Midnighter vs Daredevil

.....

The way it works is: Midnighter looks at every possible avenue. If it's within his power and resources to beat someone - he'll take that path.

You could look at it like chess. He calculates EVERY move, and EVERY possible move his opponent will make. Back and forth till there is a winner. He then makes the moves that make him the winner.

Now, lets say you want to pit Midnighter against Superman.

Using the chess analogy, Superman can now make (let's be conservative and say) twenty four moves to midnighter's one.

Or, we could say that Superman's pawns all become queens.

Or, we could go as far to say that EVERY piece of Superman's becomes a queen. Even the king - and the object of the game is STILL to get the king in checkmate. Which is now impossible to do so, since Superman's king is not on the board.

Midnighter can't possibly win. No matter how many times he calculates.

I'm not sure if my analogy is hitting home, so I'll explain it one more way:

If there IS an avenue to victory, midnighter will take it.

Another (probably fruitless, incoherent) metaphor: maps.

Say midnighter wants to get from downtown queens to ontario. Is there a way? He checks a map. He has a TON of possibilities. He could do thousands of different combinations of walking, swimming, flying, driving, or even bouncing on his friggin head to get from Queens to Ontario.

However, lets say his chosen destination is an alternate-universe Alpha Centuri(analogous to fighting superman again), and he doesn't have any sort of space travel options - much less DIMENSIONAL travel options. All he can do is walk, drive, fly, swim, sail, or bounce on his head.

He'll never calculate a way to get to this alternate alpha centuri because it's impossible to do so. There is no avenue he could POSSIBLY take to get there.

Does this make sense? At all? 😬.

Originally posted by Soljer
.....

The way it works is: Midnighter looks at every possible avenue. If it's within his power and resources to beat someone - he'll take that path.

You could look at it like chess. He calculates EVERY move, and EVERY possible move his opponent will make. Back and forth till there is a winner. He then makes the moves that make him the winner.

Now, lets say you want to pit Midnighter against Superman.

Using the chess analogy, Superman can now make (let's be conservative and say) twenty four moves to midnighter's one.

Or, we could say that Superman's pawns all become queens.

Or, we could go as far to say that EVERY piece of Superman's becomes a queen. Even the king - and the object of the game is STILL to get the king in checkmate. Which is now impossible to do so, since Superman's king is not on the board.

Midnighter can't possibly win. No matter how many times he calculates.

I'm not sure if my analogy is hitting home, so I'll explain it one more way:

If there IS an avenue to victory, midnighter will take it.

Another (probably fruitless, incoherent) metaphor: maps.

Say midnighter wants to get from downtown queens to ontario. Is there a way? He checks a map. He has a TON of possibilities. He could do thousands of different combinations of walking, swimming, flying, driving, or even bouncing on his friggin head to get from Queens to Ontario.

However, lets say his chosen destination is an alternate-universe Alpha Centuri(analogous to fighting superman again), and he doesn't have any sort of space travel options - much less DIMENSIONAL travel options. All he can do is walk, drive, fly, swim, sail, or bounce on his head.

He'll never calculate a way to get to this alternate alpha centuri because it's impossible to do so. There is no avenue he could POSSIBLY take to get there.

Does this make sense? At all? 😬.

Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

My only question is, how does he calculate victories if he DOES NOT know he can win?

Hypothetically-speaking, if DD suddenly had Sentry powers, but didn't look any different or give off any different signs, Midnighter would calculate incorrect strategies and be screwed.

Hm. Better way to put it. If MN'er just plain doesn't know what his opponent is capable of (he has no clue as to their powers/abilities), then how can he calculate a win? According to your logic, he can't unless he knows he can win. There are avenues he could take, but at the same time, he's basically lost all sense of direction. He doesn't know which way leads where. Not knowing his opponent's powers/abilities, it's analogous to dropping Midnighter in the desert with no map and no landmarks to help him, then tell him to find the way out. Of course there are millions, even billions, of different routes to take, but without any sort of hint/knowledge at all, he would have no clue as to which route to take. See what I mean?

Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

My only question is, how does he calculate victories if he DOES NOT know he can win?

Hypothetically-speaking, if DD suddenly had Sentry powers, but didn't look any different or give off any different signs, Midnighter would calculate incorrect strategies and be screwed.

Hm. Better way to put it. If MN'er just plain doesn't know what his opponent is capable of (he has no clue as to their powers/abilities), then how can he calculate a win? According to your logic, he can't unless he knows he can win. There are avenues he could take, but at the same time, he's basically lost all sense of direction. He doesn't know which way leads where. Not knowing his opponent's powers/abilities, it's analogous to dropping Midnighter in the desert with no map and no landmarks to help him, then tell him to find the way out. Of course there are millions, even billions, of different routes to take, but without any sort of hint/knowledge at all, he would have no clue as to which route to take. See what I mean?

Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

AH!!
it makes perfect sense

and thats a very good point

to use Soljers map analigy (im not as good as soljer is though 🙁)

Theoreticly, If midnighter has a treasure map and hes looking for treasure in a minefield, but thiers no glareing X on the map, how can he form a calculation? aside from a perhaps educated guess, he really has no clue where the treasure is

and in this case, the treasure is daredevils rawness, and the landmines are daredevil punching midnighter into submission

abnd theirs my crummy analigy

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
AH!!
it makes perfect sense

and thats a very good point

to use Soljers map analigy (im not as good as soljer is though 🙁)

Theoreticly, If midnighter has a treasure map and hes looking for treasure in a minefield, but thiers no glareing X on the map, how can he form a calculation? aside from a perhaps educated guess, he really has no clue where the treasure is

and in this case, the treasure is daredevils rawness, and the landmines are daredevil punching midnighter into submission

abnd theirs my crummy analigy

I liked it. 😆

Originally posted by Metalmanx

My real point here is that without any knowledge of Daredevil's superhuman powers, he's not going to be prepared for what happens. And then when Daredevil catches him completely off-guard and lands devastating blows, it could be too late for any sort of re-calculation to take place.

what sort of difference does his super powsers make thats my point. All his powers do is give hilm the equivalent of superhuman or enhanced reflexes.

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it

his radar sense does not make that much difference because it doesnt amke him as fast as Quicksilver.

Originally posted by Alfheim
what sort of difference does his super powsers make thats my point. All his powers do is give hilm the equivalent of superhuman or enhanced reflexes.

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened [B]he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it

his radar sense does not make that much difference because it doesnt amke him as fast as Quicksilver. [/B]

doh

Yes, but does Midnighter know that? ❌

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I liked it. 😆

Originally posted by Alfheim

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened [B]he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it

[/B]

And thast why im still a bit hesistant as i do not know the "average" of midnighters showings

But one thing, IMO, i would put DD on the tippy top of non superhuman martial artists and this could get me in alot of trouble but i think he could even take a small majority against cap..
largely in part to radar sense (and he is rediculously smart battle-wise)

NEVERTHELESS

there is a point where dd's radar sense cant compensate for a HUGE speed gap, my quetsion is, is midnighter in that range?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
doh

Yes, but does [B]Midnighter know that? ❌ [/B]

Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.

The same reason why Flash comics last more than 3 panels.

The same reason Silver Surfer doesn't just turn his opponents into toasters.

STORY.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.

DD isint perfect, i understand your question here, at the same time

recently DD's senses have been more elaborately explained
and it seems like their are 2 scnearios where DD is likely to be hit,

when hes unfocused by the given situation, he is more succeptable to be struck

or if hes flat out outmatched

Originally posted by Metalmanx
The same reason why Flash comics last more than 3 panels.

The same reason Silver Surfer doesn't just turn his opponents into toasters.

STORY.

So now your comparing flash to DD. DD is nowhere near the power level as the surfer dont you think its better to use somebody nearer his class.

Does DD have superhuman reflexes? No, what gives him these reflexes? His senses, therefore how can you counter his sense, you move fast enough so that even if he knows what you're doing he cant stop it.

What good would DD's sense do against Quicksilver, would DD be able to stop him. No because eventhough he has sense he wont be fast enough to stop him

No midnighter is not as fast as Quicksilver and I dont even know if hes faster than DD, but im saying this is one way to beat him.

If Kingpin can do it I cant see why MN cant, I dont see it as PIS.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
DD isint perfect, i understand your question here, at the same time

recently DD's senses have been more elaborately explained
and it seems like their are 2 scnearios where DD is likely to be hit,

when hes unfocused by the given situation, he is more succeptable to be struck

or if hes flat out outmatched

exactly!

Originally posted by Alfheim

Does DD have superhuman reflexes?

i assume you were asking (i think?)
for the record
DD is SLIGHTLY, superhuman
(the radioactivity he was exposed to gave him slight superhuman reflexes along with his sense and stuff, or becuase of his senses, soemthing like that)

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
i assume you were asking (i think?)
for the record
DD is SLIGHTLY, superhuman
(the radioactivity he was exposed to gave him slight superhuman reflexes along with his sense and stuff, or becuase of his senses, soemthing like that)

I dont think so bro, his bio says that he does not have superhuman reflexes. When you read the comics he always talks about his sense being able to detect things, so what im saying is he is fast, but combined with his senses this gives him superhuman reflexes.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think so bro, his bio says that he does not have superhuman reflexes. When you read the comics he always talks about his sense being able to detect things, so what im saying is he is fast, but combined with his senses this gives him superhuman reflexes.

Im not saying you didnt see what you saw, but in his comic it has been said that it gave him minor superhuman (very minor) reflexes due to the nature of his senses, but i have quesitoned that before and i may be recalling that issue incorrectly

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Im not saying you didnt see what you saw, but in his comic it has been said that it gave him minor superhuman (very minor) reflexes due to the nature of his senses, but i have quesitoned that before and i may be recalling that issue incorrectly

I dunno what to say sometimes you have conflicting showings. Well at any rate this is my point. In order to beat DD you need to be able to move so fast that he can react against it.

IF you can do that then you can beat him. Give a slug radar sense and shot at it and all it knows is its going to die. DD is not a slug but you get my point.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dunno what to say sometimes you have conflicting showings. Well at any rate this is my point. [B]In order to beat DD you need to be able to move so fast that he can react against it.

IF you can do that then you can beat him. Give a slug radar sense and shot at it and all it knows is its going to die. DD is not a slug but you get my point. [/B]

yes i do

i was confused for a sec becuase you put can instead of cant
but yes
i agree

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
yes i do

i was confused for a sec becuase you put can instead of cant
but yes
i agree

cool.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

DD's powers are effectively physical. He can't phase. He can't teleport. He can't use TK.

And they're not to the extent that they're not counterable. He isn't the Flash. He isn't Superman.

And they're inferior to Midnighter in some categories.

Furthermore Daredevil's altered senses would be detectable to MN as altered neural activity anyway.
http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg

Ergo Midnighter wins.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
IMHO, no you don't fully get it. Because you keep asking this: He doesn't need to know that DD has a radar sense. Any move DD makes, Midnighter can run a million scenarios to find a counter - and as DD's moves can be countered, then he will find a counter.

DD's powers are effectively physical. He can't phase. He can't teleport. He can't use TK.

And they're not to the extent that they're not counterable. He isn't the Flash. He isn't Superman.

And they're inferior to Midnighter in some categories.

Furthermore Daredevil's altered senses would be detectable to MN as altered neural activity anyway.
http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg

Ergo Midnighter wins.

While i dont completely disagree with your assessment

on the other hand

Daredevil is very good at figureing things out durring a fight, well two things now actually

Shuold midnighter try to counter one of daredevils moves, its entirely possible that daredevil can react accordingly becuase he can feel midnighters muscle contractions, it gets a bit messy here though, becuse in some ways, they both have similar abilities here

another thing, shuold daredevil begin to catch on to midnighter and becomes more reactive, it could pose alot of problems for midnighter as he would have trouble re-adapting to having a similar ability used against him (once again, daredevils ability to counter moves due to extra sensory preception)

its almost as if becuase of DD's esp, midnighter would have to be constantly recalculateing becuase of the combat "flexability" that dd's esp gives him

IMO, its hard to say, but if midnighters physical stats arent far enough above daredevils, i think it goes to DD

but as of right now i just dont know