Kas'im versus Count Dooku

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
From Wookiepedia, "Jedi learned elements of each form, though few ever mastered all of them. "

And this helps your argument that Dooku master all forms how?

Now about Wookiepedia and Wikipedia. Both of these websites have shown more information and more in depth analysis into each and every of their articles than Star Wars Databank. I know they are not 100% factual, but many people who debate here reply on Wookie for extra information.

Now when you Search for something at Star Wars Databank, it provides a section to what other websites say and everytime Wookiepedia is on top. If SW Databank is good, why do they need that function. Because Wookiepedia is probably the greatest website for Star Wars knowledge.

Cool opinion. I really don't care.

You idot. He was the lightsaber instructor. He just cannot use it. Soresu is a know and used form in the PT, do you think they're multiple Battlemaster's!!! No, he uses it.

And here's what Obi-Wan says about him in the ROTS novelization:

“Obi-Wan sank to his knees beside the fallen Jedi. “He was my lightsaber instructor . . .””

Obi-Wan had to learn Soresu from somebody. This shows Cin Drallig knows Soresu because he instructed Obi-Wan.

And this helps your argument how?

And yes, Jar’Kai is the art of using two sabers. See Wookie’s article on it, they give many sources.

It is not the "art". It is a WAY of wielding two sabers.

It says straight out that Dooku was Qui Gon's Master

Sorry. I meant where does it say Dooku trained Jinn in Ataru.

Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

You haven't proven it.

I can say it says in BoD Kas'im murders everyone in the PT. Are you going to trust me without evidence? No. Unless you can provide reliable evidence, I'm not believing you.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

Ahem. I don't like repeating myself, so try to argue against me this time. Thanks.

I doubt that Dooku knows all of the forms. For one, he calls Ataru ridiculous. I doubt someone as prideful as Dooku would take time to learn something that he calls ridiculous. However, he did show GG what he could expect from several different Jedi, which I think shows that he knows a little bit of each form with the possible exception of Juyo. The reason for this is because Form Six, which he problably knows pretty well like most other Jedi of his time, uses bits and pieces of his each form with the exception of Juyo and Makashi. So the only forms I think that Dooku knows are Shii Cho, Form Six (can't remember it's name), and Makashi. And the only one that he's probably mastered is Makashi. That's all he needs.

There is no reason to believe that he knows all seven, nor has much less mastered them.

I doubt that Dooku knows all of the forms. For one, he calls Ataru ridiculous. I doubt someone as prideful as Dooku would take time to learn something that he calls ridiculous. However, he did show GG what he could expect from several different Jedi, which I think shows that he knows a little bit of each form with the possible exception of Juyo. The reason for this is because Form Six, which he problably knows pretty well like most other Jedi of his time, uses bits and pieces of his each form with the exception of Juyo and Makashi. So the only forms I think that Dooku knows are Shii Cho, Form Six (can't remember it's name), and Makashi. And the only one that he's probably mastered is Makashi. That's all he needs.

I'm saying that Battlemasters know all forms, so I have the liberty of using Cin Drallig and Dooku. Since both were Battlemasters, they should know the same forms, because they both taught Jedi during the same period.

1.) Dooku and Cin Drallig know Shii-Cho. Every Jedi knows this form.

2.) Dooku knows Makashi. Cin Drallig probably knows elements of this as he could have instructed individuals such as Tholme or Shaak Ti, who use this form.

3.) Cin Drallig knows Soresu. I have given a line from ROTS novelization where Obi-Wan remarks about Cin Drallig, "he was my lightsaber instructor". Since Obi-Wan needed an original source to being Soresu training, Cin Drallig is the one. And Dooku knows Soresu as well. Since Cin knows Soresu, Dooku probably does as well. Also, Wookiepedia says Jedi learn elements of every form, and Dooku as Battlemaster teaches this (since it's his job).

4.) Cin Drallig and Dooku know Ataru. Dooku taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who was an Ataru user. Master teaches apprentice, thus Dooku knows Ataru (though he considers it ridiculous). Cin Drallig knows Ataru because Yoda personally taught Drallig and Yoda was an Ataru user. Also, as lightsaber instructor there are many Ataru using Jedi (like Quinlan Vos) who need an instructor to refine their techniques.

5.) Dooku knows Shien because he says there hasn't been a better Djem So/Shien user than Anakin Skywalker. Dooku, being the Battlemaster, has taught hundreds of Jedi different forms. Apparently, he must have seen dozens of Shien using Jedi, and he knows none have reached the level of Anakin Skywalker.

6.) Dooku and Cin know Niman. That's pretty simple as most of the Order knows this form.

7.) Dooku and Cin know Juyo, not VAPAAD. Juyo is an incomplete form thus they don't openly try to teach it. Every since the Jedi Civil War, Juyo has been in use (people like Zez-Kai Ell used it). Obviously, as Battlemaster they need to know it, but they don't teach it. And if they know every other form, how do they not know Juyo?

8.) Dooku and Cin know Jar'Kai. Dooku is seen using two sabers in pictures and stuff. Also, Cin's apprentice Sara Keto uses two sabers. Thus they know Jar'Kai.

Like I said before, it makes no sense why a Battlemaster knows only two or three forms but nothing else. Jedi need lightsaber instructors who know every form otherwise Jedi are restricted. Every Jedi needs an instructor to work with them, and that is the job of Battlemasters.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
[B]I'm saying that Battlemasters know all forms, so I have the liberty of using Cin Drallig and Dooku. Since both were Battlemasters, they should know the same forms, because they both taught Jedi during the same period.

No, no, no. By your logic, since Sadow can blow up a planet, every single Sith Lord can. Not the case.

1.) Dooku and Cin Drallig know Shii-Cho. Every Jedi knows this form.

Yes, they know the basics of the form.

2.) Dooku knows Makashi. Cin Drallig probably knows elements of this as he could have instructed individuals such as Tholme or Shaak Ti, who use this form.

Point?

3.) Cin Drallig knows Soresu. I have given a line from ROTS novelization where Obi-Wan remarks about Cin Drallig, "he was my lightsaber instructor". Since Obi-Wan needed an original source to being Soresu training, Cin Drallig is the one. And Dooku knows Soresu as well. Since Cin knows Soresu, Dooku probably does as well. Also, Wookiepedia says Jedi learn elements of every form, and Dooku as Battlemaster teaches this (since it's his job).

No, there is no proof Dooku knows Soresu. Just because Cin does, doesn't mean he does. Jedi learn elements of each from through Niman, Prodigal.

4.) Cin Drallig and Dooku know Ataru. Dooku taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who was an Ataru user. Master teaches apprentice, thus Dooku knows Ataru (though he considers it ridiculous). Cin Drallig knows Ataru because Yoda personally taught Drallig and Yoda was an Ataru user. Also, as lightsaber instructor there are many Ataru using Jedi (like Quinlan Vos) who need an instructor to refine their techniques.

Not necessarily. T'ra Saa was Mace's master, but Mace learned Juyo instead of Niman like his master. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, but Anakin practiced Djem-So instead of Soresu or Ataru. So really, that point is moot.

5.) Dooku knows Shien because he says there hasn't been a better Djem So/Shien user than Anakin Skywalker. Dooku, being the Battlemaster, has taught hundreds of Jedi different forms. Apparently, he must have seen dozens of Shien using Jedi, and he knows none have reached the level of Anakin Skywalker.

I'll use the same argument before. I can say Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight boxer. Does that mean I'm an expert heavyweight boxer? No.

6.) Dooku and Cin know Niman. That's pretty simple as most of the Order knows this form.

I agree with this, but say he most likely didn't master it.

7.) Dooku and Cin know Juyo, not VAPAAD. Juyo is an incomplete form thus they don't openly try to teach it. Every since the Jedi Civil War, Juyo has been in use (people like Zez-Kai Ell used it). Obviously, as Battlemaster they need to know it, but they don't teach it. And if they know every other form, how do they not know Juyo?

Maybe because it's illogical to use it? If the from is broken, why try to use it, Prodigal?

8.) Dooku and Cin know Jar'Kai. Dooku is seen using two sabers in pictures and stuff. Also, Cin's apprentice Sara Keto uses two sabers. Thus they know Jar'Kai.

No. Jar'Kai, like I've said before, is WAY to fight with two sabers.

Like I said before, it makes no sense why a Battlemaster knows only two or three forms but nothing else. Jedi need lightsaber instructors who know every form otherwise Jedi are restricted. Every Jedi needs an instructor to work with them, and that is the job of Battlemasters.

No, it doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to be good at something, why not set your mind to it? Why master all of them if you're going to use one? They have multiple lightsaber instructors to cater to different questions, Prodigal.

I thought I told you RocasAtoll, you're a waste of my time. All you say is the same crap over and over again. My argument is against Glentract. But for the sake of being polite, here I go again 🙄 ....

No, no, no. By your logic, since Sadow can blow up a planet, every single Sith Lord can. Not the case.

WTF? Cin and Dooku are Battlemasters of the SAME PERIOD. I don't see how you logic works. If you were saying something like Revan used Lightning, so Malak should to, then that could be credible.

No, there is no proof Dooku knows Soresu. Just because Cin does, doesn't mean he does. Jedi learn elements of each from through Niman, Prodigal.

Again, Cin knows Soresu. I have proved this already when I wrote how he knows Soresu. Obi-Wan himself said so. Stop writing crap.

Not necessarily. T'ra Saa was Mace's master, but Mace learned Juyo instead of Niman like his master. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, but Anakin practiced Djem-So instead of Soresu or Ataru. So really, that point is moot.

Actually, Obi-Wan and Anakin somewhat learned together. They both started over in a way with the same form, Ataru. Only after AOTC do they truly master their own form.

I'll use the same argument before. I can say Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight boxer. Does that mean I'm an expert heavyweight boxer? No.

Shien is a common form in the PT Era. Are you saying BM's don't know it?

No, it doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to be good at something, why not set your mind to it? Why master all of them if you're going to use one? They have multiple lightsaber instructors to cater to different questions, Prodigal.

Actually, there is only one Battlemaster, who knows all forms and teaches elements of each form to a Jedi who wishes to learn it.

Again, Battlemasters need to use multiple forms, not just Ataru, Soresu, Niman, or Shii-Cho. ALL, otherwise the Jedi system doesn't work. While the PT Era has diminished in terms of the Force, their saber strength has been maximized. Why would they want to limit the forms BM's used. The Jedi have holocrons of Juyo, why can't they hav Battlemasters use it? And who do you think Mace Windu began to train with when he first started using Juyo, the battlemaster.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
WTF? Cin and Dooku are Battlemasters of the SAME PERIOD. I don't see how you logic works. If you were saying something like Revan used Lightning, so Malak should to, then that could be credible.

Because Naga blew up a star Kressh should be able to?

Better analogy?

Again, Cin knows Soresu. I have proved this already when I wrote how he knows Soresu. Obi-Wan himself said so. Stop writing crap.

Backtrack; I never said Cin didn't know Soresu. Don't put words in my mouth. I said DOOKU doesn't know Soresu. Understand now?

Actually, Obi-Wan and Anakin somewhat learned together. They both started over in a way with the same form, Ataru. Only after AOTC do they truly master their own form.

What the fvck is this bs? Where does it say ANYWHERE Anakin learned Ataru? Nowhere? Then shut up.

Shien is a common form in the PT Era. Are you saying BM's don't know it?

I'm saying your logic is false.

Actually, there is only one Battlemaster, who knows all forms and teaches elements of each form to a Jedi who wishes to learn it.

Actually, this is completely unfounded. Where does it say the Battlmaster is the only lightsaber instructor? Nowhere? Shut up.

Again, Battlemasters need to use multiple forms, not just Ataru, Soresu, Niman, or Shii-Cho. ALL, otherwise the Jedi system doesn't work. While the PT Era has diminished in terms of the Force, their saber strength has been maximized. Why would they want to limit the forms BM's used. The Jedi have holocrons of Juyo, why can't they hav Battlemasters use it? And who do you think Mace Windu began to train with when he first started using Juyo, the battlemaster.

Where is your proof they do, or logic? Nowhere? Then please be quiet. You still haven't provided a reliable source that says BM's know all forms.

Backtrack; I never said Cin didn't know Soresu. Don't put words in my mouth. I said DOOKU doesn't know Soresu. Understand now?

Dooku and Cin are both battlemasters of the same period. They'll know the same forms.

What the fvck is this bs? Where does it say ANYWHERE Anakin learned Ataru? Nowhere? Then shut up.

Wookie, and in the ROTS novelization Anakin uses Ataru till he switches.

Actually, this is completely unfounded. Where does it say the Battlmaster is the only lightsaber instructor? Nowhere? Shut up.

Can you name anywhere it says there are more than 1 bm? In the NJO, thre is one BM (kyle) and in CW ther is 1 bm (Cin), so why don't you shut up.

Where is your proof they do, or logic? Nowhere? Then please be quiet. You still haven't provided a reliable source that says BM's know all forms.

You're right, I haven't, all I have done is given four pages of material proving that Bm's know all forms using former BM's and sensible reasoning. WOW, you are foolish my friend.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Because Naga blew up a star Kressh should be able to?

Actually, the answer to that question is: yes. And quite easily, too, I might add given the fact that weaklings Aleema and Crado were able to replicate Sadow's feat using the same technology (Sadow's ship) Sadow used to cause solar manipulations to the Dena rii Nova, except their usage was more devastating as it caused a chain reaction.

Horrible analogy to use, considering Sadow by himself can't even cause solar manipulations unless he uses his ship's weapon.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Because Naga blew up a star Kressh should be able to?

Better analogy?

Backtrack; I never said Cin didn't know Soresu. Don't put words in my mouth. I said DOOKU doesn't know Soresu. Understand now?

What the fvck is this bs? Where does it say ANYWHERE Anakin learned Ataru? Nowhere? Then shut up.

I'm saying your logic is false.

Actually, this is completely unfounded. Where does it say the Battlmaster is the only lightsaber instructor? Nowhere? Shut up.

Where is your proof they do, or logic? Nowhere? Then please be quiet. You still haven't provided a reliable source that says BM's know all forms.

1. Nevermind Advent beat me too it.

2. "Skywalkers Shien ready stance had been a ruse, as well as his Ataro gymanstics, the boy was a Djem So specialist." Dooku ROTS novel. Anakin knows Ataru

Thank you AC for the official quote, now Rocas can't say Prove it

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Dooku and Cin are both battlemasters of the same period. They'll know the same forms.

Again, where is this stated?

Wookie, and in the ROTS novelization Anakin uses Ataru till he switches.

Okay then. I'm wrong.

Can you name anywhere it says there are more than 1 bm? In the NJO, thre is one BM (kyle) and in CW ther is 1 bm (Cin), so why don't you shut up.

Did I ever say there was more than one BM? No? Then that was pretty much for nothing.

You're right, I haven't, all I have done is given four pages of material proving that Bm's know all forms using former BM's and sensible reasoning. WOW, you are foolish my friend. [/B][/QUOTE]

you've given one article in Wookiepedia. That's not a reliable source.

Actually, the answer to that question is: yes. And quite easily, too, I might add given the fact that weaklings Aleema and Crado were able to replicate Sadow's feat using the same technology (Sadow's ship) Sadow used to cause solar manipulations to the Dena rii Nova, except their usage was more devastating as it caused a chain reaction.

Horrible analogy to use, considering Sadow by himself can't even cause solar manipulations unless he uses his ship's weapon.

Ya. That was pretty bad. I'll think of a better one later.

Again, where is this stated?

Duh. Right after Dooku retired and leaves the Order, Cin become Battlemaster. Want a source, know your SW history!

I love seeing BM used to abbreviate Battle Masters. A first I think of bowel movement. It makes some really funny sentences out of a lot of posts. 😆

2. "Skywalkers Shien ready stance had been a ruse, as well as his Ataro gymanstics, the boy was a Djem So specialist." Dooku ROTS novel. Anakin knows Ataru

1. It's quote possible that Anakin had some teaching in Niman, which would mean that he would know some of the more basic aspects of Ataru.

2. Knowing some elements of a form does not mean that you know the form. Kas'im had mastery over all of the forms to an extremely high level. It doesn't matter if Dooku or Anakin knew traces of the forms. Why? Because almost every single Jedi in the entire PT Order knows pieces of every form, but very few know all of even ONE complete form.

It says Ataru. Not Niman. It says Ataru gymnastics. That means Anakin knows Ataru, but is not a master of it. When Anakin fought Grievous in AOTC, he was using Ataru. After AOTC does Skywalker go on to master Djem So.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Duh. Right after Dooku retired and leaves the Order, Cin become Battlemaster. Want a source, know your SW history!

Duh. I was talking about how Dooku knows all forms, which you haven't shown.

It says Ataru. Not Niman. It says Ataru gymnastics. That means Anakin knows Ataru, but is not a master of it. When Anakin fought Grievous in AOTC, he was using Ataru. After AOTC does Skywalker go on to master Djem So.

I can know Muay Thai knees. Does that mean I know Muay Thai? No.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
It says Ataru. Not Niman. It says Ataru gymnastics. That means Anakin knows Ataru, but is not a master of it. When Anakin fought Grievous in AOTC, he was using Ataru. After AOTC does Skywalker go on to master Djem So.

When Anakin fought Grevious in AOTC? I think you mean Dooku...
However, when did it ever say that Anakin used Ataru?

See my second point in my previous post.

Last time I checked, Dooku was regarded as one of the greatest Jedi ever. kas'im seems to be lacking any corresponding reference as one of the greatest Sith ever. Add in the fact he has so little feats under his belt and actual showings outweigh simple woords and Dooku is above him. Dooku mastered Makashi and taught Grievous every form. He was the Battlemaster and simply teaching the Jedi students "taces" of every form is ludicrous.... There is nothing remotely proving Kas'im could beat Dooku except a signle quote. It's like Marka Ragnos all over again. And if there is more going for him, then I'd love to hear it becaus eall you people keep babbling about is that one quote. So, I'm waiting for more.

We've already given proof. Read before posting, Nikkolas.