Poll
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RotS Mace Windu VS RotS Count Dooku
Alright, the first setting here is the Chancellor's office, where Palpy did the tango with Mace and was kicked on his ass.
Second setting is the throne room of the Invisible Hand where Anakin went "all out" and managed to just barely overcome Dooku.
In both of these arena's Lightsabers and Force powers are used.
Who do you think would win?
It shouldn't matter where they fight.
Mace lost to Dooku prior to TPM. This was when Mace was barely betetr than Qui-Gon so this in no way makes Dooku above Mace.
Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.
Dark Rendezvous says that Mace and Dooku are perhaps even.
In Obsession he and Mace fight. Dooku chooses to flee, so he at least didn't believe that he could beat Mace and, seeing as how cocky Dooku is, if he doesn't believe he can ebat Mace then Mace must really be stronger. Or else Mace was winning so Dooku fled, so that puts Mace above Dooku.
Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel. Palaptine > Dooku.
Finally, Lucas says that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." no mention of Dooku.
So Mace > Dooku (it is close, though).
Originally posted by darthsith19
It shouldn't matter where they fight.Mace lost to Dooku prior to TPM. This was when Mace was barely betetr than Qui-Gon so this in no way makes Dooku above Mace.
Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.
Dark Rendezvous says that Mace and Dooku are perhaps even.
In Obsession he and Mace fight. Dooku chooses to flee, so he at least didn't believe that he could beat Mace and, seeing as how cocky Dooku is, if he doesn't believe he can ebat Mace then Mace must really be stronger. Or else Mace was winning so Dooku fled, so that puts Mace above Dooku.
Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel. Palaptine > Dooku.
Finally, Lucas says that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." no mention of Dooku.
So Mace > Dooku (it is close, though).
Just a couple of things before I leave this thread to ts own devices...
Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace's databank says that he's on par with Yoda. Yoda is stronger than Dooku.
Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.
Dark Rendezvous says that Mace and Dooku are perhaps even.
The quote is "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground...". This is saying that the only other Jedi to have a chance at beating Dooku would beat Mace.
In Obsession he and Mace fight. Dooku chooses to flee, so he at least didn't believe that he could beat Mace and, seeing as how cocky Dooku is, if he doesn't believe he can ebat Mace then Mace must really be stronger. Or else Mace was winning so Dooku fled, so that puts Mace above Dooku.
No, it doesnt. Because Dooku ran away didnt mean he was losing, or that he was going to lose. It meant that there was a chance that Mace could win (Which I dont think any of the people on these forums will argue). A chance Dooku didnt want to take. Dooku valued his own life more than Mace's therefore didnt want to risk it. Mace on the otherhand knew that if he was to beat Dooku then it would be a considerable blow to the CIS. Another words, even though there was every chance he could have won, there was also a possibility (however small) that Mace could also have won.
Mace beat Palpatine in a saber duel. Palaptine > Dooku.
Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.
Finally, Lucas says that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." no mention of Dooku.
Firstly when was this quote stated? If it was in the commentary after Dooku died then it can be disregarded. Secondly, I dont see why Dooku would want to compete with the Emperor. Yes he is treacherous sith, but Palpatine was not his enemy - unlike Yoda and Mace who can clearly be identified as Sids enemies
I shall leave this thread now because I know that these boards are filled with Mace loving, Dooku hating fanboys.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I shall leave this thread now because I know that these boards are filled with Mace loving, Dooku hating fanboys.
PS: BTW, you are right. Fanboy>anything, such as Plo Koon...><
Sometimes it is better to leave when fanboys are there...
Originally posted by Blaxican
woah woah waoh, Mr. Ox. Were did all the hostility come from?
Well I failed my hunk of sh*t Accounting assignment today and im in a bad mood. And I cant stand it when people say that Mace will beat the Count. I hate SLJ - he will never compare to Mr Lee.
I guess you could say im on the edge. 🥷
SLJ>>CManLee.
Count Dooku>>>>>Mace Windu.
Realistically, Dooku destroys Mace, and I'm a Mace Windu fan (that's not a lie, ask anyone, I even used to be known as The Mace Windu fanboy, so you know it's not bias on my part, just ask Gideon).
He has mastered a form designed for dueling, when dueling techniques were mostly obsolete during the PT times.
He has way more experience with the saber.
He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.
He's pretty damn strong, as can be seen in his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan, when he blocks two overhead swings form both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, while only holding onto his saber with one hand.
Dooku's also extremely adept at pulling off quick force attacks while dueling, it's something he almost always does throughout the different duels he's been in. You see, he only duels with one hand, leaving a hand ready to pull off a quick force attack. His tactics seem to be working away at his opponent with his saber and keeping his opponent busy through those means, and then pulling off an attack with the force, for which they can't apply a defence to as they are far too busy with his saber. He does it in his duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin (in both AotC and RotS), in his duel with Tholme and Sora Bulq, and in countless others.
Mace Windu just doesn't compare. He could barely handle Sidious' whack as fvck stupid stab movements, his strikes were completely lacking in fluidity, he was slow and his foot and body movements just appeared unnatural. Mace could hardly even trouble Dooku when they fought during the Clone Wars, and Dooku was basically toying with him. I say Dooku takes this, any and every time.
Originally posted by allfg
SLJ>>CManLee.
Count Dooku>>>>>Mace Windu.Realistically, Dooku destroys Mace, and I'm a Mace Windu fan (that's not a lie, ask anyone, I even used to be known as The Mace Windu fanboy, so you know it's not bias on my part, just ask Gideon).
He has mastered a form designed for dueling, when dueling techniques were mostly obsolete during the PT times.
He has way more experience with the saber.
He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.
He's pretty damn strong, as can be seen in his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan, when he blocks two overhead swings form both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, while only holding onto his saber with one hand.
Dooku's also extremely adept at pulling off quick force attacks while dueling, it's something he almost always does throughout the different duels he's been in. You see, he only duels with one hand, leaving a hand ready to pull off a quick force attack. His tactics seem to be working away at his opponent with his saber and keeping his opponent busy through those means, and then pulling off an attack with the force, for which they can't apply a defence to as they are far too busy with his saber. He does it in his duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin (in both AotC and RotS), in his duel with Tholme and Sora Bulq, and in countless others.
Mace Windu just doesn't compare. He could barely handle Sidious' whack as fvck stupid stab movements, his strikes were completely lacking in fluidity, he was slow and his foot and body movements just appeared unnatural. Mace could hardly even trouble Dooku when they fought during the Clone Wars, and Dooku was basically toying with him. I say Dooku takes this, any and every time. [/B]
Good god you're embarassing. Just stop posting.
Yet another piss poor argument by a piss poor debater. I shouldn't even need to post any proof other than Dooku himself thinks Mace is good enough to beat him. Furthermore, he defeated Sidious, and Sidious>Dooku, so I guess you lose again.
So many flaws for an already flawed form of argument.
1. ABC arguments are lame.
2. Dooku doesn't think that Mace can beat him, that's a lie.
3. Sidious likely held back against Mace.
4. Mace beat Sidious in a saber battle, not a force fight. Where's the proof that Sidious is greater with a blade than Dooku?
Irrelevant
LOL! So posting that Dooku utilises a form designed for dueling when discussing who would win in a battle that would always end up as a duel is irrelevant. Ok!
That logic dies when we see a 900 year old Yoda stalemate Sidious.
We're talking in terms of sabers here, dipshit. We don't know how the duel between Yoda and Sidious ended, all we know is that from what we did see, Sidious was struggling.
Irrelevant, watch the CW cartoons, read shatterpoint.
1. Do you actually know what the fricking meaning of irrelevant is? You're such a moron.
2. It's your job to provide proof for your claims, not mine to read sources and find the proof myself.
3. From what I remember, any seemingly strength related feat was achieved through shatterpoint, which is a testament to his shatterpoint ability and not his physical strength.
More irrelevant crap.
You do know that I could just be a moron too and post 'irrelevant' after everything you say like you're doing right now, right?
Good god you're embarassing. Just stop posting
Hold up, don't you usually say 'you're embarrassing yourself'. Now it's just 'you're embarassing'? Wow, good job big guy, you're coming up with new material, I love that.
BTW, did Lucas only mean that what "Jedi" can compete with Emperor? (Coz Dooku is on Emperor's side) (I don't know though, so I am just asking)
Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.
The quote is "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground...". This is saying that the only other Jedi to have a chance at beating Dooku would beat Mace.
No, it doesnt. Because Dooku ran away didnt mean he was losing, or that he was going to lose. It meant that there was a chance that Mace could win (Which I dont think any of the people on these forums will argue). A chance Dooku didnt want to take. Dooku valued his own life more than Mace's therefore didnt want to risk it. Mace on the otherhand knew that if he was to beat Dooku then it would be a considerable blow to the CIS. Another words, even though there was every chance he could have won, there was also a possibility (however small) that Mace could also have won.
Which means a total of nothing. Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, who just happened to beat Anakin - but heck, Anakin bet Dooku! This makes no sense and neither does your A>B>C argument.
Firstly when was this quote stated? If it was in the commentary after Dooku died then it can be disregarded.
Secondly, I dont see why Dooku would want to compete with the Emperor. Yes he is treacherous sith, but Palpatine was not his enemy - unlike Yoda and Mace who can clearly be identified as Sids enemies
Now for Allfq:
He has mastered a form designed for dueling, when dueling techniques were mostly obsolete during the PT times.
He has way more experience with the saber.
He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.
He's pretty damn strong, as can be seen in his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan, when he blocks two overhead swings form both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, while only holding onto his saber with one hand.
Dooku's also extremely adept at pulling off quick force attacks while dueling, it's something he almost always does throughout the different duels he's been in. You see, he only duels with one hand, leaving a hand ready to pull off a quick force attack. His tactics seem to be working away at his opponent with his saber and keeping his opponent busy through those means, and then pulling off an attack with the force, for which they can't apply a defence to as they are far too busy with his saber. He does it in his duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin (in both AotC and RotS), in his duel with Tholme and Sora Bulq, and in countless others.
He could barely handle Sidious' whack as fvck stupid stab movements, his strikes were completely lacking in fluidity, he was slow and his foot and body movements just appeared unnatural.
Mace could hardly even trouble Dooku when they fought during the Clone Wars, and Dooku was basically toying with him. I say Dooku takes this, any and every time.
1. ABC arguments are lame.
3. Sidious likely held back against Mace.
4. Mace beat Sidious in a saber battle, not a force fight. Where's the proof that Sidious is greater with a blade than Dooku?
And Darth Sexy, you know you could actually debate and not just post "irrelevant" a hundred times.
I seriously doubt Agen Kolar >>> AOTC Anakin. Maybe >, but >>> is really overdoing it. AOTC Anakin was enough to actually challenge Dooku for a while, something I doubt Agen could do well at all....
And DS, from what we know, Sidious is alot faster than Dooku. Anakin (who kicked Dooku's ass), couldn't see anything but blurs watching either Mace or Sidious fight.... (By this I do not mean that they would pwn either Dooku or Anakin, but talking for their speed only)
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet another piss poor argument by a piss poor debater. I shouldn't even need to post any proof other than Dooku himself thinks Mace is good enough to beat him. Furthermore, he defeated Sidious, and Sidious>Dooku, so I guess you lose again.Irrelevant
That logic dies when we see a 900 year old Yoda stalemate Sidious.
He's quicker and more agile, as can be seen in his duels in the movies, and his ability to keep up with lightsaber users such as Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Irrelevant, watch the CW cartoons, read shatterpoint.
More irrelevant crap.
Good god you're embarassing. Just stop posting.
NO KIDDING.
I completely agree with Darth Sexy on this one, plus on the line where it says that Dooku was trained in a style designed for dueling...
MACE WAS TOO!
Read it up, Juyo is not only the truly consummate style for lightsaber dueling but it the only other Form truly made for dueling besides Makashi.
That, and add to the fact that Mace uses and has mastered the Form of Vapaad, a Form that utilizes Shatterpoints and re-directs Dark side energy back in to the opponent or fuels the Vapaad practioner.
Realistically, Mace could whittle Dooku down to nothing in half the time it took him to beat Sidious.
Darth Sexy was right, It sounds like you need to read up and do your research, allfg.
Also, for any further arguments, I have at my disposal the Ultimate Mace Windu Feats List.
Located here, enjoy. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEfyjOsXVP0
(It's a musical) 😏
Yeah, and Mace created a form, which is more impressive than merely mastering a form.
You miss the point; Makashi is designed for dueling. Most dueling techniques had become obsolete by the PT times, so it's likely that when Mace created the form, he didn't include too many dueling elements. And Mace didn't technically create the form, he just expanded on Juyo, like Kas'im did to all the forms.
Speculation. just because he has been around for longer doesn't mean that he has more experience.
What the..?
If you're trying to argue that Mace has more experience than a former lightsaber instructor that has been using a saber for
In Shatterpoint Mace moves his hands faster than the eye can see.
DS, you know my stance on things that contradict what we see in the movie.
There's no proof that Dooku can move that fast and no proof that Mace was using his full speed in the duel with Sidious.
Why wouldn't Mace use his full speed against Sidious?
Plus Mace is younger and won't tire as quickly.
Dooku was able to completely revitalise himself with the force in the RotS novelisation. With the force, age means little.
Dooku tired from a minute and a half of fighting Kenobi and Skywalker.
Proof?
Mace wouldn't tire than quickly.
Despite using on of the most energy consuming forms, when Dooku uses the least?
Kenobi was using offense, which he isn't very good at, and Anakin wasn't able to go all out because Kenobi was in the way.
You're missing the point. Dooku's gotta require some pretty damn good strength to block two overhead attacks at the same time, one of them being from someone as strong as Anakin Skywalker.
Mace put Siidous on his ass, this is more impressive than anything that Dooku did.
I'll address this l8r.
Nothing that Dooku does with his hand will stop Mace. Lightning can be blocked, so cal telekinesis.
Read through my post again. Dooku can simultaneously use both the force and his saber. How is Mace going to defend against the force while defending against a saber strike?
Plus, while Dooku is using the Force Mace will stab him with his saber. Plus he didn't use the Force with Yoda, why wasn't he using the Force against Anakin either of the times that he fought him? No, he won't be able to use the Force while dueling Mace.
I'm not saying he'll be able to use it all the time against anybody, just that he's adept at it. And he actually did do the very thing I'm talking about in RotS. Oh, and Mace is no Yoda.
Sidious is a better saber wielder than Dooku is
Begs for proof.
and just because he wans't as fast in that fight doesn't mean anything. Since when did speed make you the best?
Since liek 4eva! Just kidding obviously, I never said speed makes you the best, but it is a factor, and probably the biggest one when it comes to saber dueling.
And actually Mace did handle Sidious.
Key word = 'barely.'
Not being able to prevent three of your allies getting killed, and being dominated for almost the entire duel = barely handling.
Wow, what a bunch of unsupported bullshit. there is absolutely NO proof that Dooku was toying with Mace in that duel.
When I can get to the comic, I'll go into more detail. However, from what I remember, Mace was desperately trying to kill Dooku and was trying his hardest, and Dooku was taunting him the entire time. There's also the fact that he was able to force push him off a cliff at the end of the duel. Though I'll admit my choice of word wasn't great.
True, but not as lame as your bullshit posts.
Excuse me? Wow, I really didn't expect this from you DS, completely uncalled for.
Wrong. GL says that mace overpowered Sidious.
*Does not refute what I was saying*
Fought Yoda better with a saber,
How so? From what I saw, he struggled against Yoda the entire time. Dooku at least was able to hold his own against Yoda.
Gillard says that Sidious is a level 9 swordsman and Dooku's a level 8
Gillard's not a canon source.
Sidious kileld 3 strong Jedi Masters in 7 seconds, that's better than anything that Dooku's ever done with a blade.
The fact alone sure sounds that way, however going into detail, it's pretty safe to say that it required little skill with a saber to do what Sidious did. I'm sure Dooku could kill them if they fought that way too.
Agen Kolar >>> AOTC Anakin and it took Sidious 1 second to beat Agen but about 50 seconds for Dooku to beat Anakin.
AotC Anakin wasn't standing still now, was he?
Originally posted by allfg
You miss the point; Makashi is designed for dueling. Most dueling techniques had become obsolete by the PT times, so it's likely that when Mace created the form, he didn't include too many dueling elements. And Mace didn't technically create the form, he just expanded on Juyo, like Kas'im did to all the forms.What the..?
that has been using a saber for
If you're trying to argue that Mace has more experience than a former [b]lightsaber instructorDS, you know my stance on things that contradict what we see in the movie.
Why wouldn't Mace use his full speed against Sidious?
Dooku was able to completely revitalise himself with the force in the RotS novelisation. With the force, age means little.
Proof?
Despite using on of the most energy consuming forms, when Dooku uses the least?
You're missing the point. Dooku's gotta require some pretty damn good strength to block two overhead attacks at the same time, one of them being from someone as strong as Anakin Skywalker.
I'll address this l8r.
Read through my post again. Dooku can simultaneously use both the force and his saber. How is Mace going to defend against the force while defending against a saber strike?
I'm not saying he'll be able to use it all the time against anybody, just that he's adept at it. And he actually did do the very thing I'm talking about in RotS. Oh, and Mace is no Yoda.
Begs for proof.
Since liek 4eva! Just kidding obviously, I never said speed makes you the best, but it is a factor, and probably the biggest one when it comes to saber dueling.
Key word = 'barely.'
Not being able to prevent three of your allies getting killed, and being dominated for almost the entire duel = barely handling.When I can get to the comic, I'll go into more detail. However, from what I remember, Mace was desperately trying to kill Dooku and was trying his hardest, and Dooku was taunting him the entire time. There's also the fact that he was able to force push him off a cliff at the end of the duel. Though I'll admit my choice of word wasn't great.
Excuse me? Wow, I really didn't expect this from you DS, completely uncalled for.
*Does not refute what I was saying*
How so? From what I saw, he struggled against Yoda the entire time. Dooku at least was able to hold his own against Yoda.
Gillard's not a canon source.
The fact alone sure sounds that way, however going into detail, it's pretty safe to say that it required little skill with a saber to do what Sidious did. I'm sure Dooku could kill them if they fought that way too.
AotC Anakin wasn't standing still now, was he? [/B]