Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Originally posted by Alfheim

The only reason why we are running in circles is because you dont listen! The fact of the matter is that Mohammed said it was ok to rape women on the battlfield, you are not even going to check it out are you? You're just going to ignore it because you dont like it. What are you telling me now you know more than an Islamic scholar?

Sam you are a complete waste of time. You make stuff up as you go along and you ignore anything you dont like. I mean when I first talked about Abraham you said it was ok for him to smash the idols and then afterwards you said it was wrong. You still have not answered my question about wether it was ok for Mohammed to smash the idols in the Kabah. You dont know wether you are coming or going.

It's funny, since I DID answered your question but you kept whining, and you on other hand never answered mine that i was asking you since our first debate. You never even tried to answer because you just couldn't. And if you can quote me saying that it is "ok" you deserve a candy. And enlighten me please what stuff I make up and what stuff i ignore? I commented on every bullcrap you or LB brought, including paedophilia and polygamy as a way of having group sex. Do you know why we run circles? Because you don't like Islam and you use LB's info as your basis and this info was written by other people that hate Islam. So doesn't matter what arguments I bring you'll ignore it because it's written in books with propaganda. What info do you want me to check? That Mohammad was teaching that sex is a sin and a moment later was telling his followers to go rape women? You're right. I'm not even going to waste time checking this because it controdicts not only muslim views but common sense and logic itself. You tried to prove that Qur'an teaches violance, you failed to prove it. Now you switched your attention on Mohammad and you want to prove that he was evil maniac. I don't know why you are so interested in proving all that, but you can't prove that as well because every your argument can be easilly disproved and it won't be an excuses but facts. Mohammad was killing people? Yes, but this people wanted him dead, they were killing and torturing his followers. He had many wives? Polygamy was not what people think it was, people were marrying wives of their killed friends and they were taking responsibility of taking care of them. Mohammad was married to Aisha? Yes, he was. And he was married to her to strengthen her father's and his relatioship. And he wasn't raping or torturing anybody. And thing you can compain about all day, but you can't disprove - Qur'an teaches peace.

I know I sound to you like a guy that doesn't want to admit anything bad about his religion, but on other hand you sound to me like a guy that for some unknown reason wants to prove that my religion is violant and makes desperate tries to do it. I'm a waste of time, ok. Then don't waste our both time by stating same thing I disproved long time ago and that is a cheap propaganda that is coming from people that just hate the religion. Or you also blame Islam for event in Beslan?
Now, i hope you'll read this from the beginning to the end and will not take this as an insult, and i also hope your respone won't be something like "you waste my time" or "f#%k you". I only want you to realise that you are trying to convinve me that all my beliefes are wrong and feed me with same propaganda i hear everyday even though I myself studied Islam before becoming muslim, learnt it hystory and read Qu'ran. And after that you tell me that i'm ignoring something and do not know something.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont know about that. Are they not fighting because certain people were kicked off their land?

700+ years ago Catholics were displaced for Protestant settlers. Now it's completely religious because both sides say the other is evil. (ex. All Protestant are evil, or all Catholics are evil).

Originally posted by Alliance
Weren't Palestinans also kicked off their land?

Alliance...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not really to do with religon but land.....similar thing going on in Palestine....

I addressed that point.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
700+ years ago Catholics were displaced for Protestant settlers. Now it's completely religious because both sides say the other is evil. (ex. All Protestant are evil, or all Catholics are evil).

...thats about land....not religon.

P.S. If i have adressed many of you're issues Alliance. Why are we still debating?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Alliance...

I addressed that point.

...thats about land....not religon.

No, it's about religion. It originated as land, but became land much like the hatred against Israel.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No, it's about religion. It originated as land, but became land much like the hatred against Israel.

Mate that sounds like land to me, because the whole reason why there is conflict is because people were kicked off their land. The whole origin of the problem is people being displaced not religon.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Mate that sounds like land to me, because the whole reason why there is conflict is because people were kicked off their land. The whole origin of the problem is people being displaced not religon.

And again, I will say, it originated as land, but turned into religion.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
And again, I will say, it originated as land, but turned into religion.

I see what you mean. I think it just depends on how you look at it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Alliance...

I addressed that point.

...thats about land....not religon.

P.S. If i have adressed many of you're issues Alliance. Why are we still debating?

I think nobody has the right to coment and talk about prophet mohammed in bad talk , its uppset me specially when achild talk about his personality ,his wars ...I THINK THE HISTORY TALK ABOUT HIM

if you want to know about him more , read islamic history and dont eddit crazy info to convince other to accept your races ideas .

Originally posted by Alfheim
P.S. If i have adressed many of you're issues Alliance. Why are we still debating?

Going along with what xyz said, you did respond to my criticism, but you did not imo dispell it.

But that debating, and is imo one of the purposes of these forums.

Originally posted by Fatima
I think nobody has the right to coment and talk about prophet mohammed in bad talk , its uppset me specially when achild talk about his personality ,his wars ...I THINK THE HISTORY TALK ABOUT HIM

if you want to know about him more , read islamic history and dont eddit crazy info to convince other to accept your races ideas .

People have the right to criticise, as do you. However, people need to remember that there is a historical context to actions.

Thomas Jefferson, imo one of the greatest men this world has ever seen, owned slaves, something that I think is very moraly wrong, but that doesn't diminsish his importance or legacy.

However, I think its more productive to critique current culture as opposed to dead men.

Originally posted by Fatima
I think nobody has the right to coment and talk about prophet mohammed in bad talk , its uppset me specially when achild talk about his personality ,his wars ...I THINK THE HISTORY TALK ABOUT HIM

if you want to know about him more , read islamic history and dont eddit crazy info to convince other to accept your races ideas .

Originally posted by lord xyz
I respect that you have come here to discuss your religion and I respect your choice to follow Muhammed. I'm glad about you're post in that you don't want propaganda flying around about someone who you've chosen to worship. I'll have to admit I am a little biased when it comes to prophecies n all, I just hate religion. The fact that it damages human thoughts I can't stand. There's nothing more important to me than the human mind. However, religion is damaging it, and that's why I'm biased, sorry, I just am.

you say that religion damage your brain , why dont you say that religion make our thoughts of univerce and nature expand , make us think about death and life ,and what is the purpse of this life .

religion give us guide , rules to make our life easier , becuase human rule is surely will became biased .

just follow your surmise , and keep thinking .

Originally posted by Fatima
you say that religion damage your brain , why dont you say that religion make our thoughts of univerce and nature expand , make us think about death and life ,and what is the purpse of this life .

You don't need religoin to do these things. In fact, the opposite is likely true. Religion puts a cap on your thinking because you're forced to work within a system.

Originally posted by Fatima
becuase human rule is surely will became biased.

Originally posted by Fatima
just follow your surmise , and keep thinking.

Originally posted by Fatima
you say that religion damage your brain , why dont you say that religion make our thoughts of univerce and nature expand ,

Originally posted by Fatima
make us think about death and life ,and what is the purpse of this life .

religion give us guide , rules to make our life easier , becuase human rule is surely will became biased .

just follow your surmise , and keep thinking .

in mean in my religion , for example if somebody rob astore or moeny his hand will slit , ,i visit saudi arabia few months ago , and i saw people went to mosqe to pray and leave there stores open .in another country like england there are robers who went to jail ,and after they finish they come back again . there is no straight rule to stop it .

Cripes. We've got the Jackie Malfoy of Islam now.

THANKS A LOT, GUYS.

Maybe they are one and the same!

Originally posted by Fatima
in mean in my religion , for example if somebody rob astore or moeny his hand will slit , ,i visit saudi arabia few months ago , and i saw people went to mosqe to pray and leave there stores open .in another country like england there are robers who went to jail ,and after they finish they come back again . there is no straight rule to stop it .

They are different philosophies of punishment. Mutilation is not considered moral, or fair punishment.

You could simply argue that if you kill every criminal, they will never commit a crime again.

I don't think that this is an effective solution. The "West" is not a crime-ridden nest of sin.

Originally posted by Fatima
I think nobody has the right to coment and talk about prophet mohammed in bad talk , its uppset me specially when achild talk about his personality ,his wars ...I THINK THE HISTORY TALK ABOUT HIM

if you want to know about him more , read islamic history and dont eddit crazy info to convince other to accept your races ideas .

And this is where you are wrong.

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything they like.
Your religion is an ideology, and just as you have the right, to walk all over Buddhism, Christianity or Hinduism, I (and few others on this board) have the same right about Islam, without us being called 'phobic' or hate manglers.

All things I ever quoted regarding Muhammad came from the Muslims sources, and Muslims scholers.
I am open to more debate with you.

Islam in its customs is a religion which existed for a very long time - we are not criticising that. Everyone has the right to subdue themselves to God completely.
What we are criticising are the actions of Muhammad, and we have the right to do so.

It is called ''critical examination of history''. To take as gospel that Muhammad was a al-insan al-kamil would just not be very logical.

Let me explain why criticising Islam, and Muhammad was not ''phobic'' or hateful. It is a criticism.

There is a term flying about which is ''Islamophobia''. This is a term which is not only ''wrong'' in context, but it is also illogical, and frankly stupid.

Phobia is an irrational fear of something. We have things like achluophobia (Fear of darkness), decidophobia ( Fear of making decisions) etc etc...
These things are called phobias, because they are irrational fears of certain things, and these are usually treated psychologically.

To suggest that critics of Islam are ''Islamophobic'' is to suggest that they are psychologically to be treated for their irrational questioning of Islam.
For that to be true, Islam needs to have been established as TRUTH, and it most certainly is not.

No other critics of any other religion has ''phobia'' attached to their name, apart from Islam.
Christianophobia? Budhistophobia? Judaistophobia? Nope.

Muhammad was a man, he lived in the past, he did things, and he was remembered. He is open to criticism for the scholars, historians and academics, not just now, but for years to come.

Osama Bin Laden will be open to criticism many years from now - some people will praise him, others will not.

To not question anything, is to just stop progressing. You cannot blindly believe all that is written in your religious books.
You need to read it, critically examen it, and then whatever you feel is true in your heart, believe.

Its easy to say ''Oh God, I pray to you and I follow you and your prophets blindly - relieve me of all free thought and responsibility''

Right to criticise something is a free expression and freedom to use ones brain, for other than robotic nodding to everything religious leaders and politically correct figures are telling you.