Dooku is 90% of Yoda based on what? That would make Dooku 90% of Sidious also (since they're equal), which would actually make him stronger than Vader. (Which I believe we argued otherwise in the first thread on this forum to go 1000 posts).
Again, if Dooku grows so much in power that he is actually superior to Mace whereas he normally isn't, and has an extra plan to stall Yoda, and yet still fails, I wouldn't put Dooku at 90% of Yoda.
Count Makashi, I believe that some of your assertions stem more from bias than truth. I don't see any particular reason to deduce that Yoda was "going full out" on Dooku in either instance [their duel on Geonosis or their duel on Vjun].
On Geonosis, Dooku initiates the attack on Yoda by using the Force to throw debris and rocks at Yoda - and in both cases, the attacks are deflected and brushed harmly aside. Yoda did not make any attempt to attack Dooku at that point. The second salvo consisted of the Force lightning, and the first time, Yoda simply caught the lightning in his hand and crushed it. Only in the final situation did Yoda make any attempt to harm Count Dooku, and it was with his own lightning. So, then, they switch to lightsabers, and it's not an epic fight. Yoda very much shows that he could control the duel in its entirety. As it ended in a saber lock, Yoda seemed very much amused with his "fought well you have, my young padawan" as if he had no intention of killing Dooku at all.
Then of course we have the obvious opportunities - he could have very easily killed Dooku as Dooku used his power to bring down the column. The second instance is, of course, he could have let Anakin and Kenobi die if he was absolutely concerned with killing Count Dooku himself. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu muses that he could have easily killed Dooku when he had the chance, but his former friendship and respect for the Count clouded his judgment.
The second instance on Vjun, we know that Yoda all along wanted to bring Dooku back to the fold. That message was made very, very clear in that book. Dooku was Yoda's prized pupil and his protege; which explains his lack of zeal when it came to fighting Dooku on Geonosis. Even then, on Vjun - a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force - Dooku was completely unable to kill Yoda. A Yoda who didn't want to kill him, and a Yoda who was half distracted. The same opportunity came on Vjun: Dooku was forced to flee and used the missile to serve as the distraction. However, if Yoda really wanted to kill him, he would have done so.
In both examples, I see no reason why Yoda was going "full out". The only time we see him do so is against Sidious. As for your "Dooku is 90% of Yoda", we know that is incorrect, as it is a speculatory statistic and nothing more.
There is nothing to suggest that the power gap is that small.
Wasn't Force duel on Geonosis a stalemate?
Even if Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku on Vjun, he tried his best, Dooku also didn't try to kill Anakin, due to Sidious orders, but that doesn't mean he didn't try his best. On Geonosis i believe he went all out, he said before IF Dooku escapes rally more systems to his cause he will, he went in the hangar to stop Dooku, but if he had to kill him, he wouldn't hesitate, he is a Jedi, duty comes first. And Dooku could easily kill Yoda, when he is trying to stop the pillar from faling. And like you said, he used Dookus lightning to return it to Dooku, isn't that trying to harm him, he went to stop him, any means necessary, but yes he preferred to take him alive. And who was more out of breath, when the fight ended, Yoda was more tired then Dooku, breathing heavily and he didn't sound to be amusing to me.
And Mace only had a chance to kill him, when he came from behind, when he had a element of surprise, not in a actual fight.
And if power gap would be huge, Yoda would easily defeat Dooku.
And for vader argument for Kamikz, do you see Vader doing as good as Dooku against Yoda, i don't.
Wasn't Force duel on Geonosis a stalemate?
Did you not read my post, at all? Did I deny the validity of the "stalemate" on Geonosis, Count Makashi? No. I simply offered - and supported - the simple fact that there is nothing to indicate that Yoda went all out on Count Dooku. He only made an attempt to deal physical harm once throughout the initial salvos. That doesn't strike me as someone "going all out". If anything, it proved the point that Yoda wasn't to be taken lightly. Which is probably why Dooku abandoned the futility of the Force assaults and headed for the lightsaber.
Even if Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku on Vjun, he tried his best, Dooku also didn't try to kill Anakin, due to Sidious orders, but that doesn't mean he didn't try his best.
I translate "to try one's best" in a duel is to try to kill the opponent. George Lucas confirms that the duel between Anakin and Dooku was a secret test, orchestrated by Sidious, as to see which one of the two was stronger. The result? Anakin walking out alive and Count Dooku lying headless on the floor. If Dooku didn't go "full out" it was due to his own hubris, which is a glaring weakness that he was foolish to not protect.
So, no, I don't see Yoda "trying his best", there.
On Geonosis i believe he went all out, he said before IF Dooku escapes rally more systems to his cause he will, he went in the hangar to stop Dooku, but if he had to kill him, he wouldn't hesitate, he is a Jedi, duty comes first.
No, Yoda did not say that he would "kill Dooku" rather than let him escape. If memory doesn't fail me, I believe he said that Dooku "must be captured". To capture someone is to take them prisoner, not kill them.
And Dooku could easily kill Yoda, when he is trying to stop the pillar from faling. And like you said, he used Dookus lightning to return it to Dooku, isn't that trying to harm him, he went to stop him, any means necessary, but yes he preferred to take him alive. And who was more out of breath, when the fight ended, Yoda was more tired then Dooku, breathing heavily and he didn't sound to be amusing to me.
This is the poorest argument you've made. Are you attempting to imply that Dooku could have killed Yoda? I'd advise you to check your facts again. The Republic was crushing the CIS resistance on Geonosis, Mace was actually outside battling three dark Jedi - the battle in itself was a complete defeat for Dooku. He left because he wanted to live.
As for Yoda getting tired, it's Yoda. 900 years old, and his only means of battle is to draw heavily upon the Force to enhance his body. I have no doubt that it would leave him fatigued. Is there something you're trying to prove?
And Mace only had a chance to kill him, when he came from behind, when he had a element of surprise, not in a actual fight.
Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad (the deadliest lightsaber form). Two advantages Dooku doesn't have. And the fac that it wasn't in an actual fight is irrelevent. Mace was in the position to kill Dooku effortlessly and yet he didn't because he still cared for him.
And if power gap would be huge, Yoda would easily defeat Dooku.
Yes, I am of the mind that - where he going full out - Yoda would dominate and defeat Dooku without having a heart attack in the process. Hell, Dooku was terrified of Sidious, Yoda's equal. What does that tell you?
But if Yoda was that much better and wanted to take him alive, he could easily disarm him, like Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan in AOTC. Yoda needed to stop Dooku, at that time the Jedi thought by stooping Dooku, the war would end, the Separatist would fall, Kenobi said something like this IF we catch him we can end this war, why wouldn't Yoda go full out on Dooku, he needed to stop him, to save millions of Innocent lives, if the war started.
He cared about Dooku, but that wouldn't stop him to do his duty, Kenobi loved Anakin the most and loke what he did to him, Yoda if no other choice would do the same, personal feelings cant get in the way.
And Dooku was told by Sidious not to kill Anakin, but he fought(Dooku) to the best of his abilities, he went full out and was still defeated. Yoda had to fought to the best of his abilities , to parry Dookus strikes, he even said Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark side i sense in you.
When did he say Dooku must be captured and like you said Mace said he had an opportunity to kill him, but couldn't, probably because he didn't know how evil Dooku has become and Jedi just cant go kill people in cold blood from behind, not even a warning, but he didn't, that doesn't sound like capture to me.
I said Dooku had a chance to kill Yoda, when he was using the Force to prevent the pillar falling on Obi and Anakin, he could stab him from behind, when Yoda was so concatenated.
Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad, so called the deadliest style, but so did Sora Bulq and Dooku toyed with him and Tholme together. And Dooku defeated Mace before, when he had Shatterpoint, but yea he didn't event Vaapad. And Makashi is best lightsaber to lightsaber style, Vaapad is the best overall.
Dooku was terrified of Sidious, but he didn't know how powerful he rely was, he overpowered him, like Yoda in ROTS novel, but Sidious would defeat Dooku easier then Yoda, because of offensive Force powers. Yoda barely caught Sidious lightning, Dooku would be overwhelmed.
And i am not denying, that Yoda would win, just not that easy, it would be a hard fight.
Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him...
But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see
reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window.
Why would he say that, if it wasn't true, if Yoda easily defeated him he would say something like this- Them it, even with the Dark side, he easily defeated me, i still wasn't a match for him, i am a failure.
Then he would be angry, that he still couldn't contest with Yoda.
For the record, Yoda would win.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
But if Yoda was that much better and wanted to take him alive, he could easily disarm him, like Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan in AOTC. Yoda needed to stop Dooku, at that time the Jedi thought by stooping Dooku, the war would end, the Separatist would fall, Kenobi said something like this IF we catch him we can end this war, why wouldn't Yoda go full out on Dooku, he needed to stop him, to save millions of Innocent lives, if the war started.
He cared about Dooku, but that wouldn't stop him to do his duty, Kenobi loved Anakin the most and loke what he did to him, Yoda if no other choice would do the same, personal feelings cant get in the way.And Dooku was told by Sidious not to kill Anakin, but he fought(Dooku) to the best of his abilities, he went full out and was still defeated. Yoda had to fought to the best of his abilities , to parry Dookus strikes, he even said Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark side i sense in you.
When did he say Dooku must be captured and like you said Mace said he had an opportunity to kill him, but couldn't, probably because he didn't know how evil Dooku has become and Jedi just cant go kill people in cold blood from behind, not even a warning, but he didn't, that doesn't sound like capture to me.
I said Dooku had a chance to kill Yoda, when he was using the Force to prevent the pillar falling on Obi and Anakin, he could stab him from behind, when Yoda was so concatenated.
Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad, so called the deadliest style, but so did Sora Bulq and Dooku toyed with him and Tholme together. And Dooku defeated Mace before, when he had Shatterpoint, but yea he didn't event Vaapad. And Makashi is best lightsaber to lightsaber style, Vaapad is the best overall.
Dooku was terrified of Sidious, but he didn't know how powerful he rely was, he overpowered him, like Yoda in ROTS novel, but Sidious would defeat Dooku easier then Yoda, because of offensive Force powers. Yoda barely caught Sidious lightning, Dooku would be overwhelmed.
And i am not denying, that Yoda would win, just not that easy, it would be a hard fight.
Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him...But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see
reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window.Why would he say that, if it wasn't true, if Yoda easily defeated him he would say something like this- Them it, even with the Dark side, he easily defeated me, i still wasn't a match for him, i am a failure.
Then he would be angry, that he still couldn't contest with Yoda.For the record, Yoda would win.
He couldn't have taken him down "that" easily, beacuse Dooku, though still less powerful by a ok large amount, was still powerful, AND he always had escape plans. For crying out loud, they fought for 30 seconds then he ran, Yoda cannot disarm someone that easily, besides, he really isn't all high on killing.
And personal feelings not getting in the way? Didn't Yoda choose to save his two friends instead of ending a whole WAR?
He said Dooku was powerful, but he is not as powerful as Yoda at all, he is NOT "nearly as powerful as Yoda."
Yeah, uh, Sora faked that fight, he says so in "Jedi, Mace Windu". He is in leagues with Dooku remember? That fight was a decoy...
Why wouldn't Dooku know how powerful Sidious is? He is his master and taught him his dark side techniques...
What do you need to hear? Dooku had a ****ing planet powering him up and even keeping Yoda buisy in the force, and still couldn't win. With the dark side boost it turned him from lesser than Mace Windu to any jedi's superior except for Yoda, and YET Yoda still won. Dooku won't stand a chance of winning on equal ground, it will be a fight, but not a really, really close one...
And yeah, I could see Vader standing up against Yoda better than Dooku. We have already debated Vader > Dooku, if you think otherwise then bring up the old thread or make a new one.
But if Yoda was that much better and wanted to take him alive, he could easily disarm him, like Dooku disarmed Obi-Wan in AOTC. Yoda needed to stop Dooku, at that time the Jedi thought by stooping Dooku, the war would end, the Separatist would fall, Kenobi said something like this IF we catch him we can end this war, why wouldn't Yoda go full out on Dooku, he needed to stop him, to save millions of Innocent lives, if the war started.
No.
This is irrelevent. I've provided evidence to prove that Yoda still cared for Count Dooku and that - the entire time - his goal was never to kill him, but to bring him in alive. Those are two things that would prevent Yoda from "going full out" and attempting to kill Dooku.
As for Obi-Wan, he didn't know Dooku well enough, nor did he care for him, which is why he was willing to attack Count Dooku with the intent of killing him. What he declared doesn't speak for Yoda.
He cared about Dooku, but that wouldn't stop him to do his duty, Kenobi loved Anakin the most and loke what he did to him, Yoda if no other choice would do the same, personal feelings cant get in the way.
Poorly constructed. If Yoda really cared about defeating Count Dooku and the Separatist movement, he would have left Anakin and Obi-Wan to die, as is the Jedi way. And yet he didn't, and chose to allow Dooku to escape. Mace did the very same thing, and the reason was made absolutely clear: he still cared for his old friend.
And Dooku was told by Sidious not to kill Anakin, but he fought(Dooku) to the best of his abilities, he went full out and was still defeated. Yoda had to fought to the best of his abilities , to parry Dookus strikes, he even said Powerful you have become Dooku, the Dark side i sense in you.
This is another addition to the poor argument. Lucas [the highest Star Wars authority] said that the fight was a secret test, orchestrated by Sidious to see which of the two would end up being his apprentice. Since it is made clear he simply wants the "stronger" apprentice, it would be very foolish of Sidious to place restraints on Dooku of any variety. He didn't. And Dooku died.
As far as Yoda's quote is concerned, that is not an admission that he was fighting him to the best of his ability. It simply means that Dooku has become very powerful since the last time they had crossed paths.
When did he say Dooku must be captured and like you said Mace said he had an opportunity to kill him, but couldn't, probably because he didn't know how evil Dooku has become and Jedi just cant go kill people in cold blood from behind, not even a warning, but he didn't, that doesn't sound like capture to me.
Yoda told Mace during the skirmish on Geonosis that Dooku must be captured before he can "rally more systems to his cause". This was after Mace's botched attempt to make Dooku stand down, meaning that when Yoda arrived - he decided to capture instead of kill. There is no indication that Mace, prior to that, was bound by similar orders.
I said Dooku had a chance to kill Yoda, when he was using the Force to prevent the pillar falling on Obi and Anakin, he could stab him from behind, when Yoda was so concatenated.
Yeah, and I said Dooku wisely didn't. The Republic forces were already close to the hangar; the Confederacy was getting crushed; Mace was outside, and he was probably very happy to walk away with his head attached to his shoulders. Had Dooku stayed, he would have been uberannihilated.
Mace has shatterpoint and Vaapad, so called the deadliest style, but so did Sora Bulq and Dooku toyed with him and Tholme together. And Dooku defeated Mace before, when he had Shatterpoint, but yea he didn't event Vaapad. And Makashi is best lightsaber to lightsaber style, Vaapad is the best overall.
Sora Bulq =/= Mace Windu. "Vaapad mastered him" was the statement Mace gave regarding Bulq, implying that he didn't master the form. Mace is the highest master of it and the inventor. And curiously, when Dooku was confronted by Mace on Boz Pity, he fled. Curious.
Dooku was terrified of Sidious, but he didn't know how powerful he rely was, he overpowered him, like Yoda in ROTS novel, but Sidious would defeat Dooku easier then Yoda, because of offensive Force powers. Yoda barely caught Sidious lightning, Dooku would be overwhelmed.
An unsupported assertion. "Not that he [Dooku] would question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his [Sidious] command", from Dark Rendezvous. Dooku was trained by Sidious in the dark arts, there's nothing to support that Dooku "didn't know how powerful he really was".
Quit with this BS reasoning.
And i am not denying, that Yoda would win, just not that easy, it would be a hard fight.
Right. Yoda wouldn't trample all over Dooku, but he would dominate him without exhausting himself.
Vividly his mind went back to their last meeting, on Geonosis: swords drawn at last, and finally equal.
What a bittersweet moment-to see Yoda again, and be a match, or more than a match for him...But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see
reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window.Why would he say that, if it wasn't true, if Yoda easily defeated him he would say something like this- Them it, even with the Dark side, he easily defeated me, i still wasn't a match for him, i am a failure.
Then he would be angry, that he still couldn't contest with Yoda.
You're citing Dooku's own thoughts as a testimony to his power? Lmao. I suppose we should believe Anakin's furious, arrogant rants about how he is all powerful, then. This is poor reasoning and this is irrelevent. Dooku's own deluded mind makes him out to be Yoda's equal, because he is arrogant.
If you're going to argue this point, do it better.
For the record, Yoda would win.
Yup, he would. No chance of Dooku winning.
Count, read this, and you tell me that you honestly think Yoda couldn't waste Dooku if he really wanted to.
Dooku's eyes widened and he stepped back, turning to face Yoda directly. He brought his lightsaber up to his face, shut down the blade, then snapped it to the side in formal salute. "You have interfered with our plans for the last time."
A wave of Dooku's free hand sent a piece of machinery flying at the diminutive Jedi Master, seeming as if it would surely crush him.
But Yoda was ready, waving his own hand, Force-pushing the flying machinery harmlessly aside.
Dooku clutched up at the ceiling, breaking free great blocks that tumbled down at Yoda.
But small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides, bouncing across the floor all about the untouched Master Yoda.
Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.
Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered. "Even you, my old Master!"
More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."
Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to life.
Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.
But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.
Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.
Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.
A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.
The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.
Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.
"Anakin!" Obi-Wan cried. He grabbed at the plummeting crane with the Force, and Anakin, startled awake, did so, as well. Even working together, they hadn't the strength left to stop its crushing descent.
But Yoda did.
Yoda grabbed the crane and held it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away.
He would have won(Yoda), but not easily, Dooku is a match for him, but yes if he stayed longer in the hangar he would have lose.
And the last part contradicts the movies, Obi and Anakin never used the Force, to stop the crane, from falling.
Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
If he was so much better, it would say he caught it effortlessly.
And if Yoda is so much better, then it takes the achievement away from him, Lucas probably wanted, to aper that Yoda defeated powerful opponent.
Yoda being slightly more powerful than a strong opponent is more impressive than him being significantly more powerful than a strong opponent?
I don't see your reasoning...
It is clear that Yoda has a significant advantage, due to Dooku becoming frustrated and comments like "Much to learn you still have."
The only thing Dooku has for him is: "Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily. " But that is followed afterwords by "but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture," and "Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault."
It is also clear that Yoda can run circles around Dooku in saber combat, even when we know that Dooku knows Yoda's lightsaber form like the back of his hand.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
It is also clear that Yoda can run circles around Dooku in saber combat, even when we know that Dooku knows Yoda's lightsaber form like the back of his hand.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Because of his overwhelming speed.
Please. Count Dooku has held much disdain for any lightsaber form that isn't his. In the novelization, he refers to Ataru "with its ridiculous acrobatics" and called Anakin (who used it temporarily) "a spastic hawk-bat".
And yet Yoda was able to completely dominate their fight. Yoda > Dooku (and Dooku has a supposedly "superior" form).