Originally posted by Bardock42
I know, that would be like an insurance kinda thing. I don't know about the US, but it doesn't quite work in Germany.
well, the payback is of such a low percentage of your earnings per week/biweek that its not a way to maintain one's standard of living. i collected once and it was barely helpful.
Originally posted by PVS
and you are wrong. a suitable increase in minimum wage will pull full-time minimum wage household above or at least AT the poverty line. i never suggested that it was the fix for poverty in general. kthxbyez
the problem with getting a balance to any minimum wage incerease is that in order to pay for the increase for public/state sector worker who are on the minimum wage is that you have to increase taxes to pay for it....which can negate the increase given particularly if it means more beauracracy and thus costs to implement
Originally posted by Bardock42
I am not very fond of minimum wages, since it forces employers to pay more for a job than it is factually worth.
there is no factual worth to any job.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Seems to me unfair towards businesses that depend on jobs that are usually considered below minimum wage against other businesses that depend on higher paid jobs.
that same argument was used to defend slavery. abolition was unfair because it hurt businesses that depended on their labor. 40 hours of work from a human being is entitled to a certain minimum wage for them to earn a living. if they are not worth it to a business, then they should not be hired.
Originally posted by Bardock42
What about people that can't find a job to begin with?How much did you get?
i dont want do divulge numbers. lets just say it was a bit over half of what i was making. however, its calculated by your earnings over a certain period, and i was hired at a low wage, but then got a sunstantial raise toward the middle of that period. so that kinda screwed me over. they calculate the average wage over a certain period of employment.
Originally posted by jaden101
the problem with getting a balance to any minimum wage incerease is that in order to pay for the increase for public/state sector worker who are on the minimum wage is that you have to increase taxes to pay for it....which can negate the increase given particularly if it means more beauracracy and thus costs to implement
the assumption being that the two are directly related and proportionate, which they are not. they dont just cancel eachother out. i understand what your saying, but i just think its blown way out of proportion. so minimum wage earners wont see all 100 cents of the extra dollar they are paid. agreed.
Originally posted by PVS
there is no factual worth to any job.that same argument was used to defend slavery. abolition was unfair because it hurt businesses that depended on their labor. 40 hours of work from a human being is entitled to a certain minimum wage for them to earn a living. if they are not worth it to a business, then they should not be hired.
There is though...if I am willing to pay 7 bucks an hour for a person that cleans my windows that's the most it is worth to me. If the person is willing to pay for 6 an hour we will probably meet somewhere in between...if I am not forced to pay 8 though I will jsut not hirethe cleaner and do it myself or pay him less illegally (gets around taxes and shit as well)
Slavery harms another human being purposely though. You are not forced by your employer to work for the money he offers you...you choose to do it for whatever reason. The money a worker will make will njot go below what he is willing to pay for and not go above what the employer is willing to pay..that's how it works and how it should be.
Originally posted by Bardock42
There is though...if I am willing to pay 7 bucks an hour for a person that cleans my windows that's the most it is worth to me. If the person is willing to pay for 6 an hour we will probably meet somewhere in between...if I am not forced to pay 8 though I will jsut not hirethe cleaner and do it myself or pay him less illegally (gets around taxes and shit as well)
that is not factual worth. thats a worth which you chose.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Slavery harms another human being purposely though.
in theory it doesnt. in theory they are given the means for a living. abuse/overwork/etc are not part of the theory, but rather reality. just as reality would dictate that businesses cannot be trusted to set their own minimum wage. theoretically sound, but it wont work. it hasnt worked. thats why we have minimums in the first place.
Originally posted by Bardock42
You are not forced by your employer to work for the money he offers you...you choose to do it for whatever reason.
and what if, to maintain such a balance, all employers lower their minimum, so that their is no choice? i doubt businesses would ever choose to compete with salaries for unskilled laborers, so rock bottom is the limit.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The money a worker will make will njot go below what he is willing to pay for and not go above what the employer is willing to pay..that's how it works and how it should be.
but it didnt work
Originally posted by PVS
that is not factual worth. thats a worth which you chose.
Well, of course it is not all factual worth, but it is calculated by all the factors involved. Worth is a subjective thing anyways, isn't it.
Originally posted by PVS
in theory it doesnt. in theory they are given the means for a living. abuse/overwork/etc are not part of the theory, but rather reality. just as reality would dictate that businesses cannot be trusted to set their own minimum wage. theoretically sound, but it wont work. it hasnt worked. thats why we have minimums in the first place.
In theory they are still unfree...which harms the slaves...so slavery is out. Stop comparing actual work with slavery.
The businesses don't have to be trusted with the minimum wages..they have the money, they can decide what to spend it on..the worker doesn't have the money but he can produce something that the company might want (his work)...that's the way it should be....and coincidently is.
Originally posted by PVS
and what if, to maintain such a balance, all employers lower their minimum, so that their is no choice? i doubt businesses would ever choose to compete with salaries for unskilled laborers, so rock bottom is the limit.
That's why I think you have to give the people the possibility to say "no" to the whole thing. Not force the businesses to pay more..cause forcing people to where to spent their money on is rather unfree. If unskilled labour is as needed as you say they will be able to get a decent amount of money for it...problem is it is not nearly as needed as there are people who can perform it...heck, I'll even go as far as to claim that I could do unskilled labour...
Originally posted by PVS
but it didnt work
It does work very well..it is what happens nowadays.
Originally posted by PVS
the assumption being that the two are directly related and proportionate, which they are not. they dont just cancel eachother out. i understand what your saying, but i just think its blown way out of proportion. so minimum wage earners wont see all 100 cents of the extra dollar they are paid. agreed.
true...of course the tax increase wouldn't be proportional because the private sector employees would also be taxed to pay for the increase in public sector workers pay
but the government will not be out of pocket as they will tax to pay for it...and the private companies will not go out of pocket and will either change their pension funds/health care schemes to a less favourable outcome for their employees or they will increase what they charge for their product/services
all of these changes have to be paid for...thus adding extra costs which will also be passed on to the employee/consumer in some way
the best example i remember being from my own country whereby the Scottish Socialist party proposed a national minimum wage of £7.50 per hour which was an increase of about £3.00 and hour at the time of the proposal...
when questioned on it they happily admitted that they would have to increase taxes from the 2 different brackets of 22% and 40% (which are dependant on earnings, to a blanket 50% income tax
so for taxes for someone currently on minimum wage of £4.50 would actually recieve (before national insurance contributions) 3.51
increase their wage to 7.50 and take away half meant 3.75 per hour
giving them an extra 24p per hour
if they worked 40 hours a week they would earn an extra £9.60 a week or £499.20 a year
compare that extra earnings to what supermarkets/utilities companies and other generally low paid sectors would increase their costs to the consumer by and you effectively wipe out any extra money earned
then of course their would be the cost to the state of changing every single persons tax codes via the inland revenue which would also be passed onto the average john and jane doe.
the problem being that people on low pay tend to work in the same type of places that they consume...hence if you force their employer to pay them more...their employer will simply increase their prices in order to not lose their money
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's why I think you have to give the people the possibility to say "no" to the whole thing.
thats where you need to see the point, and where yours falls to pieces. they CANT say no. well, i guess theorectically they can, but then they and their families starve.
Originally posted by jaden101
the problem being that people on low pay tend to work in the same type of places that they consume...hence if you force their employer to pay them more...their employer will simply increase their prices in order to not lose their money
well, concerning state and federal employees, dont worry about them. benefits galore and salaries substantially above minimum. now...walmart on the other hand..........
Originally posted by PVS
thats where you need to see the point, and where yours falls to pieces. they CANT say no. well, i guess theorectically they can, but then they and their families starve.where have they eliminated minimum wage with success?
That's why I proposed options how they could say no to a job.
Increasing the minimum wage won't help, that's just a fact. It will make more people unemployed and increase the prices for whatever the company is selling.
As for the minimum wage you are right..it exists, but that's not what I claimed, I said wages all around the free world are found by between the most the employer is willing to pay and the least the employee is willing to work for...that's a fact.
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's why I proposed options how they could say no to a job.Increasing the minimum wage won't help, that's just a fact. It will make more people unemployed and increase the prices for whatever the company is selling.
its NOT a fact, its a theory which has never been proven.