Originally posted by Count Makashi
Makashi was probably only created for dueling, it only emphasis on that, while Vaapad is can be used in every situation, it wasn't created just for lightsaber fights.
Attempting to argue the superiority of Makashi over Vaapad isn't going to help the "pro-Dooku" legion in this case. On technical terms, you're right. Makashi is the undisputed best form to use in a duel. It is based on fencing and specifically for lightsaber-to-lightsaber methods of fighting. However, does this mean that someone who uses Makashi will automatically defeat someone using another form?
Hell. No.
Count Dooku is the most prolific user of Makashi that we have seen in the Star Wars universe. And yet he was unable to overcome Yoda in single combat - who uses the "inferior" form of Ataru. Count Dooku himself described Ataru as "ridiculous". On Boz Pity, Dooku was also unable to overcome Mace Windu and fled - and finally, on Invisible Hand, Dooku was unable to overcome Anakin and was killed in action.
So, if you "pro-Dooku" legion are indeed operating under the assertion that simply because Dooku has Makashi that he is automatically a step above Mace, you're incorrect.
Vaapad is proven to be "the deadliest" form. Meaning it is ultimately the more lethal style - the more dangerous. It is also the hardest to master, and corrupted Sora Bulq - who is not a Vaapad master. He is not in the realm of Windu when it comes to dueling. "Vaapad mastered him" - so says Mace. Thus, using those two in comparison is irrelevent.
On the flip side, Mace has two advantages over Dooku. His mastery of Shatterpoints and Vaapad's instinctive element of using the dark side to be a "weapon of the light". Thus, Dooku is already at a natural disadvantage when it comes to fighting Mace - and he has no defense against it or Mace's ability to detect weaknesses.
Really, people. Dooku has no advantage at all in lightsaber combat. Given that he fled from Windu on Boz Pity - despite giving his men the instructions that they should "leave the Jedi to [him]" makes me wonder. And you can whine that "Dooku was afraid for his own life" all you want. Dooku has fled before only when he was losing (see AotC and DR).
Lastly, given that Dooku was willing to throw himself at Yoda (twice), why is it that he would fear Mace...
...Oh wait.
Unless Mace was going to beat him. Hmm. Never thought of that.
Originally posted by vader11
He knew that Yoda could beat him but he was willing to throw himself at Yoda twice? I don't think Dooku would fear Mace since he didn't seem fear Yoda. But he would left coz he didn't want to die...
He knew that Yoda was going to beat him the first time. What did he do? He distracted him and fled.
The second time, he had a helluva lot more advantages. The dark side of Vjun enhancing his strength, for one. That's why he attacked Yoda a second time.
Originally posted by GideonI see. I agree that Mace is going to beat him. But he may have a chance to beat Mace if it was a pure force fight.
He knew that Yoda was going to beat him the first time. What did he do? He distracted him and fled.The second time, he had a helluva lot more advantages. The dark side of Vjun enhancing his strength, for one. That's why he attacked Yoda a second time.
Originally posted by DarthSith
Vaapad is nearly as good as Makashi is for dueling, Vaapad is good in every category, which is why it is the ultimate form. No, it wasn't designed primarily for dueling like Makashi was but it is good in everything, including dueling.
The point is, Makashi has the edge in dueling. Advantage: Dooku. The fact that Vaapad is better against multiple enemies or redirecting blaster bolts is irrelevant in this thread.
For what? Yes, a lightsaber instructor would get a lot of experience sparring with people who aren't much of a challenge, as far as real dueling goes, however, Mace could have as much or more experience than Dooku has.
We're not just talking about real life experience here, we're talking about all forms of experience. Dooku has decades on Mace in pure experience. From what we know, he also has more pure experience against other lightsaber duelists. Well let's see, we know that Dooku faced and killed Sifo-Dyas, Komari Vosa, he faced and defeated both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in AotC, he faced and stalemated Yoda also in AotC, he faced and defeated both Tholme and Sora Bulq at the same time, he again defeated Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars, he faced and killed Lorian Nod, he faced and defeated Assaj Ventress during the CW Cartoon, he faced both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time during RotS, and he faced quite a few more as well that I can't remember right now. So from what we know, Count Dooku has way more experience against lightsaber users than Mace Windu, and it makes sense too, given that there are more Jedi than there are Dark Jedi for Dooku to face. The point is, Count Dooku definitely has the experience advantage, there's no point in arguing it.
Okay, and where does it say that Mace used his full speed in the movies? And who says that speed is what will matter the msot in a saber duel?
Dude, there's no reason that Mace wouldn't fight to his best ability against Sidious. It was the most important duel of his life, he wasn't fatigued or injured or anything, there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have used his full speed.
Maybe he'd sacrifice it for power or defense or accuracy.
1. Power and speed basically go hand in hand. You don't just sacrifice one for another. The more speed you apply, the more power you produce. It's that simple.
2. Defence? You're comparing apples and oranges here. Speed, technique, strength and other such factors are what makes up defence.
3. In Shatterpoint, Mace was able to maintain the precision (accuracy) to punch Kar Vastor directly on the nose in quick succession in the blink of an eye. So clearly going at Shatterpoint speeds for Mace wouldn't require him to sacrifice accuracy, so your point fails.
Actually, the novel states that during the duel on the Invisible Hand that Dooku and Kenobi were getting tired but not Anakin. I'll post the exact quote if you wish me to. So yes, age does matter, the two oldest duelers in that fight got tired more quickly than the youngest one.
I didn't say that age means nothing, I said that it means little. Seeing as Mace isn't exactly the youngest or fittest force user in SW either, and seeing as he uses one of the most energy consuming forms while Dooku uses the least, I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to tire first. The only evidence that supports your stance is that Dooku is older than Mace Windu. Big deal, the force makes it so that age means little, I'd say the fact that Dooku uses the least energy consuming form speaks a lot more for Mace tiring first than Dooku's age does for Dooku tiring first.
I can't give it to you right know, swtimeline.ru seems to not be working, but it says so in the ROTS novel. I'll try swtimeline again tomorrow.
1. Read above, most of that destroys your point.
2. Without proof, you have no point.
3. So what, anyway? Dooku was fighting against two opponents at the same time, I really don't see how Dooku tiring quicker against Anakin Skywalker (who's younger and fitter than Mace anyway) in a circumstance where he was at a disadvantage means that Dooku would tire quicker than Mace Windu.
Most energy consuming is Ataru
I didn't say that Vaapad is the most energy consuming forms, but one of them. Besides Ataru, Vaapad is the most kinetic form of all.
and least is Soresu, so I don't now where you're getting this info from.
That's simply wrong. You seem to think that defence is devoid of speed and quick movements, which is bs. With Soresu Users, their parries would always have to match the speed of their opponent's blows, so it really varies on how much energy the opponent uses. makashi, on the other hand, is partly designed on conserving energy, with the form's precise cuts and whatnot. You're simply wrong here.
Blocking one strike? No, not really.
Erm, did you like just skim read through what I posted? He blocked two overhead swings at the same time, one of them from Anakin Skywalker, who not only is extremely physically strong, but also possesses a robotic hand. That kind of strength is pretty immense, and it's something Mace Windu has never replicated.
More importantly, how is Dooku going to use the Force while blocking Mace's saber?
Erm, maybe, just maybe, with his free hand... Did you happen to skim read through my post again? Dooku has shown the strength and general skill to duel and hold his own against extremely powerful opponents. Pulling off a force attack with his free hand really wouldn't be too hard for Dooku.
Lets see, when did Dooku use the Force before? Against Sora Bulq after who knows how many minutes of dueling
I really don't get what you're trying to say here.
and ROTS Kenobi when Kenobi was fighting with offense? That's not very impressive.
Both cases are impressive actually, not many people can claim to be so adept at pulling off impromptu force attacks while dueling.
He didn't use it against Anakin either time,
In AotC, he didn't need to. In RotS, he was trying to turn Anakin.
or Yoda eitehr time. If he could have why didn't he?
Firstly, I never said he could do it against just anybody, read through my posts again. All I was saying was that it's a pretty nice skill he has, and he could possibly use it successfully against Mace Windu. Personally, I consider the particular skill way more useful than Mace's overrated Shatterpoint.
He won't be able to use it against Mace, Mace is a Yoda, the databank says so, and if he's not good enough to use the Force on AOTC Anakin there's no way he can use it on Mace.
Context. Mace is arguably as great a pure duelist as Yoda. In speed and skill, he's not even close.
And I addressed your second point earlier.
Defense
Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. I addressed this earlier.
accuracy/precision
Accuracy and precision has its limits, speed doesn't. Speed is simply way more important, it plays into everything (offense, defence, general movement. Accuracy and Precision only really plays into offense).
and the ability to not make mistakes are at least as important
LMFAO! No, just no.
How was he being dominated for almost the entire fight? On the contrary, it was pretty much even tell Sidious got kicked onto his ass.
Watch again. Mace was being forced back at the start of the duel, and Sidious was quite clearly directing the entire duel. The constant grimaces on Mace's face beg to differ.
Dooku talked a little, but no more than he talked to Anakin and Kenobi in ROTS, was he toying with them?
At the point you're referring to, hell yeah.
And he talked just as much against Yoda in DR, was he toying with Yoda, too? I think not.
That's completely different, he was basically having a heart to heart with Yoda.
Just because Dooku liked to taunt doesn't mean that he could beat anybody that he taunts, cause he sure as hell didn't beat ROTS Anakin and he taunted him a few times.
I never said he could beat anyone he taunts, don't twist my words, and you already know my issues on the Dooku/Anakin fight so no need to bring them up again.
No offense, but your posts in this thread are pretty much bullshit, but at least I'm debating them and not just bashing you like most people do.
And lots of your posts are pretty idiotic as well, it's still not an excuse.
Overcome: to overcome, master, or subdue by superior force.to gain mastery over the bodily powers or mental faculties of
In otherwords, Mace won fair and square.
Again, that doesn't contradict that Sidious might have been holding back.
I'll address the rest later.
Anakin actually challenged one swordsman who is much superior to Agen to a good duel. Anakin was a very noted swordsman even at this point, and in the duel between Yoda and Dooku it says something like, "Yoda fought better than even the chosen one at the top of his game", (of course, by top, it means by AOTC, not FP. The quote isn't exact, but something like that is stated). By saying "not even", I'm inclined to say that Anakin is one hell of a swordsman by AOTC as well, prolly better than most.
Thank you darthsith19, for defending me, It was very chivalrous of you.
The point is, Makashi has the edge in dueling. Advantage: Dooku. The fact that Vaapad is better against multiple enemies or redirecting blaster bolts is irrelevant in this thread.
Originally posted by Gideon
On the flip side, Mace has two advantages over Dooku. His mastery of Shatterpoints and Vaapad's instinctive element of using the dark side to be a "weapon of the light". Thus, Dooku is already at a natural disadvantage when it comes to fighting Mace - and he has no defense against it or Mace's ability to detect weaknesses.Really, people. Dooku has no advantage at all in lightsaber combat. Given that he fled from Windu on Boz Pity - despite giving his men the instructions that they should "leave the Jedi to [him]" makes me wonder. And you can whine that "Dooku was afraid for his own life" all you want. Dooku has fled before only when he was losing (see AotC and DR).
Lastly, given that Dooku was willing to throw himself at Yoda (twice), why is it that he would fear Mace...
...Oh wait.
Unless Mace was going to beat him. Hmm. Never thought of that.
We're not just talking about real life experience here, we're talking about all forms of experience. Dooku has decades on Mace in pure experience. From what we know, he also has more pure experience against other lightsaber duelists. Well let's see, we know that Dooku faced and killed Sifo-Dyas, Komari Vosa, he faced and defeated both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in AotC, he faced and stalemated Yoda also in AotC, he faced and defeated both Tholme and Sora Bulq at the same time, he again defeated Anakin Skywalker during the Clone Wars, he faced and killed Lorian Nod, he faced and defeated Assaj Ventress during the CW Cartoon, he faced both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time during RotS, and he faced quite a few more as well that I can't remember right now. So from what we know, Count Dooku has way more experience against lightsaber users than Mace Windu, and it makes sense too, given that there are more Jedi than there are Dark Jedi for Dooku to face. The point is, Count Dooku definitely has the experience advantage, there's no point in arguing it.
Dude, there's no reason that Mace wouldn't fight to his best ability against Sidious. It was the most important duel of his life, he wasn't fatigued or injured or anything, there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have used his full speed.
1. Power and speed basically go hand in hand. You don't just sacrifice one for another. The more speed you apply, the more power you produce. It's that simple.
2. Defence? You're comparing apples and oranges here. Speed, technique, strength and other such factors are what makes up defence.
3. In Shatterpoint, Mace was able to maintain the precision (accuracy) to punch Kar Vastor directly on the nose in quick succession in the blink of an eye. So clearly going at Shatterpoint speeds for Mace wouldn't require him to sacrifice accuracy, so your point fails.
I didn't say that age means nothing, I said that it means little. Seeing as Mace isn't exactly the youngest or fittest force user in SW either, and seeing as he uses one of the most energy consuming forms while Dooku uses the least, I really don't see how Dooku's supposed to tire first. The only evidence that supports your stance is that Dooku is older than Mace Windu. Big deal, the force makes it so that age means little, I'd say the fact that Dooku uses the least energy consuming form speaks a lot more for Mace tiring first than Dooku's age does for Dooku tiring first.
2. Without proof, you have no point.
3. So what, anyway? Dooku was fighting against two opponents at the same time, I really don't see how Dooku tiring quicker against Anakin Skywalker (who's younger and fitter than Mace anyway) in a circumstance where he was at a disadvantage means that Dooku would tire quicker than Mace Windu.
That's simply wrong. You seem to think that defence is devoid of speed and quick movements, which is bs. With Soresu Users, their parries would always have to match the speed of their opponent's blows, so it really varies on how much energy the opponent uses. makashi, on the other hand, is partly designed on conserving energy, with the form's precise cuts and whatnot. You're simply wrong here.
Erm, did you like just skim read through what I posted? He blocked two overhead swings at the same time, one of them from Anakin Skywalker, who not only is extremely physically strong, but also possesses a robotic hand. That kind of strength is pretty immense, and it's something Mace Windu has never replicated.
Erm, maybe, just maybe, with his free hand... Did you happen to skim read through my post again? Dooku has shown the strength and general skill to duel and hold his own against extremely powerful opponents. Pulling off a force attack with his free hand really wouldn't be too hard for Dooku.
The only logical reason would be that he couldn't.
I really don't get what you're trying to say here.
Both cases are impressive actually, not many people can claim to be so adept at pulling off impromptu force attacks while dueling.
In AotC, he didn't need to. In RotS, he was trying to turn Anakin.
Context. Mace is arguably as great a pure duelist as Yoda. In speed and skill, he's not even close.
Watch again. Mace was being forced back at the start of the duel, and Sidious was quite clearly directing the entire duel. The constant grimaces on Mace's face beg to differ.
Sorry, the bell's about to ring, I'll try to get to the rest later. 🙁
Wow, I leave and some idiots leave some posts...
No guys, Vapaad is the best for dueling.
Its so overly obvious disagreeing with it just makes you embarrass yourselves.
Vapaad is a more finely tempered Form and has been stated to have more technical advantages than Makashi, even in a sword fight.
So duh, Vapaad does surpass Makashi in every aspect.
Like I said before, read it over and over again until you slowly realize it.