RAVEN vs. JEAN GREY

yeah, extant basically sucks really bad. his obsession with phoenix is far, far more consuming than any of the "fanboys" that are apparently everywhere he goes.

the guy always tells people to read up on comics, but constantly gives misinformation. like the exiles 1-3? what, it took three issues for wolverine to stab jean OFF PANEL? he's also claimed that ion could remake the multiverse, that ion has the full starheart, that in the phalanx issues of x-men, the x-men take down the shi'ar empire, and to top it all off continues to blindly ignore any countering of his "points".

lordkaos did an excellent job with this post:

Originally posted by LordKaos
Wolverine killing Jean was needed so that both of them could survive the sun, Xorn killing Jean was so that she could save the future, Phoenix commiting suicide on the moon was to redeem Jean and allow her egg to incubate on the moon to save the same future that she needed Xorn to kill her for.

now that i have that off my chest, jean grey lifted fifty tons telekinetically without the phoenix. that's certainly enough to crush raven into powder.

Actually he stabbed her ON PANEL and at the height of her power as Dark Phoenix.

My point you fanboys seem to miss is that her physical form is vulnerable to normal attacks. You ignore this. Her soul is vulnerable to attacks as well, and she has to concentrate to use her powers. When Ravens soulself is around her she is tormented and cannot concentrate and cant use her powers.

Just because ot flies in the face of your fanboy love doesnt mean its not true.

Raven almost beat her as Dark Phoenix when Raven was less powerfull and less experianced. Now she is more powerfull and more experianced and she can take a phoenix or non-phoenix Jean as easily as any beam weapon of wolverine ever has.

Case closed.

Raven is a telepath sort of her powers are empathy and she can chage people emotions thoughts and feelings with easy. So that is why I said she is a better telepath because basicly see is a telepath. Plus raven in comics easily lifted cars buses and trucks while jean struggled with weights.

Wow. There's some serious misinformation out there. Posters seem to forget that Jean has repeatedly breached "unbreachable" psi defenses. She's dragged people immune to TP to the astral plane. She's adept at using TP and TK simultaneously. Her TK shields haven't been breached, and they've been shown to deflect energy.

As far as crossovers are concerned, neither Supes nor Flash could touch non-Phoenix Jean. Dark Phoenix handed Dormammu his ass, and I'm sure that he would destroy Raven. But it doesn't really matter, because crossovers aren't canon.

And why is it that people think that just because some characters use magic they are invincible? All superhero teams have fought magical beings before, and the vast majority may have one person on their team, if that, who uses magic. Yet they still come out victorious, while many a magic user has been felled by fists. It's not that cut and dry.

RAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Raven wins.

Non phoenix jean has never broken through psi defenses she could barely conrtol minds of those who psi defenses weren't that high. Jean hasn't really created that many tk sheilds because her tk was just powerful. Plus her tk sheild was broken by jugg, psylocky(ninja psyhic w/ blade), and emma frost force her to lower her tk sheilds mentally. Jean was a weak telekinetic and and even worst telepath that is why writers gave her phoenix to try to make her more powerful and popular. Seriously who liked a telepath who would faint after controlling someones mind and somethat would faint after trying to stopp a car from hitting a little girl( and rogue had to stop the car in the end). Jean w/o phoenix is crap don't mix her up with phoenix jean.

no phoenix.

Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

Not as much as Raven, She unleashes her soulself and Jean would crumble.

so you say, the only thing you have to offer is a non-canon example of this and I'm still not buying it. Jean has exorcised Ogun and Apocalypse, and easily toyed with the minds of a Rutai sorcerer and a horde of N'gari with no Phoenix to speak of.

Raven has held back demons and gone toe to toe with the titans of myth.

I don't think you get that her soul self is like cloak's effect (From Cloak and Dagger) on stereoids. Shes been able to resist mind control in the past.

Get over your fanboy love.

See what makes us hate you phoenix fanboys is that you think shes unbeatable by ANYONE!! You ignore facts you dont like.

You wonder why I dont debate like Mr M does? Cause I see him offering scans and logic and reasonable arguements and it does nothing to make you people see the truth.

I never said she was unbeatable, i haven't even said she would win, I've merely stated that it won't be as simple as you think it would be, I say again I'm not a fanboy, a fanboy would find her unbeatable, and then there are people like you who hate her so much for reasons unknown that you tend to make comments that lack any depth. Revolution Jean had a phoenix raptor (pink energy signature) of her own making coupled with Psylockes telepathy that may be a fitting match against Ravens soulself, but I'm sure you'll disagree without saying much. Either way I've grown tired of this thread and your staggering ability to be redundant.

Ravens soulself wouldnt be effected by teleathy. Its a soul crushing void that takes the shape of a bird. Once your in it if she wants to she can tramatize you to the point of being comatose.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

I was thinking of a Jean without the whole phoenix thing but left with the whole omega thing. Kinda like when Iceman became uber for a brief period.

Raven's soulself still takes it.

Is a Psychic astral form similar to magical astral form? Is the soulself similar to Dr. Strange's astral form? I thought all astral forms are the same when they are in the astral plane wether they come from magic or psychic.

LORDKAOS, if you're tired of responding to this senseless guy who calls himself EXTANT, then allow me to replace you. Extant, I've read nothing from your posts that actually made any sense to your point of Raven owning (Phoenix-less) Jean. Other than continuing to justify your argument with non-cannonical events you've got nothing else to support your claim. You've also only been able to mention the word "fanboy" like a thousand times....times when LORDKAOS seemed to have struck a nerve in you with facts. You're sheer hate for Jean/Phoenix is so obvious that I'm beginning to think you yourself are a fanboy of the character. A couple of points you need to drill in "that thick skull of yours". There is no such thing as a Phoenix-less Jean. Prior to the Jean/Phoenix merge, Jean was already officially classified as an omega-level mutant in both telepathy and telekinesis. Let me repeat, she is an omega-level mutant even without having to tap into her Phoenix powers which are actually hers to use anytime as she is Phoenix. I'm not sure if you've ever attended Logic classes so if you have, now's the time to put what you've learned to good use. You don't win a debate by giving people names everytime you have nothing factual and logical to use as a rebuttal. You win a debate by proving your claim with cannonical facts in this case. I think you're getting pretty worked out on this.

Jean not using phoenix. Both at normal power levels.

bump