Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is funny, coming from the worst debater on this forum. The day you become a better debater than myself, or even in my league, is the day you can attempt to talk shit. However, I enjoy your nonsense because you're the only one on this planet who believes he makes any kind of sense whatsoever.
I can accpet that Nebaris has major biases that affect his abilities to form sensible arguments, but judging from the few occasions you've engaged me in a debate, I'd say Nebaris is a better debater.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet again, gameplay mechanics and canon facts elude you.
He talked about the Exile's training and canon feats, nothing to do with gameplay. And you call yourself a debater.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's nothing more than a baseless opinion which has been torn to shreds by Nai and myself.
Do you even know the meaning of baseless? How can it be baseless in the face of the Exile's Kotor achievements?
And speak for yourself, Nai hasn't denied that the Exile possessed great power in the force.
Originally posted by Allankles
He talked about, the Exile's training and canon feats, nothing to do with gameplay. And you call yourself a debater.
Again, if someone like Escape or Nai, Advent, Lightsnake said I can't debate, I would understand that. But from somebody that has NO idea how to debate, you sure seem to think you're some kind of authority. How would you even know what a logical debate if you can't do it yourself?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again, if someone like Escape or Nai, Advent, Lightsnake said I can't debate, I would understand that. But from somebody that has NO idea how to debate, you sure seem to think you're some kind of authority. How would you even know what a logical debate if you can't do it yourself?
I can't dictate who you respect, but if you think your replies to SW Legend were acceptable as counter arguments, then there's no parting you with your delusions. You're rarely part of the heart of the debate, and you rarely address any point with more than a curt dismissal. Debating is far from your strong suite, from what I've witnessed.
Let Nai head the pro Ulic debate, unless you're willing to pull up your socks.
Originally posted by Allankles
I can't dictate who you respect, but if you think your replies to SW Legend were acceptable as counter arguments, then there's no parting you with your delusions. Your rarely part of the heart of the debate, and you rarely address any point with more than a curt dismissal, debating is far from your strong suite, from what I've witnessed.
I don't give respect to people who have no common sense, nor can debate, IE you, AC, and Legend. You can claim whatever the hell you want, especially bullshit like me being rarely part of the heart of the debate, but if you read closely, I started the debate with AC..
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't give respect to people who have no common sense, nor can debate, IE you, AC, and Legend. You can claim whatever the hell you want, especially bullshit like me being rarely part of the heart of the debate, but if you read closely, I started the debate with AC..
...As I said I can't dictate who you'll respect. Yes, you did kick start the debate but you reduced your replies to simple dismissals and clear denials that were lacking in rational treatment.
Originally posted by Darth SexyYou do know that skill is relative when being compared to another person right?
Of course, but can any comparison be made based on the description "skillful"? That's why I question why you wanted it defined, as if that's possible in that instance, how about logically using Kotor 2' feats as a reference? Just an idea.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You said the same thing about Revan, lucking out blah blah. You don't have a point.
I never said anything of the sort about Revan. My Revan argument was on an entirely different issue. Try again.
Originally posted by Darth SexyWow, please explain to me how feat wars make any difference, seeing as how they are absolutely irrelevant to a 1 on 1 combat.. Dumbass.
How about considering the importance of feats, before writing out these dumb rebuttals? These are the stuff by which we discover a characters overall prowess. Killing Sith, destroying mercenaries etc etc
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, what Revan did was single handidly, not the exile. Not that it matters, feat wars are irrelevant
What?! 😕 You need to discover rational thinking, it really clears things up.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Lets see, the exile is an example that should drive home my point, but obviously you're incapable of understanding simple concepts. COntend with Nihilus lightsaber? Oh because he was proficient with it? Or that's right, there is nothing special about his lightsaber skills nor is there anything mentioned. Nihilus' other techniques? Oh you mean the basic force techniques.. Good one.
Ofcourse. Simple concepts like "lucking out" I assume, the bread and butter of the simple minded.
Who said anything about proficiency in lightsbaer combat, or anything about Nihilus combat abilities. I merely pointed out that you'd still have to fight a dangerous opponent even if you could theoretically loop out of the force. And the list of people that can do that is small anyway, so what the hell was your point, if you had any?
Your arguments are always besides the point, step it up.
Originally posted by Allankles
How? A few unique examples, and training time doesn't matter? Kun was powerful let's not assume he was anything more than that i.e. uber like a Nihilus. Luke becomes more powerful given more you know... training time. As does Vader and Yoda and Mace Windu, Oppo Rancis, I could go on and on.The prodigy also gets pwned if they get overzealous against a well trained and long trained opponent. Dooku v Anakin, Anakin V Obi, Luke v Sidious in ROTJ, Luke V Nightsister leader etc etc. Talent isn't all there is, there's will, training, and intelligence.
Let me just ask that: What training time are you even talking about ?
The Quel-Droma family is famous for their Jedi Knights. The mother of Ulic and Cay for example was one. Thus Ulic had Jedi around himself from his birth on. So Ulic had at least a rather similar training time compared to the Exile, yet he has seen more combat, more powerful opponents and he did start off with talent that the Exile didn't have. Seems as if he has all advantages on his side, actually.
Also, the Exile has done more than many Jedi including Ulic, plus she possesses abilities that make her grow in power at a startling rate.The Exile was very much a prodigy of the force, first denying it's will by becoming the only Jedi of the Mando wars to turn from war, then by continually growing in power with every kill, with everyone she came into contact with. She was most certainly a wonder, a prodigy of the force.
This is pretty hilarious. What has the Exile done that required duelling ability or an excessive amount of force power thus proving she was a powerful Jedi ? You're simply looking at her actions and their effects on the Galaxy. That's what I call "feat wars". Yet where is the testament for her power ? She casually stripped herself from the force as a measure of self-defence. Nice. Then she also casually developed some unique ability. Nothing of that was actually planned.
Yet look at her opponents. Kreia continually admits that she's far below any ancient Sith and technically says the same thing about Nihilus and Sion as well as the Exile. Kun was on par with the Ancient Sith. According to one of the inventors of those ancients and the inventor of Kun himself, Kevin J. Anderson, he was actually above him. And Ulic did stalemate him. You can't argue around it. And every of the Exile's feats does pretty much turn insignificant due to that one single display of Ulic's prowess in battle. The Exile is exactly what Kreia says compared to the likes of Kun or Ulic - a child playing with toys.
And before you begin slamming me over the use of the word prodigy, maybe you should check up on the meaning of the word.
Oh. The word applies on the Exile for having some rather unique abilities (force bonds, wound in the force). Unfortunatelly it doesn't apply to force control or lightsaber skills which is what would actually matter in a duel situation.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Really, your talking about a padawan who could be at the time 12 or 13 years old, she could be a late bloomer to the force, look at Ben Skywalker who distanced himself mentally from the force, the same could apply here, or even Scout.And really this average padawan goes on to become a Jedi Knight (and the normies don't get knighted as Zayne Carrick can atest to) then proceeds to go off in the Mando Wars, and is feared by the people your nutting your pants over. But yeah she's average. 🙄
Ben Skywalker did chose not to use his potential to the fullest extend. That's some huge difference between somebody with the will to reach a certain goal (Jedi Knight status for the Exile) and somebody who doesn't care.
Kreia: Ah yes, the Mandalorians were right to fear you.She says this when you talk about skills
And she's talking about the Mandalorians on Dxun who were fearing the Exile for commands she followed. Impressive.
And how does any of that compare to the Mando Wars in which one battle was enough to break some Jedi (Dxun)
Lmao. Yeah. The obvious Dark Side involvement is nothing compared to...some Mandalorians. You are right. Those wars aren't compareable. What Ulic went through is actually far worse.
Your judging her based off one event? Nice. Other then she was noted as feared among the Mando's, was Revans lead general of the entire fleet of Malachor, and was a you know " General " all of this implies she spent heavy time on the front lines.
Oh. She was the "lead general" of troops that Revan wanted to sacrifice ? Impressive. And the "General" implies that she spent a lot of time on the front lines. Maybe. Was she fighting there or giving commands ?
While raw talent I agree with, Knowledge and control, no.Knowledge:
They both had the same amount of access as Jedi to the knowledge about the light side and I for one can't see Ulic who is combat heavy, and a natrual at everything sitting down to study. Why would he as it comes to him as second nature. As a Sith he had the few scraps from the Karath, but that amounts to what now? The Exile however has Kreia who was a historian for many years and new both the Jedi and Sith more in depth then Ulic as his personal teacher.
I love this reasoning. So they both did have the same knowledge as Jedi. Yet somehow Kreia being a historian trumps people who did actually WITNESS the times Kreia talks about ? And then Kreia has more knowledge to offer than Kun (Sadow, Nadd) and the Krath (ancient Sith texts) ? This "logic" is really awesome. I mean. Less viable sources and less time to study results in greater knowledge. Fantastic.
Control:You mean the control Ulic exhibited when didn't turn his back on his family, order, friends, master and woman, or you mean when he didn't kill his brother, or when he didn't disobey Kun and got his ass handed to him because of it. Really now.
That is related to his force control, about which I was talking, how exactly ?
So wait, let me get this straight...Ulic who wasn't able to correct me if I'm wrong combat the force attack of Nomi and Vodo is all of a sudden on the level of a guy whom toyed with Vodo, murked the Jedi Master who taught Nomi her little trick with one force attack and shrugged of the Wall of Light like it was a joke. Regardless of Kuns dark side knowledge at the time when he dueled Ulic he:A. Didn't bother to use any of it.
B. Engaged him with a saber
C. Attains even MORE knowledge at the end of his life.
Thus the conclusion is: Kun was at his best AT the END of his life.
This is getting better and better.
First there was a group of Jedi confronting Ulic. Vodo asks them to join his attack. Conclusion: He wasn't powerful enough to do that alone.
And Kun did clearly enter the room with the intention to kill Ulic and Aleema. Why shouldn't he have used everything he could ? You might suggest that he did want to destroy him in a saber fight, but why didn't utilize his vast superiority in the force then in the same time he must have realized that he can't tool Ulic with a saber ? Because it wasn't present at that point in time or at least not to an extend as you wanted it to be.
Aside of that: The knowledge taken from Ossus was in Kun's hands just for some days or weaks and he didn't even use it. How would that have any effect on his power ?
Um who else trys to take on Massassi like that, and you'll notice how Kun tools her as a padawan then tosses her aside then doesn't even bother with her on Ossus. Yeah tough chick right there!
I was just giving you examples of Sylvar's physical strength. How many Jedi did you see shattering helmets or take on Massassi with their bare hands. Ok. She has claws...but really...pfff...
Other then she comments on how he overwhelmed her and how strong he was...
And he did that to an Jedi Master with unknown skills and strength. Impressive. But where does that help your argument ?
He must be great anyways, according to Kreia:
"Yes… of pain he has learned much. Of knowledge, of teaching, he knows nothing." (her about Sion)
"To have fallen so far and learned nothing – that is your failing." (Her talking to Sion)
Impressive the dude who...learned nothing.
And when will his drain fail him? Oh yeah against people who can completely become an absence presence in the force. Which is NOT Ulic.
Yes. That's exactly the point. The Exile was just capable of beating him because of her unique nature. Not because of her skill. Hence Nihilus is irrelevant.
IRRELEVANT.The force drain is the only power he needs as only a select few can resist it.
Again. It doesn't matter for this debate.
Well I am right as your logic contradict the character, and moreover as I said: It still does stop her intent to kill. And her trying her hardest to do it.
And she was still limited of doing it by the very nature of the Exile. Hence again: No influence on this debate.
Sorry I still don't see how that excludes passive use of the force, being as though he's smaller physically then Mandalore and still manages to overwhelm him, and again taking account that its second nature to him and that it is ULIC were talking about. I wouldn't put it past him.
Yeah. He's physically not as impressive as Mandalore ? What comic did you read, eh ?
That was easily broken by Kun, would that have happened to a lightsaber? No, go figure, idiot.
LMFAO. Ever seen TPM where Obi-Wan cuts Maul's lightsaber into pieces ? And it was "easily" broken by Kun ? You noticed how Kun hammered onto the stick multiple times, yes ? Aside of that: That doesn't change the omniscient narrators words saying that the stick, as it was, was more powerful than a lightsaber. Go figure, idiot.
I haven't watched AOTC in a while so I won't comment on it, and wasn't he trying to run and not fight? And Vader and Luke would have beaten Mandalore too. Whats your point?
No. He's obviously trying to kill Kenobi on the spot with all his fance gimmicks and obviously fails to do so. And Vader and Luke ? They are also both above the Exile, so what ? And please...Revan did slaughter one Mandalore. Somehow that was really impressive in terms of duelling. If Ulic does it, it's just some minor thing happening.
No, She fled Cathar in 3974 which she says she was still a baby, in 3961 apparently she joins the order after being freed by Revan, that would make her 13, still isn't an adult mind, still an adolescent and were not taking into account the Cathar probably don't have the same ageing rates as humans. Give a take a year she's still a kid when she starts.
Idiot. I'm talking about Telos, not Cathar. Her reason for joining the Jedi was that she witnessed Revan and followers freeing Telos which was her home "for many years" which happened during the Mandalorian Wars. And that still means she wasn't taken as a child (meaning baby) for Jedi training. That would take 1-1.5 decades from the training time you suggest for the Exile or everybody else from that time period.
Ben Skywalker did chose not to use his potential to the fullest extend. That's some huge difference between somebody with the will to reach a certain goal (Jedi Knight status for the Exile) and somebody who doesn't care.
And here again comes into play the fact that they were talking about the Exile as a padawan at the time, hence she could only be 12 or 13, then as a Jedi Knight we have NO QUOTES on her except for Kreia's, meaning she could have stopped her distance from the force, finally came into her own with the force. Really, just because you have no sense of time what so ever, don't put that type of idiocy in an argument.
And she's talking about the Mandalorians on Dxun who were fearing the Exile for commands she followed. Impressive.
WRONG. She speaking in respect to the Exiles skill, you don't have to be anywhere near Dxun during the conversation, in fact she is talking to you about SKILLS. I'm sure I've said this to you already, it does bore me to repeat myself (hence why I'm so unenthusiastic about this debate) Again as I've said in the past know what the hell your talking about before you attempt to about some smug "holier then thou" attitude about Star Wars.
Lmao. Yeah. The obvious Dark Side involvement is nothing compared to...some Mandalorians. You are right. Those wars aren't compareable. What Ulic went through is actually far worse.
So wait, scattered battles with the Karath which the bulk of the force was illusions, these battles when you look at the big picture amount to little more then a few acts of terrorism. These battles compare to a bloody year campaign against the Mandalorians? NOT ONE battle in the Great Sith Wars even had the potential to "break" a jedi mentally, the closets it comes is when Ulic loses it due to killing his brother, the fact that this event happened multiple times throughout the Mando Wars, proves that the fighting was on a whole different level then that of the Great Sith War.
Now please the casualty count is probably 10 times that of the Great Sith War, the fact that hundreds of force users participated in this battle not just a few which I can name off and I'm speaking of Ulics involvement directly: (Ulic, Exar, Sylvar, Tott, Odan, Vodo, Nomi, Cay, Thon, Arca, Jolee's wife, Aleema, Satal and unnamed padawans who actively participated in ZERO battles, and who's masters were so weak that they could actually be killed by padawans) Oh wow! Yeah teh dark sidesz brings it to anther levlz!
Oh. She was the "lead general" of troops that Revan wanted to sacrifice ? Impressive.
Implying she was important, palced above all the other Jedi and Jedi Masters like Aren Kae, in a position of command. Regardless of the situation.
And the "General" implies that she spent a lot of time on the front lines. Maybe. Was she fighting there or giving commands ?
Or how bout we actually SEE her leading charges on Dxun, while she was a general, moreover this battle was near the end of the wars, so that was likely her position the entire time on the front lines. Use some damn logic.
Yet somehow Kreia being a historian trumps people who did actually WITNESS the times Kreia talks about ?
Oh waitz Kreia is visibly 60+ the wars were 45 years ago, liek maybez she waz alive during that time tooz? OMG. 🙄
And then Kreia has more knowledge to offer than Kun (Sadow, Nadd)
Did I say that? Since when did Kun teach ANYTHING to Ulic, who was you know busy fighting his war for him.
and the Krath (ancient Sith texts) ? This "logic" is really awesome. I mean. Less viable sources and less time to study results in greater knowledge. Fantastic.
That is related to his force control, about which I was talking, how exactly ?
Emotions = force control, hence Anakin being so powerful he can crush buildings with a yell, and yet can't overcome Obi Wan in the mental state he was in. But please tell me, no, show me where Ulics uber control of the force is demonstrated. I'd really like to know.
This is getting better and better.
First there was a group of Jedi confronting Ulic. Vodo asks them to join his attack. Conclusion: He wasn't powerful enough to do that alone.
And? Vodo's weak, his lame ass couldn't kick the shit out of his padwan.
And Kun did clearly enter the room with the intention to kill Ulic and Aleema.
Oh yeah, and thats why his 1337 Sith magic and force powers that can tool Jedi Masters with a flick of his hand LATER ON. FAILS to kill Aleema who in comparison to any Jedi Master is a joke. But yeah, he was sooooo powerful at the time.
Why shouldn't he have used everything he could ? You might suggest that he did want to destroy him in a saber fight, but why didn't utilize his vast superiority in the force then in the same time he must have realized that he can't tool Ulic with a saber ?
Well lets see he just realized his the extent of his amulets ability (you noted his intent to kill) against a force user of Aleemas caliber (which isn't very high) was to merely KO her. The point is while Kun at that point is strong he's nowhere near his level at the end of his life, where he became so strong in the force he could shrug off the wall of light, and own Jedi Masters with a flick of his hand, and in that same incarnation albeit 4000 years of hibernation later, he is able to completely overwhelm Luke Skywalker.
Because it wasn't present at that point in time or at least not to an extend as you wanted it to be.
What his saber skill or force skill? Either only serves to PROVE my point dipshit, I was stating that Kun WASN'T hotshit at the time when he dueled Ulic, and he was at his best at the END OF HIS LIFE. Thus that serves to prove that while Ulic stalemating Kun is impressive some what its not the orgasm inducing nut fest your trying and failing to make it out to be.
Aside of that: The knowledge taken from Ossus was in Kun's hands just for some days or weaks and he didn't even use it. How would that have any effect on his power ?
And so he just ignored it, and mainly used the scrolls as toliet paper 🙄 really what the hell else is he gonna do but read and study from it, its not like he was doing shit else at the time, thats what the minions were for.
I was just giving you examples of Sylvar's physical strength. How many Jedi did you see shattering helmets or take on Massassi with their bare hands. Ok. She has claws...but really...pfff...