That would refute facts that the ancient sith were the strongest as a whole, and all the techniques they created made later sith lords uber powerful.
Kadesh does bring up a valuable point DS. How powerful were the Sith under Ragnos's reign? We know for one, that they were not martial, considering how Lord Marka did not want to bring the attention of the Republic and the Jedi upon them.
By Golden Age, it does not mean they were the strongest Order. A Golden Age can refer to their advancements in the fields of science and culture, not only in sith swords and Force. You can't deny that.
Originally posted by General Kenobl
Kadesh does bring up a valuable point DS. How powerful were the Sith under Ragnos's reign? We know for one, that they were not martial, considering how Lord Marka did not want to bring the attention of the Republic and the Jedi upon them.
By Golden Age, it does not mean they were the strongest Order. A Golden Age can refer to their advancements in the fields of science and culture, not only in sith swords and Force. You can't deny that. [/B]
Gee lets see. Sith..Golden Age of the sith. Aka the time where the sith were the most powerful and knowledgable in the sith arts. This is common sense. And I don't have to make a case for Ragnos being more powerful than Revan, right now it's more than likely without me having to constantly defend Ragnos.
That could simply be stating that the Dark Lord of the Sith was the most powerful of the Sith, and not be specified to Ragnos. Basically a job description, to simplify it. Also, if the term "power" is always ambiguous with PT characters, why is Ragnos exempt from this? Could it mean politically or economically?
No. In references to power, we all know what it means. If it wasn't referring to personal power, it would elaborate or not be in there. I'm not going to use a double standard to try and downplay a fictional character. It would look like Ragnos was the most powerful of the Ancients by the time of his death. Could he have been surpassed by Sadow? Maybe. However, we have numerous feats and quotes that reveal that Sidious is the most powerful Sith.
One thing to consider: Was his era weak? I mean, to me they always seemed like their powers were just that of watered down Jedi, who bred with some primitive species. I mean, their alchemy is amazing, as are their inventions, but, as far as personal power goes we only see Sadow throw a small brick at far from lethal velocities (and we have no examples from Ragnos at all). Despite this, due to quotes of him having a "Frightening grasp of the dark side" and the like, I'll try and make a semi-accurate call, and say he makes it to 2, Obi Wan, and loses. He would probably go down to Obi Wan in melee, but, Ragnos' skills in melee were only tested, without any visual aid, against an opponent who we know just as much about. So, my guesses are just that, guesses, and, there is no reason for me to try and say that yours are wrong, if we both have an equal chance of being wrong.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
That could simply be stating that the Dark Lord of the Sith was the most powerful of the Sith, and not be specified to Ragnos. Basically a job description, to simplify it. Also, if the term "power" is always ambiguous with PT characters, why is Ragnos exempt from this? Could it mean politically or economically?
No. In references to power, we all know what it means. If it wasn't referring to personal power, it would elaborate or not be in there. I'm not going to use a double standard to try and downplay a fictional character. It would look like Ragnos was the most powerful of the Ancients by the time of his death. Could he have been surpassed by Sadow? Maybe. However, we have numerous feats and quotes that reveal that Sidious is the most powerful Sith.
One thing to consider: Was his era weak? I mean, to me they always seemed like their powers were just that of watered down Jedi, who bred with some primitive species. I mean, their alchemy is amazing, as are their inventions, but, as far as personal power goes we only see Sadow throw a small brick at far from lethal velocities (and we have no examples from Ragnos at all). Despite this, due to quotes of him having a "Frightening grasp of the dark side" and the like, I'll try and make a semi-accurate call, and say he makes it to 2, Obi Wan, and loses. He would probably go down to Obi Wan in melee, but, Ragnos' skills in melee were only tested, without any visual aid, against an opponent who we know just as much about. So, my guesses are just that, guesses, and, there is no reason for me to try and say that yours are wrong, if we both have an equal chance of being wrong. [/B]
That's your assessment and you're entitled to your own opinion although I personally think you are dead wrong with a weak argument.
You cannot call his era weak, because the most powerful ancient sith designed techniques that all other sith lords following them used to become exponentially powerful. All I see is a weak attempt to discredit the ancient sith.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering the ancient sith lived by the principle of the strongest being the dark lord and that anyone can challenge the DLOTS for the right of the title, it would mean personal power. He was repeatedly called the most powerful of the most powerful, THE Dark Lord. Hence the leader of all the ancient sith, always the spokesman for the spirits of the ancient sith. All the evidence is there, just use logical deduction.Surpassed by Sadow? The guy that hated him but obeyed him while he was alive? The guy who didn't dare challenge him for the title of DLOTS? Again, all evidence points to Ragnos being the most powerful ancient sith.
That's your assessment and you're entitled to your own opinion although I personally think you are dead wrong with a weak argument.
You cannot call his era weak, because the most powerful ancient sith designed techniques that all other sith lords following them used to become exponentially powerful. All I see is a weak attempt to discredit the ancient sith.
I already said that I know it was personal power. The first sentence of your post could be what that quote is elaborating on. It could simply mean that whoever is the Dark Lord is the most powerful. Do you get what I'm trying to say? When was he repeatedly called the most powerful? I've seen that one quote that tells about him being the most powerful at the time.
What are you basing this off of? Why did he hate Ragnos? Still, I agree that while Ragnos was alive, Sadow was less powerful, but, later on Sadow may have become more powerful. This part, however, is all guesses, so, I s'pose you can just ignore it.
See, the thing is, it shouldn't have to be an opinion. If the Ancients had some kind of awesome power, you would have to think that one would use it at some point. Now I know that the lack of proof doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't have some kind of crazy force powers, but when we see the two most powerful Sith alive after Ragnos' death battle, with clear (and quoted) intent to kill each other, there is only one force attack, and you know what it is? Sadow, hand outstretched, tosses one small brick at barely enough speed to draw blood, and not enough to incapacitate Ludo. I don't see where you're getting it from that they have this unfathomable personal power.
If you want to guess like the rest of us on a character we have no information about, and the most powerful showing of the force from his era without questionable circumstances and items to help was tossing one brick, then its fine by me. However, what I do know it that Obi Wan was directly compared to Mace Windu (by Mace himself) as far as swordsmanship goes, he was able to block 18 hits per second from Greivous, who probably has about the same physical strength as an Ancient and that he sent Greivous flying with a force push, something far above tossing a lonely brick. I put Ragnos past Ki Adi due to reputation alone, and at some point there is going to need to be some real evidence, or else it is all just assumptions.
Sadow's fight with Kressh is interpreted simply, at least I believe. Has it ever occured to you that they were equals in force abilities and for all the techniques the ancient sith created, they also created defenses for them, so you don't see sith consuming entire planets of other sith? It makes more than enough sense.
If they were force titans as you are making up (be it correct or not, there is nothing to stand behind that), then Sadow could have thrown the entire temple. But no, he threw one lousy brick. That was all the personal power he has shown us. To assume that he could have drained planets, when all he has done without items is throw one brick, is completely ridiculous.
Golden Age of the Sith:
Star Wars: The Essential Chronology writes such about the Golden Age of the Sith:
With unlimited resources and willing human slaves, the Jedi exiles forged the Sith civilization into a new empire, bringing about a golden age of evil that was separated from the Republic, in the wilds of the galaxy….Over millenia, the dark rulers of the Sith Empire lost their charts and hyperspace maps, so they no longer even knew how to find the Republic.
Before we proceed, let us check the definition of a "golden age".
From Dictionary.com :
the most flourishing period in the history of a nation, literature, etc.
Thus, the GAOTS does not mean that the Sith Empire was the strongest Sith Order that has ever been produced. It was a Golden Age because the Dark Jedi/Sith were able to conquer an entire race and establish a civilization with a power hierarchy and a strong society that was willing to delve into the mysteries of the Dark Side of the Force.
The fact it, they weren't even the most martial of Orders. In fact, probably the least warlike. They couldn't even find the Republic anymore, and instead lived peacefully on Korriban. Thus, while they studied the Dark Side, they never actively could use it in combat.
Under Marka Ragnos's Reign, from the Essential Chronology :
On the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire- cut off from the Republic by vast distances…- had grown powerful over the centuries, dabbling in its own brand of sorcery and dark Force wielding.
Let us clarify some words.
Dictionary.com, definition of dabbling:
to work at anything in an irregular or superficial manner
Definition of superficial:
insubstantial or insignificant
Thus, the Sith Empire worked on and invented many Dark Side techniques, some useful, others insignificant. We see many of these powers used, such as Naga Sadow's illusions. However, these can't be utilized in combat, since it requires deep meditation.
Naga Sadow vs. Ludo Kreesh:
The Essential Chronology says that:
At the grave site, the two strongest Sith opponents confronted each other. Naga Sadow...while his rival Ludo Kressh...
Thus, these two individuals were the strongest after Marka Ragnos. During their duel, they obviously went all out to kill their opponent. However, we don't see impressive acts of fighting from either one. All they do is bang their Sith swords and the major Force act (in fact the only one) was committed by Naga Sadow, when he dropped a brick on Kressh's head. However, the brick wasn't even thrown at a high enough velocity to crush Ludo's skull. Moreover, Kressh was able to block the killing stroke of Naga right away.
What does this mean? So while the Sith Empire invented and developed many Dark Side techniques, they never perfected the art of combat because they were the most dormant of Sith Orders.
Future generations of Sith Lords, like Exar Kun, Revan, and Bane, studied these Ancient Sith techniques, but you see them doing incredible Dark Side attacks while in combat.
So, how does this affect Ragnos? If the next two strongest Sith in the Empire fought only that good, how would this "mighty" Dark Lord have fared against the likes of extremely powerful Dark Lords like Revan or Kun? Well.....
you do understand that the Golden Age of the Sith means the apex of sith power and knowledge, since this is the sith and that is what the sith aim to achieve, don't you? Not a great rebuttal. And Jim, I never said Sadow was a force titan, I said the most powerful ancient sith in the entire era had incredible force abilities and created techniques. I can just as easily say that If Sidious was the most powerful sith, then he would have used his instakill on Yoda, on Mace, etc. That nonsensical response goes both ways.
Oh my god DS, quit avoiding the obvious. I have just proven to you the errors of your assumptions. The Sith Empire were hardly the strongest Order of Sith. Their 2nd most powerful warriors couldn't even perform outstanding combat feats on one another. Hell, all their superb "force skill" resulted in Naga throwing a brick at Ludo. And it didn't even wound Kressh properly!!!
Seriously, quit being an Ancient Sith fanboy. You are making a fool out of yourself.
Originally posted by General Kenobl
Oh my god DS, quit avoiding the obvious. I have just proven to you the errors of your assumptions. The Sith Empire were hardly the strongest Order of Sith. Their 2nd most powerful warriors couldn't even perform outstanding combat feats on one another. Hell, all their superb "force skill" resulted in Naga throwing a brick at Ludo. And it didn't even wound Kressh properly!!!Seriously, quit being an Ancient Sith fanboy. You are making a fool out of yourself. [/B]
I have read your nonsense, so I guess you're like every other moron out there that claims he's made a case for himself anytime he types. OMG WE DIDNT SEE THEM PERFORMING FEATS THEREFORE THEY CAN"T! I think it is you who should stop embarassing himself, and i'm as much of an ancient sith fan as you are anti ancient sith and Revan Fanboy.
I have read your nonsense, so I guess you're like every other moron out there that claims he's made a case for himself anytime he types. OMG WE DIDNT SEE THEM PERFORMING FEATS THEREFORE THEY CAN"T! I think it is you who should stop embarassing himself, and i'm as much of an ancient sith fan as you are anti ancient sith and Revan Fanboy.
No offense, but the what the fvck are you smoking 😮💨 ?
I know Ragnos's Sith Empire grew strong in the Dark Arts. However, they studied all the different Dark aspects of the Force. This doesn't totally mean combat, son. Par exampla, Sadow's illusions was a powerful Dark technique formulated by the Ancient Sith and Naga's mastery, however it CANT be utilized in combat. Because of the fact that the Sith Empire were the most dormant of Sith Order's, they never had the combat experience with the Force. They never specifically mastered fighting Dark Side attacks.
Thats why Naga vs. Ludo involved only Sith sword banging and brick-drop by Sadow.
You must understand DS.