reality manipulator vs. matter manipulator

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He's been officially WHIPPED ! ~

whip

I think he fails to see the distinction. Destroying a universe is not the same as erasing a universe.

Nvrbeenwithagirl.....look at it this way. If you burn someone alive, you destroy thier body, but you do not erase it.

Their remnants and remains exist in another form....corrupted from its original. If you are a matter manipulator you can easily rebuild them to thier original form.

Same with a universe. If you wreck a universe to a state of nonfunctionality, and then use your reality warping powers to reshape it, you are not "creating from nothing"

A standard reality warper cannot "create" realities, only warp currently existing realities.

Better yet take a picture.

You can use photo manipulation software to screw with it , but if you have enough skill you can shape it back to what it originally was. Yet you cannot do that if you simply erase the picture.

All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

Originally posted by Mindship
All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think he fails to see the distinction. Destroying a universe is not the same as erasing a universe.

Nvrbeenwithagirl.....look at it this way. If you burn someone alive, you destroy thier body, but you do not erase it.

Their remnants and remains exist in another form....corrupted from its original. If you are a matter manipulator you can easily rebuild them to thier original form.

Same with a universe. If you wreck a universe to a state of nonfunctionality, and then use your reality warping powers to reshape it, you are not "creating from nothing"

A standard reality warper cannot "create" realities, only warp currently existing realities.

The manisfestation of wisdom...

Eloquently put LU.

Originally posted by Mindship
All else being equal, reality > matter.

A matter manipulator (MM) influences reality in the conventional sense, working with the elementary particles and forces of matter and energy.

A reality manipulator (RM) influences the quantum fields out of which these elementary forces and particles arise; indeed, an RM can influence the wavefunctions of whole events; his/her relationship with reality is much more intimate than reality's is with an MM.

MM is a subset of RM.

I like the way this reads,

but I have to agree with Soljer's definition some what, I'll give you my simple reason.

Jamie Braddock is a matter manipulator, but he can Warp on the Quantum String level, this gave him the ability to Alter the White Hot Room (so called Heart of the Phoenix)

Now the White Hot Room is detached from Reality (beyond Space and Time) so I think it comes down to what extent the manipulator can act.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I like the way this reads,

but I have to agree with Soljer's definition some what, I'll give you my simple reason.

Jamie Braddock is a matter manipulator, but he can Warp on the Quantum String level, this gave him the ability to Alter the White Hot Room (so called Heart of the Phoenix)

Now the White Hot Room is detached from Reality (beyond Space and Time) so I think it comes down to what extent the manipulator can act.

Originally posted by Tshern
Damn, so much stuff I don't know about this highly exaggerated cosmic scene of Marvel. My friend has quite a bunch of issues of cosmic scale stuff like that, but he sucks at recommending anything. I'd like to read about the White Hot Room, are those issues any good?

Here you go friend:

Jamie Braddock Warped the White Hot Room ("Heart of the Phoenix"😉 like child's play.

This is the WHR

Jamie teleported Rachel and Betsy to the Room, then after a short while he begins to Morph the White Hot Room

He appears flying by an image of Captain Britain

Jamie Braddock with total control of the WHR ("Heart of the Phoenix"😉

Jamie Warps it into a Crystal like object.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here you go friend:

Originally posted by Soljer
Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Since these are fictional abilities, one can say anything. I was just giving my spin on it. Obviously there is a distinction. And they can be very similar. That's why I said, All else being equal, and MM is a subset of RM.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reality nor Matter manipulators can create from nothing.

That's why they are called manipulators, because they use what they can.

Even my man MM, Pre or otherwise, could not create from nothing, but he was the most powerful being after Beyonder because he could manipulate anything, no matter the scale.

Originally posted by Soljer
Who is to say that a skilled enough matter manipulator couldn't affect quantum particles? Or change the wave equations of electrons? Or swap fundamental charges? With enough skill, Matter manipulation IS reality manipulation, and vice versa.

Period.

Matter is a by product of reality.

You can have spiritual realms or voids with no matter in them whatsoever.

There would be no matter to manipulate whatsoever.

A reality manipulator can freeze or rewind "time" on the spot. Time is not matter.

To say matter manipulation can compete with what is basically it's more advanced sibling is ridiculous.

Reality manipulation encompasses manipulation of energy, time and matter. So I'd agree, assuming both people are equally skilled, it trumps matter manipulation.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Matter is a by product of reality.

You can have spiritual realms or voids with no matter in them whatsoever.

There would be no matter to manipulate whatsoever.

A reality manipulator can freeze or rewind "time" on the spot. Time is not matter.

To say matter manipulation can compete with what is basically it's more advanced sibling is ridiculous.

That coin spins both ways though,

as you correctly pointed out, a realm with no matter renders a matter manipulator impotent,

but a realm without Time renders a reality manipulator useless aswell.

And what is Time?

a part of Reality,

and what is Reality?

Time and Space.

Incorrect. Reality is energy and that is it.

Time and space are dimensions by which we MEASURE change in energy, but for example in a singularity there is no time or space but there is still energy.

Matter is simply a small form of energy which exists under particular and highly tenuous circumstances.

A reality manipulator is an energy manipulator at the most basic levels. A matter manipulator is just dipping his toe into the kiddie pool.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That coin spins both ways though,

as you correctly pointed out, a realm with no matter renders a matter manipulator impotent,

but a realm without Time renders a reality manipulator useless aswell.

And what is Time?

a part of Reality,

and what is Reality?

Time and Space.

Reality and thus time and space are under the control of the Reality manipulator in your example.

Therefore if the reality manipulator simply wills time then his concept of time is what comes to pass.

Without time, the matter manipulator is completely useless as well.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Reality and thus time and space are under the control of the Reality manipulator in your example.

Therefore if the reality manipulator simply wills time then his concept of time is what comes to pass.

Without time, the matter manipulator is completely useless as well.

Interesting,

that must be the DC outlook on the subject, cause in Marvel Tiame and Space is what makes up Reality.

Without Time and Space (in Marvel) you have nothingness.

When Thanos absorbed the Multi-verse, nothing remained, no Reality.

"Nothing Remained"

Then, in order to bring Reality back:

"Next requires Space and Time which no longer exist"

Also:

When the FURY teleported Jim Jaspers, perhaps the ultimate Reality Manipulator ever in Marvel:

The FURY realizes "Jim can Alter Reality at Whim, what if, there were NO Reality to Altar"

So the FURY, teleports both Jaspers and itself to UN-SPACE

The Result

If your getting your info from DC, I'll agree when debating strickly within the confines of that company, but as you can see, Marvel looks at it differently.

Well in our real world physics concepts, from which both comic lines are derived, reality is only energy. Time and space both started after the universe started in the Big Bang model. Time and space cease to exist within a singularity but we know the singularity exists because of the effect it exerts on the space-time around it.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Well in our real world physics concepts,

Well, since we're dealing with Comics ONLY in these forums, I'm right I must say.

In the real World, which has NOTHING to do with Comics, your right I suppose.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, since we're dealing with Comics ONLY in these forums, I'm right I must say.

In the real World, which has NOTHING to do with Comics, your right I suppose.

if the real world has nothing to do with comics, how then do we know what any of the words in the books mean? Its a made up universe, since it has nothing to do with the real world, how do we know what say Spiderman's or Aquaman's names really mean? For all we know they could be ranks not names.... if there is no connection then we cannot apply our real world meanings of the words Spider, man and aqua to those universes characters names....

Those universes are derived fiction of our own "real" universe and inherit properties from the parent object. Without those properties we, the processors of the data, would not be able to understand what is on the printed page.

Or simply put... "words mean things" to quote Rush Limbaugh....

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
if the real world has nothing to do with comics, how then do we know what any of the words in the books mean? Its a made up universe, since it has nothing to do with the real world, how do we know what say Spiderman's or Aquaman's names really mean? For all we know they could be ranks not names.... if there is no connection then we cannot apply our real world meanings of the words Spider, man and aqua to those universes characters names....

Those universes are derived fiction of our own "real" universe and inherit properties from the parent object. Without those properties we, the processors of the data, would not be able to understand what is on the printed page.

Or simply put... "words mean things" to quote Rush Limbaugh....

Nice,

so what does all this have to with the bottom line:

"Space and Time make up REALITY" to quote Marvel Comics.

Without Space and Time, a Reality manipulator is impotent.

All the wise logic in the World will never change that in these versus forums.

We go by what Marvel & DC say, and that's what we base our debates on.