Darth Vader(TESB) vs Count Dooku(ROTS)

Originally posted by Sexyback
Kadesh, Dooku was merely giving Obi-Wan a demonstration; the way he says, "As you can see, my jedi powers are far beyond your's. Now please, back down!" makes that clear, it's pretty clear he wasn't trying to kill him with that one strand of lightning. I mean, if he really was, why only use one handed lightning when he has displayed the ability to summon it with both hands in the EU.

Oh I definitely agree that Vader can block it, I was just saying.

alright then

dudes, VADER CAN BEAT DOOKU! THE END... Close the topic...

Originally posted by Kadesh
[B]You do know vader has a lightsaber right? to block his lightning which a weak AOTC obi wan could do with no problem,

Well of course Dooku would have to outmanouvre vader to a certain extent first so that Vader couldnt block it with his blade (which shoulnt be to hard to do seeing their extreme speed difference). AOTC Kenobi was given a demonstration of Dooku's power, it was hardly meant to be a killing strike.

And dooku choking obi wan in ROTS big deal, couldnt kill him, while vader choked some one from a ver far distance apart

Good for Vader. He was hardly in a battle situation, let alone a saber duel with an esteemed Jedi Master such as Dooku. Dooku however managed to pick up and choke Kenobi at the same time, while fighting both him and Anakin.

Um dooku was trying to kill obi wan, he did the lightning to the same degree as he did to yoda, Dont have to lie ox. And obiwan blocked the lightsaber nice and easy

Im not lying assh*le. This coming from the same guy who states "z0mg Vader can block lightning with his hands!!!! 🙄

Choke wouldnt kill a force user that easily so why bother to use it? Vader could take grip to a much higher degree called crush, which is around your entire body pushing to its centre of point, There is no evidence that dooku has a defence to this technique, other that the force shield luke demonstrated in DE.

Is there any evidence that Vader could perform such a manouvre in a lightsaber duel - let alone one with a prodigy like Count Dooku. I recall Vader using the technique once (correct me if im wrong). Hardly enough evidence for you to suggest he is going to use the technique willy nilly in a lightsaber duel. Besides, he would be to busy defending against Dooku and his quick attacks to have time to perform such a powerful move.

And i dont get why people think vader is weaker than anakin, even 20 years after ROTS

Well you know, there is the fact he had 3 limbs thrown around Mustafar, had his potential severely damaged, had his lightsaber skills severely damaged, is more machine now than man, and has to walk around in a heavy suit and life support system. 🙄

You know, technically speaking, couldn't Dooku just shoot two strands of lightning that are at such a distant apart that it is impossible to block both strands with just one saber? Maybe Dooku hadn't mastered lightning to that level and doesn't have the accuracy, but in theory, doesn't lightning have the potential to do that?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The argument you were promised Subjekt...

What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree.

Ok, you missed my point. Vader has proven that the choke is something he favors and is extremely good at, so if Dooku could prevent it, as you seem so adamant to proclaim, then vader should have no problem breaking it either, ergo Lightning would be his best bet. And Vader, like Kadesh said, has more fore powers than choke as well.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it.

yes, let's look at the movies...Anakin - hit, OB1 - blocked, Yoda - blocked (twice), mace blocked and redirected on to the user, which affected sidious more than Mace (mace died from the fall people), the only reason mace was even hit, was because Anakin interfered. Mace could have blocked that all day, as apparent by the movie. Yoda - hit with a short blast, Yoda - blocked (twice again) temporarily by saber then by hands, again redirecting it back to the user. Then Luke - hit, no saber. Vader was indirect and wasn't meant to be hit.

So lets tally - hit - 4.5 (i say half cause Vader was technically hit, but not the target.) blocked - 6, and in that 6 it was blocked, redirected twice, and absorbed. So yes, by looking at the movies it reaffirms my original point...thank you. Vader is far more powerful that AOTC OB1 who blocked it with "no problem", so yes Vader could as well.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I don't doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.

ok, i hardly see Dooku breaking Vader's concentration...how do you propose he would do that? And again, what good is being fast if you're being choked to death? This can go back and forth all day.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I don't see what point you are trying to make. I don't see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not.

Cause he was getting older, he's a human, so age would eventually play a part, unlike someone say like Yoda whose species can obviously live hundreds of years. That part, to me, is speculation, but he didn't seem as powerful in ROTS as he did in AOTC. Perhaps cause he didn't have time, what with getting pwned and all.

Originally posted by Sexyback
By watching TPM, and then watching the OT. Maul is far more skilled, and his speed and agility would likely overwhelm Vader in seconds.

Originally posted by Sexyback
He still kept up with him before using the darkside, Vader wouldn't be able to do shit to Maul.

Originally posted by Sexyback
And I would agree with that.

Originally posted by Sexyback
No, that's not what I'm saying Mr. Strawman, all I'm saying is that by GL's own admission, anybody in the PT movies who we actually properly see fight is a better duelist than Vader, we don't ever see Serra Keto properly fight, that wasn't my argument.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I'm not twisting shit. You are
(a) Misconstruing my argument.
(b) Arguing against canon.

Gl makes it clear that the duels we see in the PT are much faster and better, and that the OT duelists are clearly lacking in skills in comparison to the PT duelists. And that's really not that hard to believe Subject, you're just being a fanboy if you disagree, and arguing against canon.

So I'm sorry, but you have lost. Dooku is a better duelist than Vader, much better. It's a fact.

And just so you know, choke can be blocked, refer to PoD.

no no, I'm not arguing against canon, I'm "Interpreting it differently" as to not be spoon fed by GL and LChee...right? The "Duels" were faster and flashier in the PT, and yes they were slower in the OT, but for obvious reasons...but i know that halfassed excuse that GL gave is canon, at least until the show comes out. And who the hell are you to call anyone a fanboy, "Kas'I'm"? Obviously it's not a fact, as you haven't proven shit. Post a scan from PoD please, if it is in there.

Jim: Yo what up lame-ass transitive property?
Lame-ass transitive property: This!!!

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=020

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=025
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=026
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=027

Jim:... WTF was that about?
Lame-ass transitive property: Well, you see, the first scan shows that individual, Kir Kanos, being compared to the likes of a Jedi. The additional posts show someone assumed to be on par with Kir Kanos (and thus a Jedi) getting WTFZOMGSTFULOLERSKATEZROFLBBQPWN3D by Vader. Thus, Jedi = Kir Kanos. Kir Kanos = Other guy. Other Guy<<<<<< Vader. Therefore, Jedi <<<<<< Vader.
Jim: Wow, your argument is filled with holes. That old man is fallible, we don't know what Jedi he's seen fight, and, in actuality, it just doesn't really work...
Lame-ass transitive property: Still, it does kind of add up. Also, the author had to put it in there for a reason, and even without my visually awkward math, the feat itself is very impressive.
Jim: I guess you're right...

Scene.

You cant compare skill levels when one is going all out and the other isn't. That's just no logical at all. Jumping and flipping around is useless if you're being bullied with the force. Maul's a tool when it comes to the force.

Hold up, so Vader wasn't going full out against Ben in ANH. Good luck proving that.

And again, I was only talking about saber ability, so I don't see why you're bringing up all this bs about the force.

He was keeping up with him when QGJ was still there to help. He didn't utilize the darkside til Jinn was killed. Point collapsed.

Don't try that bs with me Subjekt, my point isn't collapsed, he still displayed some competence against Maul, and some skill, more than Vader ever displayed. And so what if he used the darkside, as if Vader doesn't?

Hardly. Jinn didn't display anything to suggest being able to pwn Vader.

Speed, agility and skill, much more than vader did.

Ok seriously, the strawman shit is corny.

Well if you try that shit with me, that is what you shall be called.

And that is your argument. She was a PT duelist, just cause we don't see her fight doesn't mean she wasn't a PT duelist.

No she wasn't. PT refers to the movies, not the era. Serra Keto never appeared in the movies. And George Lucas made it clear that he was only referring to those who appear in the movie, given that he was talking in respect to choreography.

Also, GL did not say "Anybody from the PT is a better duelist that Vader." Those words never left his mouth. He said the Pt duelists were overall better, but that is in no way indicative that any one from the PT can defeat Vader.

'I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we had already done, but a more energized version of it because we've actually never seen real jedis at work, we've only seen old men and crippled half droid half men and young boys that have learned from these people'

It's there in black and white Subject, GL makes it clear that the OT duelists are inferior to the PT duelists.

As I'm sure Ox will agree, Dooku with his form is technically;;y a better duelist that ROTS Anakin, but look what happened...A young kid with 1 mastered form, completely pwned a BM.

What is your point?

no no, I'm not arguing against canon, I'm "Interpreting it differently"

That's a typical excuse from someone arguing against canon, 'interpreting it differently', don't be silly.

as to not be spoon fed by GL and LChee...right?

I'm sorry, but what GL says goes.

The "Duels" were faster and flashier in the PT, and yes they were slower in the OT, but for obvious reasons...but i know that halfassed excuse that GL gave is canon, at least until the show comes out.

Until then, you'll just have to accept that Vader sucks.

And who the hell are you to call anyone a fanboy, "Kas'I'm"? Obviously it's not a fact, as you haven't proven shit.

Ignoring canon and letting bias shroud your decisions makes you a fanboy Subjekt.

Post a scan from PoD please, if it is in there.

I don't have to, anyone else who has read it will confirm it, just ask Sexy.

edit

Originally posted by Sexyback
Hold up, so Vader wasn't going full out against Ben in ANH. Good luck proving that.

And again, I was only talking about saber ability, so I don't see why you're bringing up all this bs about the force.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Don't try that bs with me Subjekt, my point isn't collapsed, he still displayed some competence against Maul, and some skill, more than Vader ever displayed. And so what if he used the darkside, as if Vader doesn't?

Originally posted by Sexyback
Speed, agility and skill, much more than Vader did.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Well if you try that shit with me, that is what you shall be called.

Originally posted by Sexyback
No she wasn't. PT refers to the movies, not the era. Serra Keto never appeared in the movies. And George Lucas made it clear that he was only referring to those who appear in the movie, given that he was talking in respect to choreography.

Originally posted by Sexyback
'I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we had already done, [b]but a more energized version of it because we've actually never seen real jedis at work, we've only seen old men and crippled half droid half men and young boys that have learned from these people'

It's there in black and white Subject, GL makes it clear that the OT duelists are inferior to the PT duelists.[/B]

Originally posted by Sexyback
What is your point?

Originally posted by Sexyback
That's a typical excuse from someone arguing against canon, 'interpreting it differently', don't be silly.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I'm sorry, but what GL says goes.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Until then, you'll just have to accept that Vader sucks.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Ignoring canon and letting bias shroud your decisions makes you a fanboy Subjekt.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I don't have to, anyone else who has read it will confirm it, just ask Sexy.

Remember that when you try to tell people to post scans when other people can just as easily verify their claims. Two way street. "And I won't believe you til you post a scan." Pffff...

Apparently you don't know how to read. ESB and ANH, while both containing 3 letters, are in fact not the same. Thanks though.

However ANH gives a clear idea of how he fights when going full out, and his power increase in dueling by ESB wouldn't likely have been too big. But anyways, the point is, ANH makes it clear that he is slow and unagile, so your point that he was holding back in ESB is irrelevant.

And the fact that this thread doesn't say in just saber dueling, which would include "all this force bs".

That's not the point, my post was only in respect to dueling, and you tackled it in respect to the force. Doesn't quite work.

No he didn't.

Yes he did. I seem to recall quite an impressive flip over his head to begin with, he was doing almost as good as Qui-Gon.

And the fact that using the darkside fueled his prowess, is a big deal considering that if he hadn't, he would have been dead. And you right, since Vader does, what does that tell you? Do the math.

My point was, you seem to be implying that Obi-Wan using the darkside is some kind of unfair advantage, well the fact that Vader constantly uses it and he would never be skilled enough to take down Maul should tell you something.

How do you measure skill? By getting killed in one movie or lasting many years after killing MANY Jedi of the same era while being in that suit as well? Hmm...

By using my eyes, and listening to Lucas.

Oh yea, well I'm rubber and you're glue, I fvcked your mom and so did you. Dude, childish.

Those are some impressive rhymes, you should contact Jay Z and try to get signed.

EXACTLY, choreography, not skill. He didn't have the same people working on the PT as he did the OT.

But choreography displays their actual skills, what don;t you get about this. You can whine all you want about choreography and budget, but it doesn't change the fact that the movies are the highest form of canon.

And wasn't that Serra we saw being choked by Ani while fighting Cin at the same time? She was in the movie then.

No, it was some other random padawan.

Overall yes, I already agreed to that. What I'm saying is that a PT duelist wont and cant automatically beat Vader.

Yes, they can.
PT duelists = 'real jedi'.
Vader = 'crippled half droid half man'.

The fact that on paper, Dooku was a "better duelist" and was beaten by a lesser Duelist. Meaning that Vader, as a lesser duelist, could again just as easily beat a better duelist.

Unluckily for you, we don't usually factor luck in a vs. fight.
And it's not that Dooku is only just better, according to Lucas he is leagues better, whereas Anakin and Dooku were pretty close in skill.

Thats an excuse that came from you, high speed.

Mine was valid, your's is not.

Remember that when you try to argue with Advent an Escape when they provide quotes.

That's if they're clear cut like this one. If I've ever argued against a GL quote, it's because the overall message is ambiguous.

Yea that's why he outlasted EVERYONE to include every sith and Jeid from the PT.

I think I'll stick with Lucas rather than listen to your lame insults.

Remember that when you try to tell people to post scans when other people can just as easily verify their claims. Two way street. "And I won't believe you til you post a scan." Pffff...

Different situations. Lightsnake is the only person who has read the article that I demanded a scan from, whereas many people have read PoD and can confirm it.

However ANH gives a clear idea of how he fights when going full out, and his power increase in dueling by ESB wouldn't likely have been too big. But anyways, the point is, ANH makes it clear that he is slow and unagile, so your point that he was holding back in ESB is irrelevant.

According to Memorable Quotes from Star Wars (1977) from IMDb

Darth Vader says the following line to Ben Kenobi:

"Your powers are weak, old man."

Obviously Darth Vader is aware of weak Kenobi is in terms of lightsaber combat when he confronts him. That is why he lazily slams his lightsaber into him. We've seen Darth Vader trying harder in Empire Strikes Back (even though he wasn't going all out), and in ANH, Darth Vader is able to kill Kenobi fast and efficiently. By Vader mentioning the line to Obi-Wan, we've seen how Vader finds Obi-Wan very weak in dueling skills. That's why Vader does not even half try and manages to finish old Ben Kenobi, because the movies clearly as well (apparent difference in lightsaber skills from ANH to ESB for Vader, which makes no sense if Vader was going all out).

Your point is moot. Abandon this point of discusion. It is useless. General Kenobi out...

Edited.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well of course Dooku would have to outmanouvre vader to a certain extent first so that Vader couldnt block it with his blade (which shoulnt be to hard to do seeing their extreme speed difference). AOTC Kenobi was given a demonstration of Dooku's power, it was hardly meant to be a killing strike.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Good for Vader. He was hardly in a battle situation, let alone a saber duel with an esteemed Jedi Master such as Dooku. Dooku however managed to pick up and choke Kenobi at the same time, while fighting both him and Anakin.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Im not lying assh*le. This coming from the same guy who states "z0mg Vader can block lightning with his hands!!!! 🙄
.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Is there any evidence that Vader could perform such a manouvre in a lightsaber duel - let alone one with a prodigy like Count Dooku. I recall Vader using the technique once (correct me if im wrong). Hardly enough evidence for you to suggest he is going to use the technique willy nilly in a lightsaber duel. Besides, he would be to busy defending against Dooku and his quick attacks to have time to perform such a powerful move..

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Well you know, there is the fact he had 3 limbs thrown around Mustafar, had his potential severely damaged, had his lightsaber skills severely damaged, is more machine now than man, and has to walk around in a heavy suit and life support system. 🙄

i dont think dooku is as powerful as sidious when it comes to lightning, but he can shoot it with both hands, and no mace wouldnt hold the lightning all day long even the book said it would eventually have gotten him cause of the toxins off the lightning and saber, and sidious was becomming stronger with mace hitting him with his own lightning bad move, there was a time when vader fought someone and they shut down his systems. I have no idea how anakin defeated dooku when he cant even beat obi wan and obi wan is owned by dooku every time they meat. total bull i guess but they can always say that he tapped into his hidden potential but being better then dooku i dont think so.

Well IMO...

Anakin > Dooku

But...

Anakin > Darth Vader

Cause...

Lost Limbs, Lost Skin, Lost Organs, Slowed down because of suit, and less Force...

So...

Darth Vader = Dooku

Or

Darth Vader < Dooku

P.S Anakin pwned Dooku. End of Story.

P.S.S this is from the databank...

He bested Kenobi, knocking the Jedi unconscious with a brutal Force push, but was unable to overpower Skywalker. Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him.

Originally posted by Kadesh
And hasnt vader as anakin seen dookus lightning before? That he knows how would dooku strike his lightning? Wouldnt he know how to counter it this time? i think so

Just because Vader has seen Dooku perform the lightning hardly means he knows how to effectively counter it. Especially taking into account then nature in which he saw it (Dooku raises his hand a second later he gets blasted by it, not much time to observe details). All Vader has to do to block it anyway is by channeling it into his blade. However, because of Dooku's superior speed and precision, I find it more than reasonable to beleive he will be able to manouvre himself into a position to maximize the lightning and eliminate Vader with it.

Tsk tsk vader choked a jedi master while fending of 2 other jedi masters on kessel, and he was still cocky and arrogant during the purge. We are talking about OT vader who would be far stronger than his EU counterpart

Perhaps, but the 8 Jedi you refer to absolutely pwned Vader. Vader would have lost had his precious Stormtroopers not made an appearance. Besides, those Jedi were weak in comparison to the Count. Because Vader could perform the technique then does not mean he can perform it on Dooku now.

Force dissipation? We dont have evidence so this is refuted

Lol, im not going to go into this argument again. Ill let the point drop if you so desire.

Why not? he could perform a silly choke when fending of 8 jedi masters if i recall, And isnt a power of crush instant? lightning,push,pull choke,crush are all instant and there is no line of fire, meaning that once crush is executed you get hit, just like grip

Has Vader ever used a force crush in a lightsaber duel? Not that I can remember (although please correct me if im wrong). However, for some strange reason you think he is going to be able to perform it on Dooku like its some sort of Godly, unstoppable technique. I highly doubt that Vader would be able to crush Dooku, for several reasons. The first, he has never used it in a duelling situation. Secondly, he is up against an esteemed Jedi Master come Sith Lord who is going to be one of the toughest battles Vader has ever experienced. If Vader hasnt used it before in a fighting situation I dont see how he could do it now. Lastly, Dooku is a far faster fighter than Vader. I can hardly see how Vader is going to keep up with the Counts attacks as it is, let alone pulling of a crush as well.

You should know that by getting his legs hacked off he learnt his lesson to control himself and not go apeshit right? That now he can beat his opponents being calm

Fair enough. I dont really care which is stronger. This is Dooku vs Vader, not Vader vs Anakin.

Dooku kills Vader...

what is so special about defeating eight jedi even grevious who has NO FORCE POWERS was owning what six jedi the first time he appeared, and two of them where jedi masters i dont know if aayla is one but i know shaak ti and the guy with the big head are, he owned both of them even with there force powers, im not saying jedi are not powerful but im just saying that the ones we see in the movies are not run of the mill jedi, yoda is one of thee most powerful jedi in history, so is windu, and dooku has huge force potential, he fought grevious during training practive efforletsly and his force powers did not miss there mark. Anakin and obi wan are especially powerful jedi, just under them are kit fisto i guess, but i see nothing special about shaak ti, i havent read much about the big headed dude but he probably would have died in his duel with grevious, its not vaders fault he's slow i mean he has to wear his horribly made armour that is just way to heavy for him, beside that dooku is one of the only poeple who beat mace windu, you all forget this guy is an expert fighter, he also did ok against yoda, and that fight with maul they say is not canon is said to be canon by other sources and in that fight vader barely defeated maul, when it comes to force powers i give it to vader or maybe there equal im not sure, but i have no idea who is a better swordsmen i think the fight in ROTS was pure bull since anakin cant even handle obi wan and obi wan got owned by dooku very early in the fight, but i can see how anakin might have momentarily tapped into his power, or who knows maybe sidious did something to dooku to make him weaker that is a sith power you know but im just speculating on this last part.