Ragnos Runs The Gaunlet !!!!

Originally posted by General Kenobl
You calling me a jackass? Look who is talking.

My bad, refining is not the best term. What I mean is when Sith Lords like Revan learned the Ancient Sith techniques, they mastered it to a very high magnitude. I say Revan's mastery of these Dark Side techniques > Ragnos's mastery of the Sith powers.

I am pretty sure you know Revan's and other Sith Lord's feats and powers. [/B]

Yup, but I wouldn't place them on par with the most powerful ancient sith.

How? Everything he knew, everything that made him what he was, came from the era of the Ancient Sith. You know, the Golden Age of the Sith which saw Ragnos as its head? Please.

Faunus, are you implying that simply because Revan is in Ragnos's lineage of information and knowledge, that Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him? If that is the case, then any Sith who ruled before Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him. Lightsnake is correct in one instance - raw power and natural abilities aren't measured by knowledge. So assuming that they possess the same knowledge, it is still very possible for Revan to be more powerful than Ragnos, given all the hype about Revan's connection with the Force is far more descriptive and impressive than anything on Ragnos.

Likewise, as we've said before, techniques and knowledge can be improved and extended upon given time. Ragnos's century of existence does not come close to matching the amount of time that thousands of generations of Sith Lords have all spent studying the Force. Thus, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but just because Ragnos was a member of the Ancient Sith when a lot of dark side techniques were created doesn't necessarily mean at all that he is as powerful as Revan.

Originally posted by Gideon
Faunus, are you implying that simply because Revan is in Ragnos's lineage of information and knowledge, that Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him? If that is the case, then any Sith who ruled before Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him. Lightsnake is correct in one instance - raw power and natural abilities aren't measured by knowledge. So assuming that they possess the same knowledge, it is still very possible for Revan to be more powerful than Ragnos, given all the hype about Revan's connection with the Force is far more descriptive and impressive than anything on Ragnos.

Likewise, as we've said before, techniques and knowledge can be improved and extended upon given time. Ragnos's century of existence does not come close to matching the amount of time that thousands of generations of Sith Lords have all spent studying the Force. Thus, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but just because Ragnos was a member of the Ancient Sith when a lot of dark side techniques were created doesn't necessarily mean at all that he is as powerful as Revan. [/B]

That is your opinion and nothing more. Revan learned the techniques and became uber powerful. Ragnos and the ancient sith invented these techniques, but suddenly they can't master their own techniques? Lets be serious here. Once again the ONLY instance we have of someone using the ancient sith techniques better than the ancient sith, and to an extent never seen before, is DE Sidious who incidentally is the most powerful sith.

Maybe ignoramus, when two people know something and begin to master it, one just becomes simply better.

Like what Escape said, just because Ragnos and his Sith invented these techniques, does that mean they mastered it fully. No, that depends on Ragnos's ability to use the Force. Sidious > Ragnos because his mastery and ability to the Dark Side as well as his lightsaber skill surpass the skills of the Ancient Sith Dark Lord. Same thing for Revan. His ability to use the Force and his skill with the lightsaber is probably greater than Ragnos.

Originally posted by Gideon
Faunus, are you implying that simply because Revan is in Ragnos's lineage of information and knowledge, that Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him? If that is the case, then any Sith who ruled before Ragnos must automatically be more powerful than him. Lightsnake is correct in one instance - raw power and natural abilities aren't measured by knowledge. So assuming that they possess the same knowledge, it is still very possible for Revan to be more powerful than Ragnos, given all the hype about Revan's connection with the Force is far more descriptive and impressive than anything on Ragnos.

Likewise, as we've said before, techniques and knowledge can be improved and extended upon given time. Ragnos's century of existence does not come close to matching the amount of time that thousands of generations of Sith Lords have all spent studying the Force. Thus, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but just because Ragnos was a member of the Ancient Sith when a lot of dark side techniques were created doesn't necessarily mean at all that he is as powerful as Revan.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Maybe ignoramus, when two people know something and begin to master it, one just becomes simply better.

Like what Escape said, just because Ragnos and his Sith invented these techniques, does that mean they mastered it fully. No, that depends on Ragnos's ability to use the Force. Sidious > Ragnos because his mastery and ability to the Dark Side as well as his lightsaber skill surpass the skills of the Ancient Sith Dark Lord. Same thing for Revan. His ability to use the Force and his skill with the lightsaber is probably greater than Ragnos. [/B]

They likely did master them, hence the Golden Age of the Sith. I guess with all the wars against the Republic and all the internal strife, they didn't have time to fully master their own techniques. Oh wait..
Sidious was pretty much the perfect dark side being. Ragnos strength was described as incredible, and his command of the darkside was frightening. All you're doing is shooting off random unwarranted speculation.

It is possible, assuming Revan had more natural abilities and potential than Ragnos. I find it hard to believe anyone but Sidious had all the abilities to be more powerful than Ragnos. Also, let's say we are saying the first were the greatest. Even if that were the case, and we are talking about the ancient sith as a whole, meaning the 2,000 years they were on Korriban, Ragnos is still confirmed as the most powerful of the ancient sith. His knowledge base and apparent skills were good enough to rule untouched for over a century during the greatest era. If that's not saying something, I don't know what is Escape.

Perhaps Ragnos never had a Sith like Revan during his tenure as the Dark Lord.

So you're saying quantity>Quality? Would you rather learn from a holocron, or from the master himself? Which one possesses more quality escape? The simple fact that Ragnos WAS the greatest and most powerful ancient sith, and that he was always the spokesman for the sith spirits, puts him at the very least, near Revan, if not above. Not to mention he had over 100 years to study and create techniques during the Golden Age. Logical deduction points to Ragnos>Revan.

Darth Revan mastered an entire Sith Empire during a very martial time between Jedi and Sith. He was shown to have been Malak's superior (and Malak was crazy good) and had considerable mastery over the Ancient Sith's Dark Side techniques.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm glad you specified that you weren't putting words in my mouth, because that's the conclusion I would have come to. What I'm trying to get at is that all the vaunted knowledge and expertise of Revan were passed down from Ragnos's people. Hence, I see nothing suggesting that his arsenal puts him above the mightiest of said civilization.

Again, if you're basing this conclusion simply by the knowledge that was passed down, am I to assume that any Lord of the Sith predating Ragnos is automatically more powerful than him?

Master it to what extent pray tell? Lets see.. Revan learning from a holocron.. Or Ragnos creating the technique. Which one has more of a chance of mastering it. Sidious was the only known Sith to take ancient sith teachings and master them to their fullest extent. All you have is speculation, "ignoramus".

A Holocron, imbecile, is used for that very purpose: to pour all the Dark Side techniques so a future generation can learn from it in case the Sith Empire collapsed.

And even then, Revan learned some Dark Side techniques. The reason why he is so powerful because he mastered these techniques to a very high degree. That's why he is so legendary and powerful.

They likely did master them, hence the Golden Age of the Sith. I guess with all the wars against the Republic and all the internal strife, they didn't have time to fully master their own techniques. Oh wait..
Sidious was pretty much the perfect dark side being. Ragnos strength was described as incredible, and his command of the darkside was frightening. All you're doing is shooting off random unwarranted speculation

A Golden Age does not simply refer to the Sith being able to master all their invented techniques. It refers to so many different aspects: cultural and technological advancement, etc.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Perhaps Ragnos never had a Sith like Revan during his tenure as the Dark Lord.

Darth Revan mastered an entire Sith Empire during a very martial time between Jedi and Sith. He was shown to have been Malak's superior (and Malak was crazy good) and had considerable mastery over the Ancient Sith's Dark Side techniques. [/B]

Which techniques exactly? The ones he picked up from the ancient sith but was never shown to use because there was no need for them? What is your point?

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, if you're basing this conclusion simply by the knowledge that was passed down, am I to assume that any Lord of the Sith predating Ragnos is automatically more powerful than him? [/B]

No. Ragnos was not stated to be more powerful than anyone before him.

Edit: Likewise, prove that "Ragnos" came up with all the dark side techniques. Unless it's stated in canon that the Ancient Sith (during Ragnos's time) specifically came up with all or most dark side techniques, it's ridiculous to assume he'd master them to the level that his forerunners have.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
A Holocron, imbecile, is used for that very purpose: to pour all the Dark Side techniques so a future generation can learn from it in case the Sith Empire collapsed.

And even then, Revan learned some Dark Side techniques. The reason why he is so powerful because he mastered these techniques to a very high degree. That's why he is so legendary and powerful.

A Golden Age does not simply refer to the Sith being able to master all their invented techniques. It refers to so many different aspects: cultural and technological advancement, etc. [/B]

Not this Golden Age.

Originally posted by Gideon
No. Ragnos was not stated to be more powerful than anyone before him.

Edit: Likewise, prove that "Ragnos" came up with all the dark side techniques. Unless it's stated in canon that the Ancient Sith (during Ragnos's time) specifically came up with all or most dark side techniques, it's ridiculous to assume he'd master them to the level that his forerunners have.

Ok Escape, here's logical deduction.

Premise 1:The ancient sith(Whether before or during Ragnos), created all of these techniques.
Premise 2: Ragnos was the most powerful of all the ancient sith

Conclusion: Ragnos knows at least SOME of these techniques.

Nobody said "all".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok Escape, here's logical deduction.

Premise 1:The ancient sith(Whether before or during Ragnos), created all of these techniques.
Premise 2: Ragnos was the most powerful of all the ancient sith

Conclusion: Ragnos knows at least SOME of these techniques.

Nobody said "all".

:erm: You just said "all". Ragnos was said to be "the most powerful of the most powerful" at his time. That does not automatically include all of the Lords of the Sith prior to him.

Originally posted by Gideon
:erm: You just said "all". Ragnos was said to be "the most powerful of the most powerful" at his time. That does not automatically include all of the Lords of the Sith prior to him.

No, not his time Escape you know this. Ragnos was the most powerful of the ancient sith. That means from 6900 BBY to 5000 BBY. Anyways we'll continue this later, I actually have to do some work.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, not his time Escape you know this. Ragnos was the most powerful of the ancient sith. That means from 6900 BBY to 5000 BBY. Anyways we'll continue this later, I actually have to do some work.

Good. Take the time to provide me proof. Where is Ragnos stated to be more powerful than any Sith prior to him? I want quotes and sources.

Revan was known more for his skill as a tactician, and his beliefs, than for his power. That's not to say he's prolly #3 on the all time list, but I'm just saying.

Nice job for totally changing the topic.

Which techniques exactly? The ones he picked up from the ancient sith but was never shown to use because there was no need for them? What is your point?

WTF? I am talking about the holocrons in which he learned from.

No because Ragnos was stated as the most powerful. And if this IS the case, think of it this way, and I don't know if it's a good example. Remember the game where there's 20 people in a circle. First person whispers something to the next guy. Buy the time it goes around, there's only a fraction of what the original guy said. Not sure if that really makes sense in this case, but the point is Ragnos and the ancient sith created and perfected these techniques, and passed them down. Obviously if someone after them had more potential and raw abilities, they'd be able to master them to another extent, but unfortunately the only one we see with this capability is Sidious.

That's a faulty analogy in two different ways:

1) When an Ancient Sith Spirit teaches a future disciple, he will teach all of his repetoire, not just do some selective power thinking. The Ancient Sith want to further the Sith Empire in every way possible, including teaching possible future Dark Lords.

2) When a Sith Lord makes a holocron, he pours all of his teachings into it? Why? Because the Sith knows when he dies, he'll need a way to pass his teachings to a future generation of Sith Lords so that they too can one day create Sith Empires and such and such.

Thus your example that the Sith techniques become less and less as generations go down is not truly valid.

And I see Revan, Vader, Kun, and Bane all having such raw power and potential surpassing that of Ragnos.

What is the exact quote for the "most powerful of the most powerful," in full context? I thought it said something along the lines of "Marka Ragnos, Sith Lord, the most powerful of the most powerful," and that the most powerful of the most powerful part was simply referring to the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. Meaning the most [disambiguous] powerful [/disambiguous] was the Dark Lord.

Still, these guys are "The best of the best." Are they above the likes of, let's say. Dooku? http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=022

Excuse me? If he was the most powerful of his era, he would be stated as the "most powerful". However, and I'm not genius interpretater, but I interpret "The most powerful of the most powerful" as the most powerful of all the ancient sith. As in 6900 BBY to 5000 BBY.. I thought we've had numerous discussions about this, I don't know why people are playing stupid. There's NO need to state that Ragnos is the most powerful of the time because that's a given as a DLOTS. Hence, the most powerful of the most powerful, THE DARK LORD, means he's the most powerful and greatest of the ancient sith. Not to mention that again, he crowns the DLOTS of the sith and speaks for the ancient sith for a reason, and not because of his good looks. Too much anti ancient sith rhetoric.

What if the ancient sith are all pussys and ragnos is only the strongest of the weak?