Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I got a B in General Biology for Non-Majors.
Oh really? So clearly you understood what was going on - did you course include a module on... evolution?
Did you, like a crusading Chick tract reader, trounce the lecture drawing from scientific theory and proof on the subject? Did he threaten to throw you into jail because of your Bible having a rebutal to every bit of evidence presented?
Quote Mining? Not at all, just giving you the facts.
"It is perhaps not too much to say that the more fully this conception of universal evolution is grasped, the more firmly a scientific doctrine of Providence will be established, and the stronger will be the presumption of a future progress."
--W. H. Lecky
"Since there must have been something from eternity, because there is something now, the eternal Being must be an intelligent Being because there is intelligence now; for no man will venture to assert that non-entity can produce entity, or non-intelligence, intelligence. And such a Being must exist necessarily, whether things have been always as they are, or whether they have been made in time: because it is no more easy to conceive an infinite than a finite progression of effects without a cause."
--Bolingbroke
"Nature declares that there is one everacting Creator and Ruler."
--Lord Kelvin
"Nature being subject to law cannot, therefore, be God. She is the wondrous product of His almighty will. Thus the will of God is everywhere expressed by the laws of nature, since these laws originate from Him."
--Lamarck, father of organic evolutionism
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics."
--Sir Isaac Newton
"There is a valid reason why there is a missing link: it does not exist."
--JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Regret, an atheist can claim anything that he/she wants that doesn't make it so. I can claim that I am from Mars and that women are from Venus but that does not make what I said true.The Bible reveals that in the beginning (before the universe and everything in it existed) God created the Heavens (outer space) and the earth. That means or implies that God created matter. You have to know how to infer implicit information.[/color]
You claim the implication, but such an implication is only existence in your head. The Bible does not imply anything, it makes statements about specific moments in creation. The Bible states that in the beginning of this world, God created the Heavens and the earth. This implies that God created the earth and the heavens, it makes no statement as to matter. You have to know how to infer appropriately from general statements. You can claim faulty inferences and implications all you want, but that doesn't make what you have stated true.
Originally posted by Regret
You claim the implication, but such an implication is only existence in your head. The Bible does not imply anything, it makes statements about specific moments in creation. The Bible states that in the beginning of this world, God created the Heavens and the earth. This implies that God created the earth and the heavens, it makes no statement as to matter. You have to know how to infer appropriately from general statements. You can claim faulty inferences and implications all you want, but that doesn't make what you have stated true.
Regret, is the earth matter? Yes, so then you just refuted your own argument, case closed. Next!
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Regret, is the earth matter? Yes, so then you just refuted your own argument, case closed. Next!
Not necessarily. Matter could already have been here and God simply shaped it.
Or maybe he is like some Sumerian creator Deity and slew the dragon of chaos and from its body carved the universe. The Bible doesn't say God created matter, simply the earth and the heavens.
It is like saying "Da Vinci created the Mona Lisa - clearly this means he also made his own canvass and his own paints and..." rather then the far more likely have bought them from someone.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Oh really? So clearly you understood what was going on - did you course include a module on... evolution?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Not necessarily. Matter could already have been here and God simply shaped it.Or maybe he is like some Sumerian creator Deity and slew the dragon of chaos and from its body carved the universe. The Bible doesn't say God created matter, simply the earth and the heavens.
It is like saying "Da Vinci created the Mona Lisa - clearly this means he also made his own canvass and his own paints and..." rather then the far more likely have bought them from someone.
Hmmm...create...shape...create...shape (shakes head) nope I don't see the synonymity between these two words.
The word "create" in Genesis 1:1 means to bring into existence. But the word "shape" means or implies, to take pre-existent (i.e. already here) material and fashion it into something else. God brought the earth (matter) into existence originally.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Hmmm...create...shape...create...shape (shakes head) nope I don't see the synonymity between these two words.The word "create" in Genesis 1:1 means to bring into existence. But the word "shape" means or implies, to take pre-existent (i.e. already here) material and fashion it into something else. God brought the earth (matter) into existence originally.
Tell me - what am I doing when I paint a picture? Or take bricks and cement and put them into a house?
You do realise in the definition of create it doesn't say "To bring something from the void" - or whatever. Both shape and create imply one is making something out of raw materials. And I didn't realise anyone had died and made you editor of a dictionary where you could say "In the Bible the word means different from its use elsewhere."... seems to me you are interpreting.
The Egyptians seem to understand it better then you - they had gods of creation, then they had gods representing raw materials from which things were created.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Tell me - what am I doing when I paint a picture? Or take bricks and cement and put them into a house?You do realise in the definition of create it doesn't say "To bring something from the void" - or whatever. Both shape and create imply one is making something out of raw materials. And I didn't realise anyone had died and made you editor of a dictionary where you could say "In the Bible the word means different from its use elsewhere."... seems to me you are interpreting.
The Egyptians seem to understand it better then you - they had gods of creation, then they had gods representing raw materials from which things were created.
Why do atheists always parse words, discount every minute detail of incontrovertible evidence that con-futes (no just refutes but confutes) what the believe, and lastly why do they seem to harbor an attitude of obstinate denial in the face of defeat? Can you answer that I.S.?
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveTo create something does not necessitate the bringing into existence of the substance used in creation. I create a work of art, but I do not create the paint and the canvas. To create does not presuppose the absence of materials.
Regret, is the earth matter? Yes, so then you just refuted your own argument, case closed. Next!
The word "create" in genesis 1:1 means to organize, to bring into order.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why do atheists always parse words, discount every minute detail of incontrovertible evidence that con-futes (no just refutes but confutes) what the believe, and lastly why do they seem to harbor an attitude of obstinate denial in the face of defeat? Can you answer that I.S.?
First of all - because I haven't been defeated? Not sure what kind of glasses you are wearing but they seem to mislead you.
Second - because you feel perfectly fine with claiming victory based upon nothing more then vague descriptions which even then don't actually confirm your case - "The word "create" in Genesis 1:1 means to bring into existence." I know, you have a hot line to God so he can tell you exactly what a word means in Biblical context, even if that is different from its actual meaning.
Third - Conjecture. Once again with create - you are basing you argument on what you believed happen. Why did God say "And so God created the heavens from nothing" - maybe because that isn't the case. You seem to think that the word create means "to make from nothing" when it usually means to "make from something"
Fourth - Because, sorry, it is incontrovertible evidence? Not sure what gave you the idea it was. Especially when there is nothing supporting it.
Answered to your satisfaction?
But you did not respond to this post Regret.
Yes he did. The earth is made from matter, but as he, and I said, the word "create" does not entail also creating the substance from which the object is created. The fact the earth is matter does not prove God create matter, just that he created the earth out of matter (if you believe that.)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
First of all - because I haven't been defeated? Not sure what kind of glasses you are wearing but they seem to mislead you.Second - because you feel perfectly fine with claiming victory based upon nothing more then vague descriptions which even then don't actually confirm your case - "The word "create" in Genesis 1:1 means to bring into existence." I know, you have a hot line to God so he can tell you exactly what a word means in Biblical context, even if that is different from its actual meaning.
Third - Conjecture. Once again with create - you are basing you argument on what you believed happen. Why did God say "And so God created the heavens from nothing" - maybe because that isn't the case. You seem to think that the word create means "to make from nothing" when it usually means to "make from something"
Fourth - Because, sorry, it is incontrovertible evidence? Not sure what gave you the idea it was. Especially when there is nothing supporting it.
Answered to your satisfaction?
Yes he did. The earth is made from matter, but as he, and I said, the word "create" does not entail also creating the substance from which the object is created. The fact the earth is matter does not prove God create matter, just that he created the earth out of matter (if you believe that.)
You do a great job of answering all of my questions to my satisfaction, thanks. I must commend you on that. But sometimes you overwhelm me and go overboard though (laughs).
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
Can you say, "death knell ladies and gentlemen?"
God created the things which are seen (matter, energy, etc.) from things which are in-visible. In other words, God created the universe and everything in it out of nothing...
It just doesn't get any plainer than that.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You do a great job of answering all of my questions to my satisfaction, thanks. I must commend you on that. But sometimes you overwhelm me and go overboard though (laughs).[B]Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.Can you say, "death knell ladies and gentlemen?"
God created the things which are seen (matter, energy, etc.) from things which are in-visible. In other words, God created the universe and everything in it out of nothing...
It just doesn't get any plainer than that. [/B]
The true nature of reality is for more wondrous then that. The people who wrote the bible had no idea of the true unbelievable vastness. God did not great the universe; the universe is like God, without beginning or end.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.Can you say, "death knell ladies and gentlemen?"
God created the things which are seen (matter, energy, etc.) from things which are in-visible. In other words, God created the universe and everything in it out of nothing...
It just doesn't get any plainer than that. [/B]
Uh huh. So it wasn't mentioned in Genesis because?
And you do know there earth and everything is made up of things that aren't visible to the human eye? They aren't saying "God framed the worlds so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are non-existant" - it is still saying that God made the world and all things out of "something" and they aren't saying that something didn't already exist.
Though I would be impressed if they were talking about atoms and the like (though to be fair people had for a long time believed in other sources of the world, invisible)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Uh huh. So it wasn't mentioned in Genesis because?And you do know there earth and everything is made up of things that aren't visible to the human eye? They aren't saying "God framed the worlds so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are non-existant" - it is still saying that God made the world and all things out of "something" and they aren't saying that something didn't already exist.
Though I would be impressed if they were talking about atoms and the like (though to be fair people had for a long time believed in other sources of the world, invisible)
(Shakes head in compassionate patience) I cannot explain every minute detail about why God did this or why God did not do that. God has made His Word available to us and through the instrumentality of 40 different authors over a period of 1600 years. Some were prophets, some were shepherds, some were professionals (Luke was a physician), and businessmen, some were highly educated, some were commoners. But the point is that All Scripture (from Genesis up to and including Revelation) is God's Word. God has chosen to intersperse details throughout His Word perhaps so that we could see a common thread among all the Books of the Bible. This metaphorical thread is God's signature as it were to us that the Bible is indeed His Word. There is remarkable continuity of theme from beginning to end and this flow and congruency strengthens the case that holy men of God spoke (and wrote) as they were moved and inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that the Bible, the holy Scriptures are indeed the Word of God which lives and abides forever.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Uh huh. So it wasn't mentioned in Genesis because?And you do know there earth and everything is made up of things that aren't visible to the human eye? They aren't saying "God framed the worlds so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are non-existant" - it is still saying that God made the world and all things out of "something" and they aren't saying that something didn't already exist.
Though I would be impressed if they were talking about atoms and the like (though to be fair people had for a long time believed in other sources of the world, invisible)
Got this of the net. It seems to confirm what I have been saying that the Bible already affirms.
This article is easier to read from the link though.
http://www.bcmmin.org/create.html
There are more spaces and what not between clauses.
DID GOD CREATE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH
...... OUT OF NOTHING OR OUT OF PRE-EXISTENT MATTER?
BACKGROUND
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)
The Bible teaches in Genesis 1:1 (with Hebrew 11:3) that [b]God created everything out of nothing, "ex- nihilo" (a creation from nothing). The Hebrew word (bara, word #1254 in Strong) that is translated "created" in Genesis 1:1 is only used for creations by God. In summary it means a creation out of nothing. God spoke, and what was not, was.
OUT OF NOTHING?
As I have little Hebrew language capabilities I must rely on what linguistic experts in the field say about the Hebrew word "bara" that is translated "created" in Genesis 1:1. One Bible dictionary had the following to say.
Theologically, bara is one of the most significant. The action involved with the word is the first activity of biblical history. It is used exclusively to refer to God's creative work; it refers to creating things "ex nihilo", or out of nothing." ("The Complete Biblical Library, The Old Testament, Hebrew-English Dictionary", word # 1282, page 578,)
Another source has,
TO CREATE bara, "to create, make." This verb is of profound theological significance, since it has only god as its subject. Only God can "create" in the sense implied by "bara." The verb expresses creation out of nothing.... (An expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, by W. E. Vine..., page 51, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
A Hebrew-Greek study Bible say,
1254 Bara; to create, form, make, produce; to cut, to cut down; to engrave, to carve. The word occurs in the very first verse of the Bible (Gen. 1:1). Bara emphasizes the initiation of the object, not manipulating it after original creation. The word as used in the Qal [?] refers only to an activity which can be performed by God. Entirely new productions are associated with bara.....The word bara also possesses the meaning of "bringing into existence"...... (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, Spiros Zodhiates, Compiler and Editor, page 1583, Baker Book House, 1984-1985)
A publication by Adam Clarke (born 1762), in the late 18th century, in speaking about "created" has,
Created] Caused existence where previously to this moment there was no being. The rabbins, who are legitimate judges in a case of verbal criticism on their own language are unanimous in asserting that the word "bara" expresses the commencement of the existence of a thing, or egression [sic] from nonentity to entity.....The supposition that God formed all things out of pre-existing, eternal nature, is certainly absurd....." (Clarke's Commentary - The Holy Bible...., by Adam Clarke, Vol 1, page 29, footnote)
Another old publication from the 13th century, by Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (1195-1270) had this to say about the creation of God,
Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity, The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word "bara" (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having a power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly, He did not create anything, but He formed and made things with it, and from this hyly. He brought everything into existence.....
The purport of the verses is thus: In the beginning G-d created the heavens from nought, and He created the earth from nought....
...it was because it is equal in importance to the commandments, constituting, as it does, a testimony to Creation ex nihilo.
In Hebrew, chiddush (new), thus implying that G-d created a new world out an absolute void. (Ramban (Nachmanides), Commentary on the Torah, Genesis, pages 23, 27, 332, footnote 162, Shilo Publishing House, Inc, NY, 1971).
Two modern Bible commentaries have,
The OT and the NT, in their doctrine of creation, recognize no eternal matter before creation. We cannot say that the origin of matter is excluded from the Genesis account of creation, and this quite apart from the use bara as admitting of material and means of creation. But is seems unwise to build such an interpretation upon passages of Genesis that can afford only an exigetically insecure basis. The NT seems to favor the derivation of matter from nonexistent - that is to say, the time-world were due to the effluent divine word or originative will, rather than to being built out of God's own invisible essence. So the best exegesis interprets Heb. 11:3 (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol 1, page 801, William B. Eerdmans Pub., Grand Rapids, MI, 1989)
The words in Heb. 11:3 "what is seen was made out of things which do not appear", taken with Gn. 1:1, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", indicate that the worlds were not made of pre-existent material, but out of nothing by the divine Word, in the sense that prior to the divine creative fiat there was no other kind of existence. This Creatio ex nihilo has important theological implications, for among other things it precludes the idea that matter is eternal..... (The New Bible Dictionary, page 245, Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc, Wheaton, IL).
Hebrews 11:3 has,
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Hebrews 11:3)
The bottom line summary of all the above references is that God created from things which did not appear, He created from nothing.
THE TEACHINGS OF THE MORMON CHURCH
The Mormon Church's teachings are significantly different.
Latter-day Saints have, in addition to the biblical Genesis, two modern restorations of ancient scriptural accounts of the Creation...This understanding differs from both scientific and traditional Christian accounts in that it affirms God's purpose and role, while recognizing creation as organization of preexisting materials, and not as an ex- nihilo event (creation from nothing). (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p. 340)
In other words the Mormon God used pre-existing matter in his creation, much as a carpenter uses wood to make shelves. This teaching came from Joseph Smith. Was he the first to teach this concept? No, he was not. Philosophers, some well before Joseph Smith, taught the same idea. Immanuel Kant (1724-1804), Paul Holbach (1723-1789) and Count Buffoon (1707-1788) are three of them (In Search of Adam, by Herbert Wendt, pages 106-109, 140-141).
Bearing on this thought is the teachings of the Mormon church that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). He has not always been God, he was once a man, born of woman, that progressed until he became God (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, page 129-132, a teaching manual published by the Mormon church). He has a father and this father has a father etc etc. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 373; Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, page 152 Copyright 1984 by Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). This god is finite, he had a beginning and he had to rely on previously existing matter for his creation.
THE ETERNAL OMNIPOTENCE OF GOD
The Bible teaches that God is omnipotent and eternal. He is all powerful (Rev 19:6; Luke 1:37). In addition the God of the Bible has always existed, as God (Ps 90:3, 93:2, 103:17; Deut 33:27; Malachi 3:6).
CONCLUSIONS
If God did not (and does not) have the power to create out of nothing the materials for the creation (as taught by the Mormon church), then he is not omnipotent. He is limited by the matter that allegedly already existed, matter that was co-eternal with him. Because he is limited in his capabilities he is not all powerful. This idea is also supported by the idea that this god also had a beginning, he was once a man that progressed to become a god. Thus we see that the god of Mormonism is a god of limited capabilities.
John Farkas,
Berean Christian Ministries; P.O. Box 1091; Webster, NY 14580;
E-mail: [email protected]
Web page: http://www.bcmmin.org
art/creat, 2-15-98