE.

Personal Point (for some people more than others): For people that seem to have trouble arguing points, personal attacks are not going to work. I'm not an international authority on Islam, but I'm not ignorant on the subject. Its excessively obvious when people cant argue (wither because they are too unintelligent or simply don't have points) and more an just insult either my nationality or my religion as a way to score points.

Its also obvious when people are caught up in their propaganda. Most religions have done the SAME things that Islam has done. Islam is not special in any way. This further proves the point that the main source of this problem is a general ideology and a modern context, not any specific characteristic of a religion.

Originally posted by Alliance
Historically, people often did things that are considered "evil."

Personally, I thin the word evil is a false construct because it is a relative term that is completely dependant on a number of factors, but there is no real value to it.

Even the most advanced cultures of all time have done "evil" things. You can find remnants of these things in practically all aspects of modern society.

So you think the Vikings were evil? But do you doubt the Viking's contributions to world culture? Do you insult the gods of the Vikings? No, you do not...and the Vikings are the Vikings and have nowhere near the historical and cultural legacy that Islam has. If the Vikings were around today and carried on their old fundamentalist ways, I bet the you would likely also be upset.

If someone came up to me and said "Thomas Jefferson was a evil and violent man." I would take offense to that. There may be basis to their claims, but I don't really see that as any particular or notable distinction. 400 years from now, people will talk about how violent and evil we were.

I'm not making excuses for anyone's historical behaviour...Muhammad's or Jefferson. However, I realize there is a historical context to their actions. Many of these mens actions are not acceptable today, does that mean that there is a fundamental flaw in Islam or the US? In my opinion it does not.

If I went around counting every black man as 3/5ths a person, I'd be wrong. But this is not Jefferson's fault...this would be MY fault. YOu can in no logical way blame Jefferson for not giving birth to the suffrage movement, but would be able to critique my actions today.

The PROBLEM lies in fundamentalist interpretation, not in the historical person.

<> Addressing the General Direction of the Thread <>

Who cares if Muhammad did "evil" things. Muhammad has been dead for hundreds of years and the religion that he founded is one of the greatest religions in the history of the planet.

Show me a nation that was not birthed from war and wrongdoing. These elements are the bedrock of every society. You can scream, whine, and cry, about it all you want, but Muhammad is one of the most influential men in history. There is a HISTORICAL CONTEXT to his actions and nothing you can do is going to destroy the man or the religion he founded.

Some people confuse confronting fundamentalism with a need to attack Islam. I think its obvious that this is exceedingly counterproductive. Giving the increasing xenophobia attacking the western world, I really question whether insulting a faith is a productive way to solve this problem, especially since many people who do so have trouble seeing past their own nose or examining the historical parallels/other sides of this issue.

Its obvious that LITERALISM and FUNDAMENTALISM are the problems here. These problems are easily exploited by impoverished and neglected governments who can use fundamentalism to create ultra-nationalist and organized states. Its obvious that the US and Western Europe were two busy "fighting" communism to realize they were destroying the Middle East.

Religion gave these nations a unified voice against the west. Unfortunately, this rhetoric came from the reactionary elements of society and not from the progressive ones (See Latin America).

Hence the spread of this type of ideology and since, in many ways, they are correct in their criticism of the West, the moderate elements have stood down, because they are certainly not going to support the west and fear the radical elements.

Main Point: This issue is a modern-day political problem, it has essentially nothing to do with the "moral worth" of some man who lived in the 600's CE.

Personal Point (for some people more than others): For people that seem to have trouble arguing points, personal attacks are not going to work. I'm not an international authority on Islam, but I'm not ignorant on the subject. Its excessively obvious when people cant argue (wither because they are too unintelligent or simply don't have points) and more an just insult either my nationality or my religion as a way to score points.

Its also obvious when people are caught up in their propaganda. Most religions have done the SAME things that Islam has done. Islam is not special in any way. This further proves the point that the main source of this problem is a general ideology and a modern context, not any specific characteristic of a religion.

*sigh* I dunno I might reply to this post later, I just feel im going around in circles. About the Vikings, the seem to have contributed alot more to the West than people give credit for, but you probably no more about this than I do.

You blame Islam for terrorist act in Beslan, so yes YOU ARE ignorant.
And you give link to song "Islam's not for me" on religion forum, so yes you just hate muslims.

"Violence" Pagans hated Mohammad and hounded him with intention to kill him because they didn't like his WORDS. They tortured and murdered his followers only to make them say they do not worship Allah anymore. If you don't concider that it is a violance then what is? That's the kind of people Mohhamad was fighting against, in our time people'd call that selfdefence.
"Paedophilia"
"Polygamy"
I want to pointout that majority of people have no idea what word "marriage" ment in the muslim world at that time. It's not that you find yourself a pretty girl, marry her and have sex with her. If one muslim dies, his friend was taking friend's wife as his own, and it'd mean he'll take responsibility of taking care of her, to give her place to live and to treat her like his closest realative. A lot of muslims were killed at that time so their friends were forced to have many "wives", that is where polygamy came from. He married Aisha in respect to his friend and to strengthen their friendship. So if you look at it from normal point of view you'd see that polygamy was a noble act and NOT the way to get more girls at the same time.
"A vengeful sadistic Deity" Islam is a realigion of peace. This've been dabted on this forum hundred times and i don't feel like givving quotes (again) from Qur'an to prove (again) that Islam being violant is BS. People just keep ripping small frases from context and pervert it to support their own ideas. And whenever i give entire quotes to these people and explain their meaning they just go and repost their own quotes on different thread. So this is pointless, noone'd listen. As for what Islam gave to people, they worshipped rocks before... As for other things here's a nice video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j41E8DN7yLA
This is how it all happens. You hate Islam, you look for the book with propoganda against it, and this book is written by another person that also hates Islam and that perverted hystory and facts in favoure of his sick ideas to write this book. This makes you hate Islam more.
Not that i care, because i see that arguing to such people is pointless, at least don't try to sound like you are the only person that knows The Truth, because you only know and hear what you want to hear. And i'm not arguing, i simply explain things to other people that do not hate Islam so they's understand that what you say is only your own view on the subject. Anyway...
Salam aleykom, habibty.

Originally posted by Sam Z

"Violence" Pagans hated Mohammad and hounded him with intention to kill him because they didn't like his WORDS.

I dont think the Arab pagans were perfect either but didn't they give him an ultimatum? Didn't they say you can follow you're religon but leave us alone? When somebody tells you to leave them alone but you don't stop you are asking for trouble.

I dont see whats so peaceful about Mohammed anyway. Abu talib stuck up for him but he still went to hell because he would not accept Islam. So you can see Islam is not about integration.

Furthermore if Mohammed was so peaceful why did he smash the idols when he came back into Mecca? Why didn't he leave them alone to worship their idols? So I can see why they acted violently because he was trying to destroy their way of life and thats what he did.

Oh yes Mohammed allowed his followers to rape women on the battlefield. There is a hadith that describes what happened. Ali took some pagan women and raped her. This is not something I got from a site or from lil, I got this info from an Islamic scholar. I first heard about this incident in a book called Women In Islam, I could not belive it and it turned out to be true.

Gimmie a break! There also hadiths desribing how women are inferior to men....the list goes on.....shhhhessshhh.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What was his personality?
Sleeping with a 9 year old girl, who was still a child which didnt know what sex was.
That is called paedophilia.

Have you even read my post? Please go back and read my LAST post before this one.

Islam today in its practices and traditions is not different to Pre-Islamic pagan religion of Arabia! Muhammad brought NOTHING to the religion, apart from making up ONE God, which existed anyway alongside few more gods.

He also brought in violence and discrimination.

Show me what he brought which was good and new to the already existing religion!

this information to show you the reason that prophet mohammed marry 9 years old girl (Aisha)

Aishah
Aishah was the daughter of one of the closest companions of Prophet Muhammad, Abu Bakr. An old friend of the Prophet, Abu Bakr was one of the earliest converts to the faith and was considered to be the most sincere, earnest, and devoted in faith. Seeing the loss of the Prophet, one of the woman companions proposed Abu Bakr’s daughter to him and approached Abu Bakr on behalf of the Prophet. But there were two problems. One, Aishah was already betrothed to Jubair bin Mut’im, a pagan Meccan. Jubair, it turned out, had lost interest because of the wide gulf between paganism and Islam. In addition, Aishah had not yet reached puberty, and this also contributed to Jubair’s disinterest in pursuing the betrothal. Thus, she was betrothed to the Prophet while still in Mecca, and three years later, when both were in Medina and she had reached puberty, he consummated his marriage. She was the only virgin he married, though they did not have any children. Aishah was a leading scholar of Islam and played a pivotal role in the establishment of the Islamic civilization. She taught for forty years after the death of the Prophet until her death at the age of sixty-seven.

Show me what he brought which was good and new to the already existing religion! [/B][/QUOTE]

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” (American Standard Version)

In this verse, Jesus promises that another “Comforter” will appear, and thus, we must discuss some issues concerning this “Comforter.”

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’ Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’[1] The ho parakletos is a person in the Greek language, not an incorporeal entity. In the Greek language, every noun possesses gender; that is, it is masculine, feminine or neutral. In the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16 the ho parakletos is actually a person. All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer and the pronoun “he” is used when referring to the parakletos. The NT uses the word pneuma, which means “breath” or “spirit,” the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for “spirit” used in the OT. Pneuma is a grammatically neutral word and is always represented by the pronoun “it.”

All present day Bibles are compiled from “ancient manuscripts,” the oldest dating back the fourth century C.E. No two ancient manuscripts are identical.[2] All Bibles today are produced by combining manuscripts with no single definitive reference. The Bible translators attempt to “choose” the correct version. In other words, since they do not know which “ancient manuscript” is the correct one, they decide for us which “version” for a given verse to accept. Take John 14:26 as an example. John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But the “ancient manuscripts” are not in agreement that the “Parakletos” is the ‘Holy Spirit.’ For instance, the famous Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai, the text of 14:26 reads; “Paraclete, the Spirit”; and not “Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.”

Why is it important? It is significant because in biblical language a “spirit,” simply means “a prophet.”

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”[3]

It is instructive to know that several biblical scholars considered parakletos to be an ‘independent salvific (having the power to save) figure,’ not the Holy Ghost.[4]

The question, then, is: was Jesus’ parakletos, Comforter, a ‘Holy Ghost’ or a person - a prophet - to come after him? To answer the question, we must understand the description of ho parakletos and see if it fits a ghost or a human being.

i advice you to read more about islam ,western media is partial .

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh* I dunno I might reply to this post later, I just feel im going around in circles. About the Vikings, the seem to have contributed alot more to the West than people give credit for, but you probably no more about this than I do.

Sorry, It was a long post. You don't need to reply to all of it, (or reply at all) The Vikings contributed, but nowhere near as much as Islam, but thats not really the point, I was just giving examples.

The point is blaming Muhammad for actions that are TODAY morally unacceptable is stupid. THEN saying that Islam is worthless becuase it is based on Muhammad is even more idiotic.

The blame lies with fundamentalist leaders today. Thats how ALL periods in EVERY religion have thier extremeist periods. Singling out Islam as different when its blatantly not differnent form alomst all other religons, is an intellectually false argument.

Originally posted by Fatima
this information to show you the reason that prophet mohammed marry 9 years old girl (Aisha)

Aishah
Aishah was the daughter of one of the closest companions of Prophet Muhammad, Abu Bakr. An old friend of the Prophet, Abu Bakr was one of the earliest converts to the faith and was considered to be the most sincere, earnest, and devoted in faith. Seeing the loss of the Prophet, one of the woman companions proposed Abu Bakr’s daughter to him and approached Abu Bakr on behalf of the Prophet. But there were two problems. One, Aishah was already betrothed to Jubair bin Mut’im, a pagan Meccan. Jubair, it turned out, had lost interest because of the wide gulf between paganism and Islam. In addition, Aishah had not yet reached puberty, and this also contributed to Jubair’s disinterest in pursuing the betrothal. Thus, she was betrothed to the Prophet while still in Mecca, and three years later, when both were in Medina and she had reached puberty, he consummated his marriage. She was the only virgin he married, though they did not have any children. Aishah was a leading scholar of Islam and played a pivotal role in the establishment of the Islamic civilization. She taught for forty years after the death of the Prophet until her death at the age of sixty-seven

John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.” (American Standard Version)

In this verse, Jesus promises that another “Comforter” will appear, and thus, we must discuss some issues concerning this “Comforter.”

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’ Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’[1] The ho parakletos is a person in the Greek language, not an incorporeal entity. In the Greek language, every noun possesses gender; that is, it is masculine, feminine or neutral. In the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16 the ho parakletos is actually a person. All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer and the pronoun “he” is used when referring to the parakletos. The NT uses the word pneuma, which means “breath” or “spirit,” the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for “spirit” used in the OT. Pneuma is a grammatically neutral word and is always represented by the pronoun “it.”

All present day Bibles are compiled from “ancient manuscripts,” the oldest dating back the fourth century C.E. No two ancient manuscripts are identical.[2] All Bibles today are produced by combining manuscripts with no single definitive reference. The Bible translators attempt to “choose” the correct version. In other words, since they do not know which “ancient manuscript” is the correct one, they decide for us which “version” for a given verse to accept. Take John 14:26 as an example. John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But the “ancient manuscripts” are not in agreement that the “Parakletos” is the ‘Holy Spirit.’ For instance, the famous Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai, the text of 14:26 reads; “Paraclete, the Spirit”; and not “Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.”

Why is it important? It is significant because in biblical language a “spirit,” simply means “a prophet.”

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”[3]

It is instructive to know that several biblical scholars considered parakletos to be an ‘independent salvific (having the power to save) figure,’ not the Holy Ghost.[4]

The question, then, is: was Jesus’ parakletos, Comforter, a ‘Holy Ghost’ or a person - a prophet - to come after him? To answer the question, we must understand the description of ho parakletos and see if it fits a ghost or a human being.

i advice you to read more about islam ,western media is partial .

Incidentally, I am not westener, and for most part western Media is not only bias, but down right stupid. I tend not to pay a lot of attention to it.

As far as Aisha goes -
I am familiar with who she was, and I am also familiar with the fact that Muhammad had said to Abu Aakr that by the order of Allah, he is to marry Aisha (she was then six years old) to unite the families.

I am also familiar with the fact that he had died in her arms, and she was his favourite wife.

He consumed his marriage with Aisha when she was 9 year old, as she so herself says.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, No. 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

And this is paedophilia - Muhammad was 54 years old, and Aisha was only 9! -

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Fatima, with all due respect, do you not see anything disturbing in the passage above?
This is a 54 year old man, having sex, and playing with a 9 year old girl, not yet reached puberty.

And this is directly from Islamic sources, including Aisha herself. This passage sends a cold shiver down my spine.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Incidentally, I am not westener, and for most part western Media is not only bias, but down right stupid. I tend not to pay a lot of attention to it.

Yet, you pay attention to Robert Spencer and his xenophobic propoganda machine. You call the west biased, but you live and breathe ultra-conservative reactionary propoganda more biased than the "west."

You praise the David Horowitz Freedom Center, a blatant Orwellian title that supports the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Shawn Hannity, and Robert Spencer.

You praise the Middle East Media Research Institute a WESTERN organization. MEMRI has been highly criticised, even by former US ambassador Willian Rugh (UAE and Yemen) as "not present[ing] a balanced or complete picture of the Arab print media. Its owners are pro-Israeli and anti-Arab. Quotes are selected to portray Arabs as preaching hatred against Jews and westerners, praising violence and refusing any peaceful settlement of the Palestinian issue."

In 1998 the MEMRI website stated that the purpose of their oragnizaiton was to spread "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel." They also seem to just do a wonderful job of finding the worst possible aspects of Islam and spreading them as widely as they possibly can.

So you do pay a lot of attention to the "western media" which you claim to hate so much. Let me assure you, the credible media here is not half as biased as the crap that you support.

So really, you are both a hypocrite and incorrect.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh yes Mohammed allowed his followers to rape women on the battlefield. There is a hadith that describes what happened. Ali took some pagan women and raped her. This is not something I got from a site or from lil, I got this info from an Islamic scholar. I first heard about this incident in a book called Women In Islam, I could not belive it and it turned out to be true.
You said you used to be a muslim. If that's true you are supposed to know that in Islam having sex is already a sin, and if you have it not with your wife, then it's a horrible sin. That's what Mohammad was teaching, and now you want me to believe that at the same time he was telling everyone to rape women? Gimme a break. I already explained above what was polygamy about and what was marrieage to Aisha, and as for violance, they wanted Mohammad and all his followers dead. I can quote Qur'an all day to prove that it is not violant but we are running circles, so you know what, whatever...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
[b]And this is paedophilia - Muhammad was 54 years old, and Aisha was only 9! [/B]
So, this is at the time when people married their siblings, gave their family and friends up for slavery etc.

In fact, some of that stuff is happening today. Why are complaining about people who respect someone who did that (even though they respect him for a different reason) instead of complaining about people who do do that in the Western world?

Oh and I still don't understand how the life of Muhammed reflects Islam. It's like saying the education of a maths teacher reflects on his/her students mathamatical ability. Which it doesn't.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Oh and I still don't understand how the life of Muhammed reflects Islam.

This is a nice phrasing of a large chunk of my earlier essay.

Originally posted by Alliance
This is a nice phrasing of a large chunk of my earlier essay.
It is?

edit: Oh I see what you mean.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think the Arab pagans were perfect either but didn't they give him an ultimatum? Didn't they say you can follow you're religon but leave us alone? When somebody tells you to leave them alone but you don't stop you are asking for trouble.

I dont see whats so peaceful about Mohammed anyway. Abu talib stuck up for him but he still went to hell because he would not accept Islam. So you can see Islam is not about integration.

Furthermore if Mohammed was so peaceful why did he smash the idols when he came back into Mecca? Why didn't he leave them alone to worship their idols? So I can see why they acted violently because he was trying to destroy their way of life and thats what he did.

Oh yes Mohammed allowed his followers to rape women on the battlefield. There is a hadith that describes what happened. Ali took some pagan women and raped her. This is not something I got from a site or from lil, I got this info from an Islamic scholar. I first heard about this incident in a book called Women In Islam, I could not belive it and it turned out to be true.

Gimmie a break! There also hadiths desribing how women are inferior to men....the list goes on.....shhhhessshhh.

i think you ignorance of Islam , and women in Islam

Ali rape women ...thats nuts ......i m amuslem and i never heard that or read it ....

Today people think that women are liberated in the West and that the Women’s liberation movement began in the 20th century. Actually, the women’s liberation movement was not begun by women, but was revealed by God to a man in the seventh century by the name of Muhammad, may God praise him, who is known as the last Prophet of Islam. The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet are the sources from which every Muslim woman derives her rights and duties.

Human Rights
Islam, fourteen centuries ago, made women equally accountable to God in glorifying and worshipping Him – setting no limits on her moral progress. Also, Islam established a woman’s equality in her humanity with men. In the Quran, in the first verse of the chapter entitled “Women”, God says:

“O mankind! Be careful of your duty toward your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it its mate and from them both have spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward God in Whom you claim (your rights) of one another, and towards the wombs (that bore you). Lo! God has been a Watcher over you.” (Quran 4:1)

Since men and women both came from the same essence, they are equal in their humanity. Women cannot be by nature evil (as some religions believe) or then men would be evil also. Similarly, neither gender can be superior because it would be a contradiction to equality.

Civil Rights
In Islam, a woman has the basic freedoms of choice and expression based on recognition of her individual personality. First, she is free to choose her religion. The Quran states:

“There is no compulsion in religion. Right has been made distinct from error.” (Quran 2:256)

Women are encouraged in Islam to contribute their opinions and ideas. There are many traditions of the Prophet which indicate that women would pose questions directly to him and offer their opinions concerning religion, economics and social matters.

A Muslim woman has full right to approve or deny a proposal of marriage, and her name is to be kept after marriage. A Muslim woman’s testimony is valid in legal disputes. In fact, where women are more familiar, their evidence is conclusive.

Social Rights
The Prophet said:

“Seeking knowledge is a mandate for every Muslim (male and female).” (At-Tirmidhi)

This includes knowledge of the Quran and the Hadeeth as well as other types of knowledge. Men and women both have the capacity for learning and understanding. Since it is also their obligation to promote good behavior and condemn bad behavior in all spheres of life, Muslim women must acquire the appropriate education to perform this duty in accordance with their own natural talents and interests.

While bearing, raising and the teaching of children, and providing support to her husband and maintenance of a home are among the first, and very highly regarded, roles for a woman, if she has the skills to work outside the home for the good of the community, she may do, so as long as her family obligations are met.

Islam recognizes and fosters the natural differences between men and women despite their equality. Some types of work are more suitable for men and other types for women. This in no way diminishes either’s efforts or benefits. God will reward both sexes equally for the value of their work, through, it may not necessarily be the same activity.

Concerning motherhood, the Prophet said:

“Heaven lies under her feet.” (An-Nasai)

This implies that the success of a society can be traced to the mothers who raised it. The first and greatest influence on a person comes from the sense of security, affection, and training received from the mother. Therefore, a woman having children must be educated and conscientious in order to be a skillful parent.

Political Rights
A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, as narrated in the Quran (60:12), where Muhammad is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government which suit her role as a woman. Abdurrahman Ibn Affan consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.

Economic Rights
The Quran states:

“By the creation of the male and female; Verily, (the ends) you strive for are diverse.” (Quran 92:3-4)

In these verses, God declares that He created men and women to be different, with unique roles, functions and skills. As in society, where there is a division of labor, so too in a family, each member has different responsibilities. Generally, Islam upholds that women are entrusted with the nurturing role, and men, with the guardian role. Therefore, women are given the right of financial support.

The Quran states:

“Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend of their wealth (for the support of women).” (Quran 4:34)

This guardianship and greater financial responsibility given to men requires that they provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind respectful treatment.

Muslim women have the privilege to earn money, the right to own property, to enter into legal contracts and to manage all of her assets in any way she pleases. She can run her own business and no one has any claim on her earnings, including her husband.

The Quran states:

“And in no wise covet those things in which God hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others; to men is allotted what they earn, and to women, what they earn; but ask God of His bounty for God hath full knowledge of all things.” (Quran 4:32)

A woman inherits from her relatives. The Quran states:

“For men there is a share in what parents and relatives leave, and for women there is a share of what parents and relatives leave, whether it be little or much – an ordained share.” (Quran 4:7)

Originally posted by lord xyz
So, this is at the time when people married their siblings, gave their family and friends up for slavery etc.

In fact, some of that stuff is happening today. Why are complaining about people who respect someone who did that (even though they respect him for a different reason) instead of complaining about people who do do that in the Western world?

Oh and I still don't understand how the life of Muhammed reflects Islam. It's like saying the education of a maths teacher reflects on his/her students mathamatical ability. Which it doesn't.


The ignorance and the arrogance of certain people is just mind nubing...

Arabs had codes of morality, you know!

Before Muhammad came along, marrying your cousin in Pre-Islamic Pagan arabia was forbidden.
Why don't you look into that, hm?

Also, since you are also a ''useful idiot'' i must repet myself several times, because you are too lazy to read a book -

Muslims refer to Muhammad as al-insan al-kamil, which in translation means ''The Perfect Man''. A man to be looked up to, and a man to be followed.

The more Muslims is like him, the better off he is. Muhammad is the MOST IMPORTANT thing after Allah.

The very declaration you make, to become a Muslim is that there is no other god, but Allah, and that Muhammad is his prophet.

La ilah ilallah, Mohammed ur Rasulallah!

If you believe that Muhammad did anything that was not perfect, you ultimately believe he was not al insan al-kamil, and you ultimately do not believe that he was from Allah, which means you contradict his teachings, which means you contradict ISLAM.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The ignorance and the arrogance of certain people is just mind nubing...

Arabs had codes of morality, you know!

Before Muhammad came along, marrying your cousin in Pre-Islamic Pagan arabia was forbidden.
Why don't you look into that, hm?

Also, since you are also a ''useful idiot'' i must repet myself several times, because you are too lazy to read a book -

Muslims refer to Muhammad as al-insan al-kamil, which in translation means ''The Perfect Man''. A man to be looked up to, and a man to be followed.

The more Muslims is like him, the better off he is. Muhammad is the MOST IMPORTANT thing after Allah.

The very declaration you make, to become a Muslim is that there is no other god, but Allah, and that Muhammad is his prophet.

La ilah ilallah, Mohammed ur Rasulallah!

If you believe that Muhammad did anything that was not perfect, you ultimately believe he was not al insan al-kamil, and you ultimately do not believe that he was from Allah, which means you contradict his teachings, which means you contradict ISLAM.

Wow, talk about weak debating tactic.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Wow, talk about weak debating tactic.

Best you can come up with to rebute my argument....? Come on...

I have been called all kinds of names, and to hear what you wrote in your post before this one, did not fly too well.

Sorry for insult, if any was said.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Wow, talk about weak debating tactic.

No kidding.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The ignorance and the arrogance of certain people is just mind nubing...

Arabs had codes of morality, you know!

Before Muhammad came along, marrying your cousin in Pre-Islamic Pagan arabia was forbidden.
Why don't you look into that, hm?

Also, since you are also a ''useful idiot'' i must repet myself several times, because you are too lazy to read a book -

Muslims refer to Muhammad as al-insan al-kamil, which in translation means ''The Perfect Man''. A man to be looked up to, and a man to be followed.

The more Muslims is like him, the better off he is. Muhammad is the MOST IMPORTANT thing after Allah.

The very declaration you make, to become a Muslim is that there is no other god, but Allah, and that Muhammad is his prophet.

La ilah ilallah, Mohammed ur Rasulallah!

If you believe that Muhammad did anything that was not perfect, you ultimately believe he was not al insan al-kamil, and you ultimately do not believe that he was from Allah, which means you contradict his teachings, which means you contradict ISLAM.

You don't respond to arguments, you just use personal attacks.

You can't/haven't responded to serious attacks on your sources.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments about historical context.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments about the seperation between Muhammad and Islam.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments that the literalist interpretation of a faith is the issue, not the faith itself.

You can't/haven't responded to arguemtns that Islam is in many way no different from any other relgion in most aspects.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments that every religon goes through periods of relative extremeism.

So really, this burden is on you. You have done nothing but show the continuous flaw in your argument and you FAIL to address any inconsitancy with it.

muslim do not refer to prophet mohammed as perfect person , we just say the perfection is only for god , i dont say that mohammed didnt do anything wrong ..i mean he is human also , not angle

there is no 1 muslim said that the prophet is aperfect person .