Everything COSMIC in Marvel - the Hierarchy, Battles, Feats, Q & A , scans galore!

Started by Mr Master178 pages
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Let me just try another whack at the tier list:

A revised Hierarchy (IMO)

Tier 0:

1. GOD/"the Artist" (Jack Kirby presumably)

1. TOAA/"the Writer" (Stan Lee presumably)

Tier 1:

THOTI

Tier 2:

1. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

2. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

Tier 3:

The Living Tribunal

Tier 4: (no particular order)

HOM Wanda (Full control)

Meggan (Full potential)

Merlyn (Matrix empowered)

Cap Brit. with the Sword of Might & Amulet of Right

Havok (Merged with the Nexus of Realities)

616 Jaspers merged with Fury (he must have ALL of Fury's abilities)

Infinity Gauntlet

Oblivion

Jamie Braddock

Beyonders

Tier 5:

Celestial Nullifier

Ultimate Nullifier

Tier 6:

1.Abraxas

2. Post-Retcon Molecule Man (Owen Reece's alter ego)

Tier 7:

1. Entropy

2. Multi-Eternity/Infinity

3. Multi-Death

(I never seen anything to hint at the existence of a multi-Oblivion)

Tier 8: (no particular order)

1. The Infinites

2. The Cosmic Containment Units

3. The Makers

4. Atleza

5. Galactus Insatiable (only seen once) ... Potentially Higher ...

6. Genis-vell Full potential (seen during HOM)

Tier 9:

1. 616 Eternity/Infinity

2. The Phoenix Force/WPOTC

3. Korvac (empowered by Galactus' World Ship)

4. 616 (Death - Lord Chaos & Master Order)

5. Rest of the Abstracts

Tier 10: (alternate and divergent Universes)

1. ALL Other Eternity/Infinity's

2. ALL Other (Death - Lord Chaos & Master Order)

3. rest of the Abstracts

Below this is a grey area, too much to sort out.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Like Ubiquitor,

it's all shady.

These Absolutes only appeared in a visualization as Ubiquitor was recounting her "History" ...

According to Ubiquitor they existed before the Universe,

and they created and destroyed Universes.

Is this true?

I don't know.

Ubiquitor was apparently incomplete in this era because she got Owned by Phoenix 9 (Giraud) who had Thor's Hammer.

Thanks, Mr. M. What scan is that from? IMO, its a cool theory

Why do you put HOTU above PR Beyonder?

Endless Mike, I think the biggest problem with your higherarchy is that you placed THOTU bellow the True Beyonders.

There's nothing at all to suggest that.

Well I was basing it on the fact that the True Beyonders had Scathan as a representative and he upstaged the LT.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well I was basing it on the fact that the True Beyonders had Scathan as a representative and he upstaged the LT.

Where was it ever shown that Scathan was a representitive of the true Beyonders?

I asked that myself, but people have been saying it.

If it's not true I guess I'll change my mind.

Good read.

Impressive...

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I asked that myself, but people have been saying it.

If it's not true I guess I'll change my mind.


people just made that up to justify Scathan's power level... It's not anything from comics.

Scathan wasn't really that powerful. He just put a muzzle on Protege. That's an extremely dubious and ambiguous occurrence.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Scathan wasn't really that powerful. He just put a muzzle on Protege. That's an extremely dubious and ambiguous occurrence.

What irritates me about that incident is I've researched that event thoroughly,

on panel and in bios, I've yet to come across a comprehensible explanation.

The weaker "M-body" argument is out the window,

I made a solid case that there are no such things as "Portioned" M-bodys.

All M-bodys come with the Full power of the Abstract they form.

In fact, that Official Marvel bio clearly states it

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm
(under powers/abilites)

On top of this the Living Tribunal has NO counter-parts,

there is only One Living Tribunal:


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Hanbook 2006)

And he exists in all the Multiverses simultaneously (omnipresence)

I know you already know this stuff, ... but for the onlookers. 🙂

Yeah, it's a trivial occurence. I personally put little merit in it. It can be interpreted in many ways. The simplest explanation is that Protege simply boasted. Given the on panel evidence it's more than reasonable to assume as much. On Panel all Protege did was appear as a three headed version of himself (apparently that depiction was to convey the fact he had mimicked the Tribunal's powers), yet he claims to be "The One Above All", and with those powers, what does he do?

He:

1) Summons Mephisto and tortures him.
2) Unleashes an omnidirectional blast of little effect on the assembled abstracts/cosmics.
3) Gets a thumbs down and muzzled by a Celestial who had essentially stood their and bore the brunt of Protege's assault with no consequence.

It's reasonable to assume that Protege did not truly obtain Living Tribunal's full power, and even if he did (as that is what the depiction and inference would allude to), one could assume or interpret by Protege's display of power that he could not exert Tribunal's powers in full capacity though it is not stated.

Warlock with the power of the Gauntlet was able to essentially disintegrate the entire assembly of Abstracts with a blast (save Tribunal). Protege simply knocked a couple over and then got Hannibal Lecter'd by Scathan.

That whole incident is essentially a moot point if you can look at it objectively. 👇

Only way that can be taken seriously is if someone is attempting to further an agenda to either demote LT's status or promote Scathan's though there's really no evidence for either.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Protege simply knocked a couple over and then got Hannibal Lecter'd by Scathan.

😆

Nice expression, had me rollin.

I agree completely btw.

Hmm...

As for the M-body debate, I'm still deliberating on it.

Yes, there is only 'one' LT, but he can be all places and nowhere at once. If he can only have one M-Body physical representation at a time, and that one M-Body is his totality, it doesn't add up due to the premise of the character.

Hypothetically, if the LT were physically present in universes 616, 2348, 809, and 2117 (hypothetical universes save 616) simultaneously carrying out his duties, how could his totality be encompassed in only one M-Body when he's present on multiple planes of reality?

Logic would dictate that he couldn't.

And also, using your argument, if LT is present in all Marvel Multiverses (the blue and purple orbs from the Atleza account you addressed), and Thanos usurped the orb/actuality/universe he was present in, doesn't that mean that outside the sphere occupied by Thanos the LT would no longer be present as well?

I don't think so, personally.

Gamora, Warlock, Atleza and Death were outside the effects of the HOTI, so, IMO, the LT wasn't absorbed in his totality in as much as Thanos being granted the ability to usurp LT's role in that particular actuality with the power given to him by TOAA. Within that sphere LT no longer had domain by TOAA's designs, but outside that particular sphere his role would still be necessary.

That is, of course, unless one were to assume that the HOTI had domain over all things Marvel, which would seem to be implausible given the survival of Warlock and the others.

Originally posted by illadelph12
As for the M-body debate, I'm still deliberating on it.

I've research the matter thoroughly,

there is no account on panel or in a bio that states M-bodys come in variable levels of power.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Yes, there is only 'one' LT, but he can be all places and nowhere at once. If he can only have one M-Body physical representation at a time, and that one M-Body is his totality, it doesn't add up due to the premise of the character.

LT only has one M-body, that is everywhere at once.

That's how I've come to understand it (through issues and bios)

Apparently, this One M-body which has all of LT's power, can manifest simultaneously across the Infinite Realities with said level of power in every Reality.

Basically endless copies of the same being with the same power.

Now,

this doesn't mean that LT can merge separate manifestations of himself to grow in power, (never seen that or heard of that)

it's more of a mechanical configuration that seems to be devoid of perfect logic.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hypothetically, if the LT were physically present in universes 616, 2348, 809, and 2117 (hypothetical universes save 616) simultaneously carrying out his duties, how could his totality be encompassed in only one M-Body when he's present on multiple planes of reality?

Logic would dictate that he couldn't.

Exactly my point,

you're making perfect sense, but that's only if we look at the LT as a finite source of Energy.

That's just part of the Tribunal's character,

Omnipresence, with Full power in every presence.

Also, LT doesn't get defeated, we should take into consideration that the End, was a special occasion,

Thanos did have the power of "the Almighty" (TOAA) so that lost is completely acceptable.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And also, using your argument, if LT is present in all Marvel Multiverses (the blue and purple orbs from the Atleza account you addressed), and Thanos usurped the orb/actuality/universe he was present in, doesn't that mean that outside the sphere occupied by Thanos the LT would no longer be present as well?

I don't think so, personally.

I don't see why not.

LT's duties are only present if they are needed, if there is no Mystical imbalance taking place, LT is pretty much incognito.

Then again, perhaps it doesn't matter if Thanos absorbed the FP LT of that specific Actuality,

because there's another (the same) for every other Multiverse.

Or we can also take into account the fact that the End of the Universe/Multiverse (opinions differ) was short lived,

and so LT wasn't missed,

after all, it was all TOAA's plan anyway.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Gamora, Warlock, Atleza and Death were outside the effects of the HOTI, so, IMO, the LT wasn't absorbed in his totality in as much as Thanos being granted the ability to usurp LT's role in that particular actuality with the power given to him by TOAA. Within that sphere LT no longer had domain by TOAA's designs, but outside that particular sphere his role would still be necessary.

That is, of course, unless one were to assume that the HOTI had domain over all things Marvel, which would seem to be implausible given the survival of Warlock and the others.

Well Warlock & company survived because Thanos had only absorbed Space and Time:

And as you know Warlock & Co. were Outside the influence of Time & Space.

Completely disconnected from it in Atleza's Realm and Death in her's.

And again, I do believe that there was still LT's everywhere, which are all the same Entity, which all have the same power level, a power level that makes them/him second to TOAA (IMO)

(Trying to imagine omnipresence jirrates the senses)

Originally posted by Mr Master
What irritates me about that incident is I've researched that event thoroughly,

on panel and in bios, I've yet to come across a comprehensible explanation.

The weaker "M-body" argument is out the window,

I made a solid case that there are no such things as "Portioned" M-bodys.

All M-bodys come with the Full power of the Abstract they form.

In fact, that Official Marvel bio clearly states it

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm
(under powers/abilites)

On top of this the Living Tribunal has NO counter-parts,

there is only One Living Tribunal:


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Hanbook 2006)

And he exists in all the Multiverses simultaneously (omnipresence)

I know you already know this stuff, ... but for the onlookers. 🙂

Of course, I do. Living Tribunal is #1

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

As for the M-body debate, I'm still deliberating on it.

Yes, there is only 'one' LT, but he can be all places and nowhere at once. If he can only have one M-Body physical representation at a time, and that one M-Body is his totality, it doesn't add up due to the premise of the character.

Hypothetically, if the LT were physically present in universes 616, 2348, 809, and 2117 (hypothetical universes save 616) simultaneously carrying out his duties, how could his totality be encompassed in only one M-Body when he's present on multiple planes of reality?

Logic would dictate that he couldn't.

And also, using your argument, if LT is present in all Marvel Multiverses (the blue and purple orbs from the Atleza account you addressed), and Thanos usurped the orb/actuality/universe he was present in, doesn't that mean that outside the sphere occupied by Thanos the LT would no longer be present as well?

I don't think so, personally.

Gamora, Warlock, Atleza and Death were outside the effects of the HOTI, so, IMO, the LT wasn't absorbed in his totality in as much as Thanos being granted the ability to usurp LT's role in that particular actuality with the power given to him by TOAA. Within that sphere LT no longer had domain by TOAA's designs, but outside that particular sphere his role would still be necessary.

That is, of course, unless one were to assume that the HOTI had domain over all things Marvel, which would seem to be implausible given the survival of Warlock and the others.

that's why ill is, like, only half man, but half-amazing . . . 😄

i agree in all ways, old friend. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
I've research the matter thoroughly,

there is no account on panel or in a bio that states M-bodys come in variable levels of power.

all we need to do is look at the bio you provided for anthropomorpho:

"In addition, other beings of power may use M-Bodies to manifest their forms at multiple sites, simultaneously."

you can argue that lt has infinite power and so each representation has 'complete power' (i of course will always disagree 🙂 ) but surely not ALL beings who use M-Bodies can be said to have the same depth of power. so if an entity appears in multiple places simultaneously, how can it be said that ALL of them have the 'total' power of the abstract?

and since you wanted to post that website to begin with . . .

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/AnomalyI.htm

"Clearly the destruction of the M-Body would not destroy the Anomaly's ABSTRACT existence."

which of course it would were the m-body the totality of any abstract. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
all we need to do is look at the bio you provided for anthropomorpho:

"In addition, other beings of power may use M-Bodies to manifest their forms at multiple sites, simultaneously."

you can argue that lt has infinite power and so each representation has 'complete power' (i of course will always disagree) but surely not ALL beings who use M-Bodies can be said to have the same depth of power. so if an entity appears in multiple places simultaneously, how can it be said that ALL of them have the 'total' power of the abstract?

Sorry friend,

ALL Abstracts manifest their Full Power, just like the Bio clearly states.

As far as this is concerned:

"In addition, other beings of power may use M-Bodies to manifest their forms at multiple sites, simultaneously."

Actually ol' Anthropomorpho is talking about beings with Physical bodies,

like Galactus and such ...

"What about Galactus and some of these guys (Stranger, Mephisto, Celestials)

they DO have Bodies of their own" ...

"CERTAIN PHYSICAL Entities also enlist our sevices to put in an Appearance

somewhere without actually attending"

🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
and since you wanted to post that website to begin with . . .

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/AnomalyI.htm

"Clearly the destruction of the M-Body would not destroy the Anomaly's ABSTRACT existence."

which of course it would were the m-body the totality of any abstract.

Correct,

Same page:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/AnomalyI.htm

"While battling Maelstrom (who WAS the Current Manifestation of Anomaly)"

In the paragraph with "the Origin" active link.

When Maelstrom eliminated the Anomaly, Maelstrom usurped it's place.

If you prefer, I can post plenty of On Panel scans, depicting Maelstrom as the Anomaly during that Quasar arc.

When we last debated this very same subject, I didn't realize that fact, now I know,

just let me know and I'll post them all.