Originally posted by quanchi112
But the point is he was amped and should have easily destroyed her as his powers were exponentially raised and the fact he was out to kill. He didnt and so its a horrible showing against an already weaker character. 😬The reason why he sunamped isnt relevant. The point is he had one and that he failed to soundly defeat a WW who was holding back.
PIS IS PIS. No amount of explaining will change the fact that Superman has beaten WW in the past without a sun amp and without anyone claiming they were holding back.
The things he did to her in that comic, he could have done without need of sun amping. So unless you can identify the difference sun amping made, the fact that he sun amped is irrelevant.
It's interesting that you mention WW holding back when she pretty much admits that she can't keep up with Superman in the long run (that's when she uses her tiara).
Originally posted by quanchi112
Its canon and I dont call on pis every time I disagree with something.
I am not saying Superman does not have this ability I am saying when he brawls he brawls. I bet in his overall fights its 3-1 at least in favor of him just fighting without superspeed involved.
He's brawled so many different ways depending on who was writing him. And he's used his speed plenty of times, enough that we can throw away "in character" arguments. Characters that he brawls with have at least enough speed to match him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Give me a few examples of Superman dominating powerful foes with them having no counter to his superspeed.
Easy. The Elites. Their meta human level rivaled Superman's and he completely owns them with speed, hv etc. He moves so fast that he harnesses moving air as a weapon and creates an air vacuum to asphyxiate one of the Elites. It was an impressive display of speed. And speed is speed. Thanos is much slower than Superman regardless of what power he might have.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Oh so now we discount that Supes only hit him once and he is a regular human. You seem to be full of excuses. Point is anyone claiming Supes rocks someone 1,000 times in a second is being ridiculous and that comics dont support their views.
This is completely daft. Have you no grasp of the term PIS? To argue over Superman's speed based on an encounter with THE MR. JOBBER AURA, Batman is completely idiotic. Hitting Batman once? We're talking about Superman the guy who moved so fast the Elites couldn't see him. Batman shouldn't be able to do anything but get disembodied faster than the speed of a thought. Really, and you're actually serious?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Oh and in the Cyborg/Supes fight no superspeed was used there either.
Because it isn't a factor. Cyborg being a kryptonian clone should be able to keep up with Superman speedwise.
Originally posted by HazsekswthurmomIt just shows your picking and choosing.
Sorry Quan, but your logic reeks of kenyan ball sweat.😬 I'd rather take Mantis's classic respectable feats, over his current shitty ones.....especially since they by far outweigh his newer ones.I love how you pick and choose a character's feats(rather it's the low for the ones dislike, or the high for the ones you love) and speak about them as if they're the most accurate and consistent portrayals around. It's easy to blatantly ignore established canon, it's as fun as it's a shitty way to debate. 🙂
The sheer fact that your trying to play this off as if it's a low showing, tells me how far you'll go to to demean a character. If anything, that should be a high showing. Mantis alone should one shot Superman to hell, adding Kalibak should be overkill.
I'll give you credit for one thing though. You may have not proved how Superman is overrated, but you did prove that Dc tends to over power him to point that he makes everyone, from their grandma and aunt, look pathetic in comparison.
If you want to live in the distant past and ignore the current ones then that is your problem.
I dont ignore anything. Supes has high feats and he has low ones. He is still very powerful but all it takes is a lucky punch from a Kalibak type charcter to have him at that character's mercy.
Superman hasnt made Superman Prime look weak,Monarch raped three Supermen along with other heroes easily,Cyborg raped him,Iman easily pwned him,Gog from jsa treated kc Supes like a bad child,etc. Supes isnt more powerful than everyone he is greatly exaggerated by many fans out there.
Pay attention Superman has never defeated Orion,Black Adam,Hal Jordan,etc. There are a few top tiers that Superman has yet to prove on panel he is superior to yet you claim he is so powerful. Hes a tough top tier but hasnt been established or other top tiers in dc.
Again Mantis isnt the same one in pc. This one basically gave up with just seeing Orion. In this story he was portrayed like a bumbling idiot.
Again current Supes got stunned by Kalibak and had to be saved to get out of this jam. 😛
Originally posted by quanchi112Noted for cherry picking low feats and ignoring evidence. crackers
It just shows your picking and choosing.If you want to live in the distant past and ignore the current ones then that is your problem.
I dont ignore anything. Supes has high feats and he has low ones. He is still very powerful but all it takes is a lucky punch from a Kalibak type charcter to have him at that character's mercy.
Superman hasnt made Superman Prime look weak,Monarch raped three Supermen along with other heroes easily,Cyborg raped him,Iman easily pwned him,Gog from jsa treated kc Supes like a bad child,etc. Supes isnt more powerful than everyone he is greatly exaggerated by many fans out there.
Pay attention Superman has never defeated Orion,Black Adam,Hal Jordan,etc. There are a few top tiers that Superman has yet to prove on panel he is superior to yet you claim he is so powerful. Hes a tough top tier but hasnt been established or other top tiers in dc.
Again Mantis isnt the same one in pc. This one basically gave up with just seeing Orion. In this story he was portrayed like a bumbling idiot.
Again current Supes got stunned by Kalibak and had to be saved to get out of this jam. 😛
durelly
Originally posted by RaoulOk lets have at it then.
how do you know if that's true or not? he was fighting superman after all...incorrect.
didn't even phase him? sweet lord... and you say [B]I
exaggerate? bull. shit.You know what, let's do this...
First of all, the Kalibak/Mantis fight:
First Scan:
Now. The writer says (he doesn't hint, he doesn't insinuate, he says DEFINITIVELY) that Superman is taken by surprise by Kalibak's strength and speed... Superman has fought Kalibak plenty of times before, so the fact that he was surprised lends credence to the opinion that Kalibak was amped... Even if he wasn't Superman recovers in seconds and smacks Kalibak.
Second Scan:
Clark BFR's Kalibak and heads after Mantis, intent on protecting Scott Free. Nothing out of the ordinary there.
Third Scan:
Superman is concentrating on Kalibak, and gets smacked with an energy blast by Mantis, which sets him up for:
Fourth Scan:
In Starlin's own words "So that Kalibak could put everything he had into one incredibly lucky and devastating blow."
Yes, that's right, EVERYTHING HE HAD. LUCKY. As in:
–adjective, luck·i·er, luck·i·est.
1. having or marked by good luck; fortunate: That was my lucky day.
2. happening fortunately: a lucky accident.
3. bringing or foretelling good luck, or supposed to do so: a lucky penny.Kalibak puts all his might into ONE BLOW, and its still only through blind luck that he STUNS, not KO's, STUNS Superman... The same Superman who still has the presence of mind (despite just being whacked with a NEW GOD weapon) to protect Scott Free any way he can. So he grabs both of them, and:
Fifth Scan:
SUPERMAN slams THEM into the ground. Not the other way around, HE smashes THEM into the ground. Tell me again how that means he lost?
Sixth Scan:
All three are on the ground. Kalibak says Clark is down, yet he's still awake, and Kalibak says "Let us finish him." Clark says "I don't think so." Which means he KNOWS Orion is coming. Mantis even says "Doesn't look like he's trying (to get up). And why's he smiling". This is pretty damning evidence that Superman knew Scott was safe and that Orion was coming in, meaning he had no reason to continue fighting.
Now, the fight with the Infinity Man.
In this scan:
Superman tells Infinity Man that if they slug it out long enough, Superman will beat him. Infinity Man doesn't argue, or disagree, or anything like that, he actually agrees, saying: "Then it would be judicious of us to cut short your assault and encase you within a prison of solidified light."
Starlin doesn't hint, he doesn't leave it vague, he just lays it simply and definitively...
If you don't agree with the fight, then fine, go the Dwayne Mcduffie route and disregard the fight as being poor writing. If you aren't going to do that, though, you take it as it is.
Now, if you don't like Superman, FINE. Just admit it, and move on, it doesn't make a difference to me. If you've convinced yourself that you do give him credit, then ok, if you think he can be beaten by Thanos, Thor, Surfer, Wonder Woman or WWH, then fair enough, that's your choice. But you use evidence. You research.
You do not twist scans to suit your own purposes, you do not lie, and you do NOT TROLL THE FORUMS WITH UNFOUNDED STATEMENTS.
You can reply if you wish, but i've said all i'm going to... [/B]
You have always defended Superman and twisted scans imo so this doesnt shock me at all.
How could you misinterpret what the writer's message was here.
It was said he had spent too many years with lesser beings. Meaning he was lazy being at the top of the food chain and underestimated new god strength. He underestimated him is all. This was explained right there for you. How could you miss it? How? This leads me to believe that he wasnt amped but that he underestimated his strength which was stated on panel for you. You want to believe he was amped because you like Superman. If he was amped then how could Orion beat him with an ally. He had Mantis with him whereas before he crushed Orion on his own now he loses with Mantis?
Supermn says,Kalibak you are much more stronger than I figured which backs up the fact he underestimated his opponent is all.
Superman says that Mantis alone stands no chance meaning he is inferior to Superman and isnt even in the same class as Superman or Orion at the top of the top tier food chain. He is a joke now compared to his precrisis days which I said from the start.
Superman got caught off guard next with an unexpected energy strike. This set him up for Kalibaks lucky strike. Even through the misfiring synapses Superman managed to do what his gut always tells him to do protect Scott Free. He is a hero so this is no surprise and he grabs ahold of their legs and takes them down with him. It would be like knocking me senseless and me grabbing you as I fell. No big thing there at all.
Note these key words.
IT WAS THEN THAT IT DAWNED ON KALIBAK THAT HIS BATTLE STRATEGY LEFT SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED. SO MANY MISTAKES.
This means he screwed up left and right and didnt fight perfect by any means. It still got him the better of Superman. It was avery flawed strategy.
Then Superman is on his back. He is smiling because he says backup in the sky. They say to each other he is bluffing and cant EVEN GET TO HIS FEET. The reason he smiled is because Orion was there to save him which was proven by their words. If he coul dhave gotten up in time he would have.
Then Orion shows up and Mantis surrenders before a punch is thrown like I said. If this Kalibak was amped and the same one that destroyed Orion why did he not beat him again with help this time.
Because the writer didnt recognize his amp for this story.
Kalibak with a flawed strategy and with an inferior sidekick had Superman dead to rights. Superman underestimated them and was ttaken off guard and then blasted by a lucky strike. But a strike tha had Superman on his back senseless after the drop.
He couldnt get to his feet and it was mentioned and was obvious he was stunned and at their mercy and he smiled because he was Orion was on the way.
Ok now wit the Im man scenario.
The beginning of the fight Im told him you are not a new god and shouldnt be involved in this matter. Meaning he wasnt there for Superman and he should leave as this doesnt concern him.
IM says,"Acknowledge my superior might,Knian, an depart. Your STRUGGLE IS FUTILE. Funny you leave this out.
Supes the blasts him with a full shot of heat vision which Im easily endures.
He then tells him he is the prime agent of the sources will and his power is nearly without limit. His blast did more damage than Supermans pointless blast. He is telling Superman he is a lot more powerful than him and this is obvious.
Supes tells him he is capable of shattering planets. Ok thats fine. If a character let Superman punch him all day it could eventually defeat him. But Im easily encased him. Easily. He wasnt here for Superman and was a lot more powerful than him.
The Im wasnt there for Superman which is pretty evident. Thats the reason he jus easily encased him as opposed to killing him. Im destroyed Orion who in this series crushed Kalibak and Mantis and proved to be Superman's equal in this story. So you assuming he could beat the Im is ridiculous. His punches did no damage and the Im wouldnt sit there and let him punch him over and over.
Respond if you will.
Originally posted by fangirl101😂 I can't really do anything about cherry picking feats. *Rereads the Moderator Guidelines Handbook*
[QUOTE=10677729]Originally posted by Badabing
[B]Noted for cherry picking low feats and ignoring evidence. crackersI was like FINALLY, Then I noticed the lil smiley thing. back to the drawing board.
😛
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok lets have at it then.You have always defended Superman and twisted scans imo so this doesnt shock me at all.
How could you misinterpret what the writer's message was here.
It was said he had spent too many years with lesser beings. Meaning he was lazy being at the top of the food chain and underestimated new god strength. He underestimated him is all. This was explained right there for you. How could you miss it? How? This leads me to believe that he wasnt amped but that he underestimated his strength which was stated on panel for you. You want to believe he was amped because you like Superman. If he was amped then how could Orion beat him with an ally. He had Mantis with him whereas before he crushed Orion on his own now he loses with Mantis?Supermn says,Kalibak you are much more stronger than I figured which backs up the fact he underestimated his opponent is all.
Superman says that Mantis alone stands no chance meaning he is inferior to Superman and isnt even in the same class as Superman or Orion at the top of the top tier food chain. He is a joke now compared to his precrisis days which I said from the start.
Superman got caught off guard next with an unexpected energy strike. This set him up for Kalibaks lucky strike. Even through the misfiring synapses Superman managed to do what his gut always tells him to do protect Scott Free. He is a hero so this is no surprise and he grabs ahold of their legs and takes them down with him. It would be like knocking me senseless and me grabbing you as I fell. No big thing there at all.
Note these key words.
IT WAS THEN THAT IT DAWNED ON KALIBAK THAT HIS BATTLE STRATEGY LEFT SOMETHING TO BE DESIRED. SO MANY MISTAKES.
This means he screwed up left and right and didnt fight perfect by any means. It still got him the better of Superman. It was avery flawed strategy.
Then Superman is on his back. He is smiling because he says backup in the sky. They say to each other he is bluffing and cant EVEN GET TO HIS FEET. The reason he smiled is because Orion was there to save him which was proven by their words. If he coul dhave gotten up in time he would have.
Then Orion shows up and Mantis surrenders before a punch is thrown like I said. If this Kalibak was amped and the same one that destroyed Orion why did he not beat him again with help this time.
Because the writer didnt recognize his amp for this story.
Kalibak with a flawed strategy and with an inferior sidekick had Superman dead to rights. Superman underestimated them and was ttaken off guard and then blasted by a lucky strike. But a strike tha had Superman on his back senseless after the drop.
He couldnt get to his feet and it was mentioned and was obvious he was stunned and at their mercy and he smiled because he was Orion was on the way.
Ok now wit the Im man scenario.
The beginning of the fight Im told him you are not a new god and shouldnt be involved in this matter. Meaning he wasnt there for Superman and he should leave as this doesnt concern him.
IM says,"Acknowledge my superior might,Knian, an depart. Your STRUGGLE IS FUTILE. Funny you leave this out.
Supes the blasts him with a full shot of heat vision which Im easily endures.
He then tells him he is the prime agent of the sources will and his power is nearly without limit. His blast did more damage than Supermans pointless blast. He is telling Superman he is a lot more powerful than him and this is obvious.
Supes tells him he is capable of shattering planets. Ok thats fine. If a character let Superman punch him all day it could eventually defeat him. But Im easily encased him. Easily. He wasnt here for Superman and was a lot more powerful than him.
The Im wasnt there for Superman which is pretty evident. Thats the reason he jus easily encased him as opposed to killing him. Im destroyed Orion who in this series crushed Kalibak and Mantis and proved to be Superman's equal in this story. So you assuming he could beat the Im is ridiculous. His punches did no damage and the Im wouldnt sit there and let him punch him over and over.
Respond if you will.
It amazes me that you can get so much of DoTnG and not more important part's of it 🙄 . Which means you do it intentionally or not, annoying anyway I look at it... Good response though to Raoul
Btw Thanos overrated, then Superman
Originally posted by AllanklesAgain I am not claiming that Superman isnt better than WW. But if a character cant soundly defeat a character he is better than without the amp with the amp its a horrible showing.
PIS IS PIS. No amount of explaining will change the fact that Superman has beaten WW in the past without a sun amp and without anyone claiming they were holding back.The things he did to her in that comic, he could have done without need of sun amping. So unless you can identify the difference sun amping made, the fact that he sun amped is irrelevant.
It's interesting that you mention WW holding back when she pretty much admits that she can't keep up with Superman in the long run (that's when she uses her tiara).
He's brawled so many different ways depending on who was writing him. And he's used his speed plenty of times, enough that we can throw away "in character" arguments. Characters that he brawls with have at least enough speed to match him.
Easy. The Elites. Their meta human level rivaled Superman's and he completely owns them with speed, hv etc. He moves so fast that he harnesses moving air as a weapon and creates an air vacuum to asphyxiate one of the Elites. It was an impressive display of speed. And speed is speed. Thanos is much slower than Superman regardless of what power he might have.
This is completely daft. Have you no grasp of the term PIS? To argue over Superman's speed based on an encounter with THE MR. JOBBER AURA, Batman is completely idiotic. Hitting Batman once? We're talking about Superman the guy who moved so fast the Elites couldn't see him. Batman shouldn't be able to do anything but get disembodied faster than the speed of a thought. Really, and you're actually serious?
Because it isn't a factor. Cyborg being a kryptonian clone should be able to keep up with Superman speedwise.
Sun amp makes him more powerful in every way. The sun amp doesnt change his abilities it amplifies them. 😂
No that is incorrect. Does Solon Grundy have speed equal to Superman's? Does Mantis? Does Kalibak? Does Mongul? Does Hercules?
I mentioed WW holding back because she was. That changes things and she wasnt out for the kill like Superman was and she was taking into consideration that he is her friend and his health. She only wanted to free herself long enough to take out his mind controller not him. 😬
Thanos has met characters with speed before and pwned them easily. Superman is no different. Supes has lost to characters inferior to Thanos before and he isnt even close to his level.
I am merely destroying the myth of Superman getting in 1000 or so punches in a second. He couldnt even hit Batman more than once. He is a human and make up all the excuses you want to its all canon friend.
Originally posted by kevdudeAgain no one agreed with your interpretation of dong on here in that thread.
It amazes me that you can get so much of DoTnG and not more important part's of it 🙄 . Which means you do it intentionally or not, annoying anyway I look at it... Good response though to RaoulBtw Thanos overrated, then Superman
My interpretations are ground in logic imo. Not everyone is going to agree on everything I understand this but we each have our own opinions. 🙂
Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Concerning the first part, I'll get back to you with some scans once my comics are in order. I need to organize about 400 so...when I get to Lucifer I'll hopefully remember.Concerning the second part, no. Lucifer wanted more. He rebelled. Ok, let's say that was God's plan. But at the point where he speaks to God and God asks him to merge...nah...
At the end he escaped the plan, but God never asked him to merge; they were going to become two new beings.
Plus, you said if I found someone saying he beat God then you'd concede your point. Be the better man and let's hear it.
Originally posted by Air Legend
You don't have to come back with scans. Just tell me the issue and page number; I own the entire series.At the end he escaped the plan, but God never asked him to merge; they were going to become two new beings.
Plus, you said if I found someone saying he beat God then you'd concede your point. Be the better man and let's hear it.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about Leon saying Lucifer beating God and threatening to destroy him in the void, that right wicker?