And Gideon, if a character is not contradicted, there's no reason to doubt that character's statement. if Tobin said Nihilus could shoot Death Star blasts from his eyes, that would be contradicted by other things. However the quote about the Ravager is reasonable enough.
Hardly. And the statement is contradicted by the loading screen.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Your first point is illogical. Tobin's statement and the loading screen do not contradict each other.For instance, if I say "Anakin Skywalker boraded the Invisible Hand to save the Chancellor" and then someone else says "Obi-Wan and Anakin boarded the Invisible Hand to save the Chancellor" are these two statements at odds?
No. One just mentions Obi-Wan and the other doesn't.Tobin mentions the Ravager and a fleet. The loading screen only mentions the Ravager.
As for why the other ships didn't look beat up...didn't Tobin and Onderron give him some stuff?
And Gideon, if a character is not contradicted, there's no reason to doubt that character's statement. if Tobin said Nihilus could shoot Death Star blasts from his eyes, that would be contradicted by other things. However the quote about the Ravager is reasonable enough.
What I was referring to is the fact that it is mentioned that Nihilus escape Malachor on the Ravager. We see that ship has gotten the crap kick out of it, then why would the other sith interdictor ships not be damaged? It makes no sense for him to give the other ships the "pimp my ride" treatment and leave the Ravage looking shitty.
As for your point of Tobin donating ships,I highly doubt that Tobin and Vaklu of Onderon have access to a fleet of sith interdictor ships from Revan and Malak's sith empire.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Your first point is illogical. Tobin's statement and the loading screen do not contradict each other.For instance, if I say "Anakin Skywalker boraded the Invisible Hand to save the Chancellor" and then someone else says "Obi-Wan and Anakin boarded the Invisible Hand to save the Chancellor" are these two statements at odds?
No. One just mentions Obi-Wan and the other doesn't.Tobin mentions the Ravager and a fleet. The loading screen only mentions the Ravager.
Allright. So. Why would Nihilus, being stranded on Malachor V, use his powers to lift an entire fleet from the planet? You know. He couldn't have had too many followers, as the MSG killed anything down on the surface, him excluded. So why would he lift multiple ships from the graveworld, when he just needs one to get away?
And even more odd: Why would he use his abilities to lift damaged star-fighters? Another capital ship would be the more reasonable decission. Especially since the guy doesn't care about his ship(s) at all.
But that's just a sidenote because I have some nice (and annoying) fact for you: He can't have pulled the Sith Interdictor ships from Malachor? Why? Because the Battle of Malachor was the last battle of the Mandalorian Wars, which means that Revan and Malak hadn't turned into Sith at that point in time and hadn't discovered the Star Forge. That, of course, means, that there were just Mandalorian and Republic ships present but clearly - and with clearly, I mean "absolutely" - no Sith ships like those Starfighters.
Ups. So much for that theory.
As for why the other ships didn't look beat up...didn't Tobin and Onderron give him some stuff?
Oh...wait. So, for you, it's more reasonable to estimate that Nihilus, having no need for Starfighters whatsoever, did lift them up from Malachor V, despite of the fact that they can't have been there, carried them through the entire Galaxy with a force manouver, just to have them be repaired on the other side of the Galaxy - instead of assuming that he got some brand new starfighters from Tobin / Onderon / elsewhere.
Smart idea...
And Gideon, if a character is not contradicted, there's no reason to doubt that character's statement. if Tobin said Nihilus could shoot Death Star blasts from his eyes, that would be contradicted by other things. However the quote about the Ravager is reasonable enough.
Blah. Blah. Blah.
Even if he did lift the complete fleet from Malachor - who cares? He will still have to deal with several thousands of Jedi Knights who are ready for battle and prepared for any force attack that might come. Do you really think he can overpower them with telekinesis?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well Mace has the rare ability to redirect dark side power via the superconductive loop created from vappad. Seeing how force drain is a dark side power, i don't see how Mace couldn't use vapaad in order to have Nihilus power redicted at him, thus draining himself.
The problem there lies in the avenue of attack. Nihilus does not use a conventional force drain, he is actually a hole, a wound in the force. He severs force connections and feeds of of the resulting pain. Mace's use of Vapaad in the force would not be effective against an attack that removes his connection to the power source. The only person able to withstand the drain is the Exile, because he was also a wound in the force. Traya claims that there are attacks in the force 'against which there are no defense.' It is very likely that the Nihilus drain is unblockable.
Nihilus uses the dark side of the force to create some kind of a bond with his victims. After he bonds with them he suck them dry of the force. When Traya say there is no defense against the drain technique, that was several thousand years before Windu's time. Vapaad was not even created at that time.
...If Nihilus is given a little space, I can see the team taking the Council out. You do recall that in ROTS Anakin is put on the Council. As I recall, his mastery of the Force sucks ass. As I also recall, his defense against Force techniques also sucks ass. And, as I recall some more, he has the highest Force potential ever. Draining him alone would be a good meal for Nihilus, boosting his power to insane levels. And with Sion buying him some time by being diced to pieces by everyone else...sure, the team can get through the Council.
I find it hard to believe that they would be able to overcome the entire ROTS Order, though. Then again, if Nihilus clears the Council, he would have a substantial power boost. It isn't completely unreasonable.
That being said, I'm going to say the team beats the Council. And withhold any judgment regarding their battle with the entire Order afterwards, because it just sounds wrong in my brain to even consider that they can win - yet that's exactly what I'm entertaining possibilities of.
It's times like this when I ask myself, "What would Faunus do?"
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nihilus uses the dark side of the force to create some kind of a bond with his victims. After he bonds with them he suck them dry of the force. When Traya say there is no defense against the drain technique, that was several thousand years before Windu's time. Vapaad was not even created at that time.
I'll argue on your terms. IF we accept your proposal of how the Drain works, then Vapaad wouldn't help at all, regardless of how new Vapaad is. Vapaad copies the powers of the Dark sider it is fighting. It would actually copy the 'dark side bond with his victims' and in effect double the connection.
I highly doubt that making the force bond closer would help Mace. When he begins to get drained, it might even copy the drain, giving the same results as a drain on the Exile did. Vapaad's superconducting loop simply wouldn't be a valid defense against the drain as you described it.
If Nihilus and Sion just get popped into the Council chamber surrounded by the twelve greatest Jedi in the Order, they would get minced. But yes, if they had some space Nihilus could do some messy shit to them.
However, I highly doubt that a creature that requires the Force energy of entire planets to satiate itself would get a significant power boost from the Council, even if the two most powerful Jedi up to that point are included. Somehow, Anakin, Yoda, and the rest don't really compare to several million Force-sensitives in terms of "Force-food."
Originally posted by Faunus
However, I highly doubt that a creature that requires the Force energy of entire planets to satiate itself would get a significant power boost from the Council, even if the two most powerful Jedi up to that point are included. Somehow, Anakin, Yoda, and the rest don't really compare to several million Force-sensitives in terms of "Force-food."
This is very true, but per KMC Versus rules we're using Nihilus at full capacity - meaning he's not hungry, starving, or weak. In essence, it shouldn't matter too much. We get him at full power, and after he snacks on the Council, he either gets heartburn, or gets uberwtfpwn DE skills.
Originally posted by Jbill311
I'll argue on your terms. [b]IF we accept your proposal of how the Drain works, then Vapaad wouldn't help at all, regardless of how new Vapaad is. Vapaad copies the powers of the Dark sider it is fighting. It would actually copy the 'dark side bond with his victims' and in effect double the connection.I highly doubt that making the force bond closer would help Mace. When he begins to get drained, it might even copy the drain, giving the same results as a drain on the Exile did. Vapaad's superconducting loop simply wouldn't be a valid defense against the drain as you described it. [/B]
Visas Marr was not effected by the drain.
Completely speculative. Why would he inspect a planet he thought completely dead?
If he can kill off the entire conclave of Jedi that were on Katarr at the time, including three members of the Jedi High Council, an untrained Force-sensitive like Visas wouldn't have survived if he hadn't intended her to.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vapaad does not copy the powers of the dark side. It works as a superconductive loop that channels dark side attack back to its caster.Visas Marr was not effected by the drain.
Vapaad is not only a defense against powers, it is a state of mind. In the novelization, Mace 'sinks into vapaad'. It is the common consensus on KMC that Mace isn't faster than, or even as fast as Palpatine, that he actually had to use Sidious' power against him.
Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
Mace took Palpatine's power and speed and used it against him. He sends back exactly what is sent at him.
Also, Visas was never targeted by the drain. On Katarr, she was the only one spared. On the Ravager, the Exile is the only one targeted.
P.S. It is more gramatically correct to say "Visas Marr was not affected by the drain. While both are correct, the later is considered common usage, as the former was not.
Nihilus' ability seems to function the same as the Force Harvester, except faster, deadlier, and to FAR greater degree.
Mace that if the Dark Reaper was brought back it would mean the end of the Republic, however Anakin learned from a holocron of Ulic at his tomb on Rhen Var the abilities to resist its effects. Apparently, no other Jedi learned these techniques due to fear of falling to the darkside...
No such ablilties exist for what Nihilus does (probably due to technical differences and his raw ability) in fact, only another wound in the force can stand up to Nihilus' Drain/Sever/Strip (the Harvester can't feed on wounds either, go figure).
As far as Sion goes, there are only a handful of Jedi that pose a remote threat if any.