Revan vs DE sidious

Originally posted by Gideon
Are you asking a genuine question, or are you being obtuse? The tNEC by itself is not a canon source. It is written by an in-universe character. But, it can be used as a source - to reinforce and support other sources and so on.

It is a genuine question. If it is an in universe book, then how could the statement "Sidious was the most powerful sith lord ever", be canon for EU and everything else?

in a shorter version sidious moved faster then the eye could see even before he became emperor reborn why cause mace fought the same way, why do you think he moved so fast two jedi masters couldnt even defend themselves and the last one only lasted a while its not spelled out for you but its implied.

second of all the force storm can be made big so he can indeed use it to defeat raven and its a strong power it was used to destroy an entire fleet thousands of people died.

the force storm before this one is a upgraded version of force lighthing that uses force lightning sept on more then one opponent sometimes it even included wind and stuff to my knowledge.

some of you say how fast is faster then the eye can see umm i think its spelled out for you ho fast that is, luke is said to be so fast he can move so that it looks like 20 sabers are being used at once this is BEFORE DE of course.

Your remarks about Leia being a nobody are pointless, she is a skywalker all the skywalkers even her unborn baby seem to have great potential how else did she and her baby help luke defeat the emperor, it wasnt just like by himself.

You also say she was only a jedi five minutes but who cares luke was not a jedi that long, not compared to anakin, or obiwan or anyone in the first three episodes, luke is stated in wookiepedia to have unlimited aptitude perhaps this is a trait all skywalkers have, anakin was the one of course, his son learned the jedi arts really fast and was good enough then to defeat anakin in one on one combat, he even was taught how to stop force lightning using his hands, sure he didnt win but when he got older not even that much older, his powers became AMAZING they still are.

My point in the above statelment is that just cause leia was a jedi for a short time doesnt mean she was any less of a jedi then anyone else even her baby who wasnt even born was able to help stop DE sidious, and even anakin before he became a jedi did amazing things, defeat the droid army for one, as well as win that pod race using jedi powers.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It is a genuine question. If it is an in universe book, then how could the statement "Sidious was the most powerful sith lord ever", be canon for EU and everything else?

Again: listen.

Any account given by a third-party character is not necessarily canon by itself. For example: Anakin saying "I can take Yoda and Mace at the same time with one hand behind my back" is not canon, especially when there is evidence to the contrary. It is fallible. However, Palpatine saying: "Count Dooku is more powerful than Darth Maul" is not easily disproved, because he trained them both, and is an "authority" on their power.

The tNEC can be used as a source. It just isn't a stand-alone source. If it came out of the blue and said "Darth Bandon was the most powerful Sith Lord in history", it wouldn't apply, because there isn't any other source or information to support such a claim.

In conclusion, the tNEC can be used in arguments as a source and as an article of support. But, standing by itself, it isn't necessarily canon.

Ok I understand that, but at the same time if this is the case, EOD members have a good argument when it comes to the ancient sith and Exar Kun, do they not?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These are the words of that Rodian: "[B]But Exar Kun was far more powerful than any Sith Lord who has come since. But that's all in the past now."

Now where does he says that Exar Kun is more powerful then Malak and Revan, especially when he is talking about the PAST?

And when did "Darth Malak" and "Darth Revan" visited Yavin Station?

He only had heard stories about these two Sith Lords and nothing else. And he can't sense the power of a Jedi. [/B]

Um revan as the redeemed jedi visited the station and helped the rodian.

And i thank you for giving the exact quote because "who has come since" it applies to the moment of the JCW

Yes he heard stories about what revan was capable of, and obviously he knows enough to lay down a judgement, and when did i say he can sense power of a jedi? stop feeding words into my mouth

Originally posted by kamhal
Good point Legend, the rodian is talking about the later sith lords, so he is NOT talking about the current sith lords. And, as legend said well, he didn't even know about malak...

By the way Master Vrook WAS a jedi master during the Great Sith War:

"Vrook Lamar was a Human Jedi Master during the Great Sith War and a member of the Jedi Council during the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War."

"In the years following the Great Sith War, Vrook's primary residence was the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, but he periodically attended Council meetings at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. In the year 3,993 BBY, he attended the Council meetings on Dantooine that directed Shaela Nuur, Duron Qel-Droma, and Guun Han Saresh to continue the Great Hunt that aimed to exterminate the Terentateks—creatures native to Korriban which fed on the blood of Force-sensitives."

So Vrook KNEW about Exar Kun and the fact that he wasn't on tales of the jedi-dark lords of the sith (or sith war) means nothing since there was THOUSANDS of jedis (as you see when they destroyed the republic) and hte books just show the most impotant part of the conflict. Also, for example jolee bindo, he was a friend from Nomi Sunrider and he fought in the Great Sith War. Yet, we never saw him. Are you denying his presence?

So, if vrook was there (and probably other jedi masters like vandar) and he himself says that the force is stronger in revan them in any student he saw before then revan>kun.

By the way, if there are fanboys here i am not one for sure...

Are you dumb or just spiteful? Vrook has never met exar kun and seen what he has done personally as a sith lord, i doubt he has even met exar, all he knew is that exar wasa major threat to the republic, it took thousands of jedi to even attempt to stop exar kun, remember the senate? he froze hundreds of thousands of people with the force. And vrook and jolee werent even aware that he froze the entire senate

Has vrook traind exar? No, has vrook even seen exar? No, the only jedi who trained him was kun, and vrook was refering to revan as a student, Not the sith lord

It is pretty obvious you are a revan fanboy, dont even attempt to call me a exar fanboy because im not, i show fandom towards sidious and vader

O yea and exar even physically killed luke skywalker whom Luke at that time surpassed every one else including revan and he killed gantoris from the inside out.

Originally posted by Gideon
Again: listen.

Any account given by a third-party character is not necessarily canon by itself. For example: Anakin saying "I can take Yoda and Mace at the same time with one hand behind my back" is not canon, especially when there is evidence to the contrary. It is fallible. However, Palpatine saying: "Count Dooku is more powerful than Darth Maul" is not easily disproved, because he trained them both, and is an "authority" on their power.

The tNEC can be used as a source. It just isn't a stand-alone source. If it came out of the blue and said "Darth Bandon was the most powerful Sith Lord in history", it wouldn't apply, because there isn't any other source or information to support such a claim.

In conclusion, the tNEC can be used in arguments as a source and as an article of support. But, standing by itself, it isn't necessarily canon.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um revan as the redeemed jedi visited the station and helped the rodian.

And i thank you for giving the exact quote because "who has come since" it applies to the moment of the JCW

Yes he heard stories about what revan was capable of, and obviously he knows enough to lay down a judgement, and when did i say he can sense power of a jedi? [B]stop feeding words into my mouth [/B]

If a famous Jedi Historian would have made such a claim about Kun's power then their would be a point, but no Jedi or Sith has ever compared Revan and Malak to Exar Kun.

NOTE: Master Dorak, Jolee Bindo and Kreia knew all about Exar Kun but they never claimed that Exar Kun was far more powerful then all the other Sith Lords they know. And they never claimed that Exar Kun was more powerful then Revan.

Also, Revan and Malak (as Sith Lords) never visited Yavin Station. So that Rodian had no clue about their true power and that Rodian's information was very limited about current events.

And you forgot to note this line "But that's all in the past now". That Rodian was talking about Sith in Exar Kun's time actually.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Are you dumb or just spiteful? Vrook has never met exar kun and seen what he has done personally as a sith lord, i doubt he has even met exar, all he knew is that exar wasa major threat to the republic, it took thousands of jedi to even attempt to stop exar kun, remember the senate? he froze hundreds of thousands of people with the force. And vrook and jolee werent even aware that he froze the entire senate

And you think that Vrook was an idiot? he knew lot more about Jedi of his age. And he was a "Jedi Master" in Kun's time. So, do you think that a Jedi Master will not know much about Kun?

Also, it took thousands of Jedi to stop Exar Kun because Kun also had support of thousands of Sith. Right?

And Revan pawned the same Republic in each and every place. Right?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Has vrook traind exar? No, has vrook even seen exar? No, the only jedi who trained him was kun, and vrook was refering to revan as a student, Not the sith lord

NOTE: the Jedi that trained Kun was Vodo actually.

And so what that if Vrook was refering to Revan as a Student? What he clearly indicated was that Revan was strongest in the Force among thousands of Jedi in many years.

Originally posted by Kadesh
It is pretty obvious you are a revan fanboy, dont even attempt to call me a exar fanboy because im not, i show fandom towards sidious and vader

People have different tastes and likings of things.

Originally posted by Kadesh
O yea and exar even physically killed luke skywalker whom Luke at that time surpassed every one else including revan and he killed gantoris from the inside out.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Did you read lightsnakes emails? Dan wallace himself confirmed palpatine by ROTS surpassed everybody

Jt never took thousands of Jedi to stop Kun, stop being stupid. They USED thousands of Jedi, which are two different things. And the Jedi/Republic considered Revan a MUCH greater threat than Kun.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok I understand that, but at the same time if this is the case, EOD members have a good argument when it comes to the ancient sith and Exar Kun, do they not?

I love how people credit every good argument to the guys at EoD, when it was in fact some random member named GM Nebaris who originally pointed that out.

Actually Nebaris is a blubbering moron and has always been, but thanks for the laugh. The people at EOD used to be here and they all used to spew the same crap about Sidious sucking and Luke sucking and verbally fellating the ancient sith and Exar Kun. It was obvious that they left because they couldn't get through to anybody and/or they were wrong, and quasi intellectuals on the internet can't handle defeat.

Nebaris was respected here, pretty much everyone respected him as a debater, including people like Gideon. But that's not the point, I was just saying, the guys at EoD don't deserve the credit, Nebaris does.

Nobody ever respected Nebaris(you), but you've had a long history of denial so I don't mind it so much anymore.

Listen here TDTD, it's already been proven that I'm not Nebaris, so don't be ridiculous.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Calling others dumb will make you look like one actually.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And you think that Vrook was an idiot? he knew lot more about Jedi of his age. And he was a "Jedi Master" in Kun's time. So, do you think that a Jedi Master will not know much about Kun?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, it took thousands of Jedi to stop Exar Kun because Kun also had support of thousands of Sith. Right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Revan pawned the same Republic in each and every place. Right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

How can you claim that Vrook has never met Exar? He was already a Jedi Master at that time. And Jedi Masters are mostly well aware of all the happenings around them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

NOTE: the Jedi that trained Kun was Vodo actually.
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And so what that if Vrook was refering to Revan as a Student? What he clearly indicated was that [B]Revan was strongest in the Force among thousands of Jedi in many years.
.[/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You are also a Fanboy of some SW characters and you always favour those characters, so you stop passing judgements to others.
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And this shows that how strong Luke really was. Believe it! Luke is way too much over-hyped..

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Of-course! he surpassed everybody in [B]PT era. [/B]

what part of "yoda could not defeat the most powerful sith lord in history " do you not understand? And lightsnake has emailed Dan wallace and he confirmed that even palpatine can > ragnos

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jt never took thousands of Jedi to stop Kun, stop being stupid. They USED thousands of Jedi, which are two different things. And the Jedi/Republic considered Revan a MUCH greater threat than Kun.

@S_w_legend.

Just to let you know, kreia stated that the ancient sith > the jedi of the kotor era, saying the great masters of this era(revan because he was truely great) would be as if children playing with toys compared to the ancient sith, and didnt KJA stated that exar > ragnos where ragnos > revan according to kreia?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If a famous Jedi Historian would have made such a claim about Kun's power then their would be a point, but no Jedi or Sith has ever compared Revan and Malak to Exar Kun.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

NOTE: [B]Master Dorak, Jolee Bindo and Kreia knew all about Exar Kun but they never claimed that Exar Kun was far more powerful then all the other Sith Lords they know. And they never claimed that Exar Kun was more powerful then Revan.[/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, Revan and Malak (as Sith Lords) never visited Yavin Station. So that Rodian had no clue about their true power and that Rodian's information was very limited about current events.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And you forgot to note this line "[B]But that's all in the past now". That Rodian was talking about Sith in Exar Kun's time actually. [/B]

So is it safe to say that dan wallace statement in the NEC of palpatine being the strongest is in the past now since POD came out? No

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok I understand that, but at the same time if this is the case, EOD members have a good argument when it comes to the ancient sith and Exar Kun, do they not?

Not really, because there are more sources for "power" regarding Sidious than there are for any other Sith Lord. More sources = more support.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Nebaris was respected here, pretty much everyone respected him as a debater, including people like Gideon. But that's not the point, I was just saying, the guys at EoD don't deserve the credit, Nebaris does.

"Nebaris"? No. No one respected Nebaris. Especially not me. Nebaris was the laughing stock of the debating community. He wasn't incompetent, and couldn't effectively debate that a brown paper bag was a brown paper bag. Quit talking about stuff that you don't understand, Nebaris.

Now, when you came back on other accounts, having watched better debaters debate, you learned some new tricks. Kas'im was decent, when it came to arguing Kas'im and Bane. Otherwise, your debating abilities remained sub-par, as usual.

Likewise, quit calling DS "Tdtd". You weren't here when DS came along, and you weren't here when Tdtd was. So, again, you're talking about shit that you aren't familiar with - which is a usual for you. Rex and the Mods have already confirmed that the sock checker doesn't come up. So, if he's still Tdtd, then there's an equal opportunity that you're Nebaris (which your constant references to stuff in Nebaris's time, his deeds, and you're current fellating of him lead me to believe that you are).

Tdtd was a hell of a lot less annoying than you/Nebaris/Kas'im is/are/was/were.

Originally posted by Kadesh
And telling me im dumb means you are no different 🙂

Originally posted by Kadesh
No, because you failed to prove that vrook actually knew what exar did, vrook didnt even know the amulet existed, he never trained kun as a jedi thus being unable to guage his potential and powers

Training an individual is one thing. But that does not means that you don't get to know about individuals that you don't train.

And how do you know that Vrook does not knows about Amulets?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Wrong, exar was with his massasi whom had no weapons and the jedi came in warships as you were saying?

Originally posted by Kadesh
He used technology, not the force itself as both sidious and exar demonstrated

If Sidious had the power to take over Republic by himself, then he would kill all Jedi by himself and take over the Senate and declare himself the new Leader. But this was not the case. He relied on Manipulation, Secrecy, Advanced Technology and extensive Planning to carry out the necessary actions that would help him gain power.

Only Exar Kun used different approach to fight the Republic and he got a beating of his life on Yavin.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Well then if you say so, were the masters in the movie even aware that palpatine is the sith lord? How can you claim vrook met exar without handing proof? We have seen KJA wrote and illustrate the life of exar kun, have we ever seen vrook meeting him? No we havnt, The whole reason why so it took so many jedis to even stop exar with the wall of light is because they knew they could not even take him 1 on 1

Vrook might not have met Kun but he learned a lot about him. And remember that their were many masters standing on Dantooine, when Vrook told Revan that "Force flows through like in no other Jedi we have seen before". If Vrook was lying then any Master standing near by would have objected and told him that "Oh! wait! Exar Kun was the best in our age". But this was not the case.

Master Dorak was a Jedi Historian and he was the keeper of Jedi Archives. He tells you that both Exar Kun and Revan were big problem for the Republic. He never claimed that Exar Kun was far more powerful then any Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by Kadesh
He was referring to his era, that means JCW
Revan had the greatest potential at that time and he was referring to all the jedi that had existed during that time, he was refering to that, not of all time

Those Masters were already Jedi Masters in Kun's time and participated in GSW. They were obviously talking about all the Jedi that they have seen and heard about in their life-time.

Originally posted by Kadesh
No shame admitting im a fanboy of sidious and vader, why dont you admit you are a fanboy of revan? You made baseless claims saying revan knew deadly sight, that pretty much proves you are a fanboy

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um no, luke by DE had surpassed just about every body else including yoda and he got stronger by JA. And luke isnt overhyped, we have seen him instantly killing enemies with emerald lightning, cloaking an entire planet, removing himself from the force, he made himseld look lke he was wielding 20 lightsabers and manipulating black holes, over hyped? i dont think so

Originally posted by Kadesh
what part of "yoda could not defeat the most powerful sith lord in history " do you not understand? And lightsnake has emailed Dan wallace and he confirmed that even palpatine can > ragnos

Originally posted by Kadesh
Revan had the SF and an hunderds to thousands of warships, of cource he was a greater threat

Originally posted by Kadesh
Just to let you know, kreia stated that the ancient sith > the jedi of the kotor era, saying the great masters of this era(revan because he was truely great) would be as if children playing with toys compared to the ancient sith, and didnt KJA stated that exar > ragnos where ragnos > revan according to kreia?

The only known popular Ancient Sith are:

- Ragnos
- Tulak
- Ajunta
- Sadow
- Kresh
- Nadd

And as I recall - very few Ancient Sith Lords used Light Sabers. Also, only Tulak was believed to be a master swordsman of Ancient times.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Like i said, how many jedis actually know what kun did in the senate?

Originally posted by Kadesh
of course they would know him, What he did has been recorded and thus can be accessed through the archives. As i said, if they had never seen what exar has done, how can they guage him, its like this, You have never seen the amazon river, how are you going to measure its depth, but have you heard rumors about it, yes, its the same in this situation, the masters could not guage his powers, and that rodian was the only one we could count on for information, one who has seen what exar has done

Ulic Qel Droma was also a very powerful Jedi/Sith in Kun's time. But that does not means that Exar Kun was far more powerful then him or was he?

Use some "Common Sense"! Kadesh!

Originally posted by Kadesh
Do you know how to read? i said AS a REEDEMED jedi, he visisted the station, god are you short sighted? When did i ever say malak visisted the station

He does not even know about Revan and Malak and had very little knowledge about events in JCW.

Originally posted by Kadesh
You seem to forget he was talking about the events which took place.

Originally posted by Kadesh
So is it safe to say that dan wallace statement in the NEC of palpatine being the strongest is in the past now since POD came out? No

Understand that Sidious's primary reason for creating an army was not to wield against the Jedi - but perhaps to "police" the friggin' galaxy that he had just conquered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I just pointed out that calling others dumb is not a good way of debating. Once you point a finger towards the other person, the rest of the fingers point back at you. Got it!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Then why don't you prove that Vrook never knew about Exar Kun?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Training an individual is one thing. But that does not means that you don't get to know about individuals that you don't train.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And how do you know that Vrook does not knows about Amulets?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And they blasted the entire Planet to rock. Too bad for Exar Kun!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Sidious also relied on technology to take over the Republic. For what purpose do you think that Sidious ordered the contruction of "army of Clone Troopers" for?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If Sidious had the power to take over Republic by himself, then he would kill all Jedi by himself and take over the Senate and declare himself the new Leader. But this was not the case. He relied on Manipulation, Secrecy, Advanced Technology and extensive Planning to carry out the necessary actions that would help him gain power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Palpatine was acting in secrecy. If the Jedi Council would learn that he was Darth Sidious, then Palpatine would be slaughtered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Vrook might not have met Kun but he learned a lot about him. And remember that their were many masters standing on Dantooine, when Vrook told Revan that "Force flows through like in no other Jedi we have seen before". If Vrook was lying then any Master standing near by would have objected and told him that "Oh! wait! Exar Kun was the best in our age". But this was not the case.

As you were saying?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Master Dorak was a Jedi Historian and he was the keeper of Jedi Archives. He tells you that both Exar Kun and Revan were big problem for the Republic. He never claimed that Exar Kun was far more powerful then any Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Those Masters were already Jedi Masters in Kun's time and participated in GSW. They were obviously talking about all the Jedi that they have seen and heard about in their life-time.
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Funny! but I only give Revan as much credit as he deserves. I don't make tall claims like you know that Revan is the most powerful Jedi or Sith in SW Saga. My conclusion in this thread is also clear regarding Revan vs DE Sidious fight. Now if you fail to notice this and still call me a Fanboy then it is you who is at fault.
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Sidious by ROTS, surpasses all Jedi of PT period in terms of power. And by DE surpasses all Sith Lords in terms of power in entire SW history. Surely this is not very difficult to understand or is it?
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Well! he was much more smarter then Kun and realized that only way to defeat the Republic is through aid of Advanced Technology. Their is a reason that people call Revan a "Genius"..

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Since when Exar Kun became an Ancient Sith Lord. GSW took place only 50 years before JCW.

The only known popular Ancient Sith are:

- Ragnos
- Tulak
- Ajunta
- Sadow
- Kresh
- Nadd

And as I recall - very few Ancient Sith Lords used Light Sabers. Also, only Tulak was believed to be a master swordsman of Ancient times.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Jedi Historians would surely know about this. Use of "Common Sense" is required.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That Rodian was not a "Force Sensitive" being, who could judge that how strong in the Force Exar Kun actually was. He only told about what he has noticed. And was making a claim about Kun's power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

[B]Ulic Qel Droma was also a very powerful Jedi/Sith in Kun's time. But that does not means that Exar Kun was far more powerful then him or was he? [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Then explain to me that how can he know that Exar Kun was far more powerful then Malak and Revan?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He does not even know about Revan and Malak and had very little knowledge about events in JCW.
You have proved my point actually. He was talking about events that took place in GSW.