Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

And he did that to an Jedi Master with unknown skills and strength. Impressive. But where does that help your argument ?

The fact that she's a Jedi Master alone is proof she's above average, meaning she's better then your every day Jedi and it lends validity to Sions skill. And the fact she sat on the council further proves it. And before you bring up "Well Vodo must be good then." she to our knowledge didn't get her ass kicked by a padawan.

He must be great anyways, according to Kreia:
"Yes… of pain he has learned much. Of knowledge, of teaching, he knows nothing." (her about Sion)

"To have fallen so far and learned nothing – that is your failing." (Her talking to Sion)

Impressive the dude who...learned nothing.

Oh yeah super, quotes that are completely irrelevant, other then the fact Kreia flat out admits she hates Sion and Nihlius making her extremely biased, how is any of this a reflection of his power? Oh yeah its not. So are you going to waste my time with more irrelevant crap or should we get on with this?

Yes. That's exactly the point. The Exile was just capable of beating him because of her unique nature. Not because of her skill. Hence Nihilus is irrelevant.

Great, you figured that out all by yourself? I NEVER said beating Nihilus some how lent credit to the Exiles abilities in fact its the opposite. What I WAS saying was Nihilus isn't some joke that you seem to think he is. Seriously, your getting like the other idiot I was arguing with who had lacked the mental ability to read.

Again. It doesn't matter for this debate.

You are correct sir, but the point was you saying half the damn galaxy can resist it simply by "minimizing themselves" in the force. Get the f*ck out of here with that shit.

And she was still limited of doing it by the very nature of the Exile. Hence again: No influence on this debate.

I'm going to say this again, and as I've said it: severely annoys me to repeat my self constantly. Does not having a move stop her desire to kill the Exile? No. She can't do it as easily as she would have liked, but in that case she'd have to resort to un orthodox methods such as the three telekinetic sabers. Jesus Christ use you damn head.

Yeah. He's physically not as impressive as Mandalore ? What comic did you read, eh ?

I read the one where Ulic looks like this:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/sith-23.jpg

And Mandalore looks like this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Mandalore.jpg

Even when compared with Mandalor he's his physical inferior be it in height or mass:

http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mandaloreuliche7.png

LMFAO. Ever seen TPM where Obi-Wan cuts Maul's lightsaber into pieces ?

LMFAO. Ever seen DLOTS what the hilt to Exars double bladed lightsaber looks like? Heres a visual reminder:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Exar_Kun.jpg

Ron Simmons would sum this up best with:

http://ronsimmons.ytmnd.com/

Well said.

Looks like that hilt won't be cut in half by anyone.

And it was "easily" broken by Kun ? You noticed how Kun hammered onto the stick multiple times, yes ? Aside of that: That doesn't change the omniscient narrators words saying that the stick, as it was, was more powerful than a lightsaber. Go figure, idiot.

Advent just pwned the shit out of that little argument. So really moot point.

And please...Revan did slaughter one Mandalore. Somehow that was really impressive in terms of duelling. If Ulic does it, it's just some minor thing happening.

Because Ulic didn't slaughter Mandalore in fact he was getting beat at certain points.

Idiot. I'm talking about Telos, not Cathar. Her reason for joining the Jedi was that she witnessed Revan and followers freeing Telos which was her home "for many years" which happened during the Mandalorian Wars. And that still means she wasn't taken as a child (meaning baby) for Jedi training. That would take 1-1.5 decades from the training time you suggest for the Exile or everybody else from that time period.

First off ass clown its Taris, secondly, had you been reading you'd note that I said she FLED CATHAR AS A BABY. And Revans first known visit to Taris was in 3961, making her 13 when she joined the order, moreover she came as per recommendation from Revan as she said, that likely swayed the Jedi. And that still fits with the jedi recruiting kids, adolescents, such as Zayne was when he was, as the KOTOR comics show. Moreover, on Dantooine the Exile has a conversation where she reveals she spent all her early life on that planet and thus she doesn't remember her parents, that means she was taken as a very young child or a baby. All we can be certain of is the Jedi were taking young kids at the time >_<. And no dipshit, baby =/= child stop putting words in my mouth. A child is anywhere from 3 - 11, and with a recommendation from Revan the extra two years probably don't matter.

As I said idiot, know what the f*ck your talking about.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let me just ask that: What training time are you even talking about ?
The Quel-Droma family is famous for their Jedi Knights. The mother of Ulic and Cay for example was one. Thus Ulic had Jedi around himself from his birth on. So Ulic had at least a rather similar training time compared to the Exile, yet he has seen more combat, more powerful opponents and he did start off with talent that the Exile didn't have. Seems as if he has all advantages on his side, actually.

Why do you always miss the point. I only brought up the argument as a defense for training experience in star wars. It wasn't meant as a questioning of Ulic's training. Get the point.

Originally posted by Borbarad

This is pretty hilarious. What has the Exile done that required duelling ability or an excessive amount of force power thus proving she was a powerful Jedi ? You're simply looking at her actions and their effects on the Galaxy. Yet where is the testament for her power?

And fighting a master force user attacking you with three force controlled blades, isn't an example of force ability and/or saber skill? Holding off a virtual immortal, infused with tremendous rage, isn't an example? Defeating an entire academy of Sith Lords and trainees isn't an example? I mean c'mon, you don't pull of those feats without being impressive in the force. It's not just a matter of the effects, it's the feats by themselves.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yet look at her opponents. Kreia continually admits that she's far below any ancient Sith and technically says the same thing about Nihilus and Sion as well as the Exile. Kun was on par with the Ancient Sith. And Ulic did stalemate him. You can't argue around it. And every of the Exile's feats does pretty much turn insignificant due to that one single display of Ulic's prowess in battle. The Exile is exactly what Kreia says compared to the likes of Kun or Ulic - a child playing with toys.

And this is what your argument hinges on? Let me point out to you the few gaping holes in your argument:-

1) Kreia only thought her era of Jedi/Sith were weaker in lightsaber combat. She never admits being far below the ancients.

2) The ancients we've come to know never used lightsabers i.e. Sadow, Kressh, Ragnos etc.

3) Knowing your oversights, Ulic's feat doesn't even come close to making Kreia, Sion and Nihilus look inferior.

And lets get this straight about Kun, he was a lightsaber prodigy but we don't even really know how good he is compared to Sion and the TSL Sith, or any other era of Jedi/Sith for that matter.

He was certainly elite for his time, but I don't see what logic you're using to make Ulic's stalemate anywhere near as impressive as the Exile's scalps of Kreia and Sion.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Oh. The word applies on the Exile for having some rather unique abilities (force bonds, wound in the force). Unfortunatelly it doesn't apply to force control or lightsaber skills which is what would actually matter in a duel situation.

She most certainly exercised a great deal of control to come out of war and Kotor 2 alive. Her whole career is built upon her combat proficiency given that she's been in many large scale and dangerous battles, don't you think? And as for her lightsaber skills, use your logic, she'd certainly need to have them to get by Sion, Nihilus and Kreia: or are you going to argue she used blasters and grenades?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
gay

I'm gay for you Saxy. 😉

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet again, gameplay mechanics and canon facts elude you.

Do you seriously think that an average Jedi would survive all those challenges that Exile faced in K2?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's nothing more than a baseless opinion which has been torn to shreds by Nai and myself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, he's a regular force user with one incredible technique/

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sure

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Is that why she kept talking to the exile during the fight and told the exile the future?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Kreia was never a dark lord, wtf are you babbling about?

She also held the "Darth" title and was termed as "The Lord of Betrayal" for a good reason.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And what canon facts do you have to suggest in this case?

Do you seriously think that an average Jedi would survive all those challenges that Exile faced in K2?

Listen man! Kriea gave Exile a very hard challenge in the end because she wanted to test her student to determine that whether she was ready for some more expected dangerous challenges lying ahead or not. It was a fight to the death in which one person would emerge victorious and one would fall. And the Jedi Exile proved her immense skill by defeating her very powerful Jedi Master. Kriea wanted to ensure that the person she trained was indeed well prepared to battle on her own if situation demands such.

A regular Force User cannot lift an extremely heavy object the size of Ravager with the Force. You certainly are in denial.

Conversations during fights are not alien in Star Wars.

She also held the "Darth" title and was termed as "The Lord of Betrayal" for a good reason. [/B]

Um so what? That makes her a DLOTS? I guess Bandon was uber powerful as well because he had the Darth title.

. Nihilus was an AVERAGE force user with 1 good technique.

I vote this quote for The Stupidest Statement This Week.

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is measure of his power."
--Tobin

Name me one "AVERAGE" Force user who can tear a fleet of ships from a gravity well.

I am eagerly awaiting your response.

Also do inform me of average Force users who move ships through space, despite the hull being compromised and the ship totally not spaceworthy? Who, with no exertion of power, still manage to enslave the minds of all who come into their presence just by the fact of their sheer power?

If Nihilus can move a ship or fleet of ships out of a gravity well...he can throw Kun around like a ping pong ball.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I vote this quote for The Stupidest Statement This Week.

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is measure of his power."
--Tobin

Name me one "AVERAGE" Force user who can tear a fleet of ships from a gravity well.

I am eagerly awaiting your response.

Let me guess, Nihilus kept the ship up with the force, and when he died teh ship self destructed. Oh wait, no it didn't. Since when is Tobin an authority on the force? One of the characters in KOTOR said the ground shook as Kun walked, should we take that literally as well?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Also do inform me of average Force users who move ships through space, despite the hull being compromised and the ship totally not spaceworthy? Who, with no exertion of power, still manage to enslave the minds of all who come into their presence just by the fact of their sheer power?

If Nihilus can move a ship or fleet of ships out of a gravity well...he can throw Kun around like a ping pong ball.

And this is why you don't participate in debates.

Let me guess, Nihilus kept the ship up with the force, and when he died teh ship self destructed. Oh wait, no it didn't. Since when is Tobin an authority on the force? One of the characters in KOTOR said the ground shook as Kun walked, should we take that literally as well?

Been said already and you just ignore it. We don't know if it was a constant effort by Nihilus to make the ship habitable or if it required he do it once a month or anything. There is no denying the fact that several parts of the ship are exposed to space, including the bridge, and people were still living there.

And it has nothing to do with The Force. It has to do with ship infastructure.

I think it was the Mandalore who also said:
"the ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago."

So, prove to me these quotes are wrong. You ASSUME that the ship should fall apart when Nihilus dies but that is not stated anywhere.

And this is why you don't participate in debates.

Okay then, oh great and awesome debating champion of unrivaled superiority.

Explain to me how Exar Kun, a man who has not shown or been said to be capable of countering or using Force TK on a magnitude of pulling fleets out of a gravity well, will NOT be thrown around like a ping pong ball by Nihilus.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Been said already and you just ignore it. We don't know if it was a constant effort by Nihilus to make the ship habitable or if it required he do it once a month or anything. There is no denying the fact that several parts of the ship are exposed to space, including the bridge, and people were still living there.

And it has nothing to do with The Force. It has to do with ship infastructure.

I think it was the Mandalore who also said:
"the ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago."

So, prove to me these quotes are wrong. You ASSUME that the ship should fall apart when Nihilus dies but that is not stated anywhere.

Okay then, oh great and awesome debating champion of unrivaled superiority.

Explain to me how Exar Kun, a man who has not shown or been said to be capable of countering or using Force TK on a magnitude of pulling fleets out of a gravity well, will NOT be thrown around like a ping pong ball by Nihilus.

Why the hell should it be stated anywhere? You're making the assertion that Nihilus held the ship up with the force, and I'm simply disproving it by stating that the ship was still intact when Nihilus died, thereby destroying your weak argument.

"He holds it together..and he keeps us all alive."

Quote > your opinion.

Good god, you're one of those who want specific proof that guy X can defeat guy Y for it to be true. Unbelievable.

Dear god no!!

Wanting evidence to why you say a character can win a fight?!?

What is the world coming to.

Nihilus' alleged abilities proved useless against the exile

He used one power, his drain and it weakened him. He was already weakened from having nothing to feed on. Far as I recall, he never used his TK on her so your point is useless.

and even Traya, who he couldn't even kill.

He didn't try to kill her. He slammed her against a wall and weakened her somehow. Nothing except the cut content says he was intending to kill her as far as I know.

He is an average force user with one powerful ability magnified by the fact that he was a wound in the force, nothing else.

Originally posted by Me

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is measure of his power."
--Tobin

Name me one "AVERAGE" Force user who can tear a fleet of ships from a gravity well.

Also do inform me of average Force users who move ships through space, despite the hull being compromised and the ship totally not spaceworthy? Who, with no exertion of power, still manage to enslave the minds of all who come into their presence just by the fact of their sheer power?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
"He holds it together..and he keeps us all alive."

Quote > your opinion.

Dear god no!!

Wanting evidence to why you say a character can win a fight?!?

What is the world coming to.

He used one power, his drain and it weakened him. He was already weakened from having nothing to feed on. Far as I recall, he never used his TK on her so your point is useless.

He didn't try to kill her. He slammed her against a wall and weakened her somehow. Nothing except the cut content says he was intending to kill her as far as I know.

Originally posted by Me

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is measure of his power."
--Tobin

Name me one "AVERAGE" Force user who can tear a fleet of ships from a gravity well.

Tobin is a fallible 3rd party character because he has no knowledge of the force. Once again, Nihilus was an AVERAGE force user with 1 ability that was magnified by him being a wound in the force.

Also do inform me of average Force users who move ships through space, despite the hull being compromised and the ship totally not spaceworthy? Who, with no exertion of power, still manage to enslave the minds of all who come into their presence just by the fact of their sheer power?

Quote also comes from a fallible 3rd party character who has no knowledge of the force. Facts+Physics>your opinion

I repeat:
knowledge of The Force = irrelevant.

""the ship is barely holding itself together. The structural damage should have destroyed it long ago"

There's no other explanation for how the ship and everyone in it survive except for what was offered. You have nothing DS, NO explanation other than what is said point blank. The ship did not fall apart when Nihilus died is fact but AGAIN, we don't know why this is. There are multitudes of reasons.

No one cares what you think, DS. We care about facts. Your intterpretation of why the Ravager did not fall apart does not equal fact in any shape or form. We are given quotes and it is OUR duty to deduce why the ship did not fall apart, using what is fact. Explanations have been offered, such as Nihilus periodically using his power to keep the ship going instead of constantly.

It could also simply be a plothole.

You're right, he DIDNT want to kill her, he just tried to "eat" the force from her and when that failed, he had Sion kick the piss out of her, and leave her to her death.

and even Traya, who he couldn't even kill.

Total fail much?

You try to use the fact he didn't kill Traya as a mark against hima nd then freedly admit in your next post that he didn't want to...

KTHXBAI.

Honestly, DS, you suck at debating. You deny any statement you don't like. We have nothing to contradict what Toblin says about him taking the Ravager and his fleet out from Malachor. Until you can prove the statement is false, your opinion on the validity of said statement is useless.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I repeat:
knowledge of The Force = irrelevant.

There's no other explanation for how the ship and everyone in it survive except for what was offered. You have nothing DS, NO explanation other than what is said point blank. The ship did not fall apart when Nihilus died is fact but AGAIN, we don't know why this is. There are multitudes of reasons.

No one cares what you think, DS. We care about facts. Your intterpretation of why the Ravager did not fall apart does not equal fact in any shape or form. We are given quotes and it is OUR duty to deduce why the ship did not fall apart, using what is fact. Explanations have been offered, such as Nihilus periodically using his power to keep the ship going instead of constantly.

It could also simply be a plothole.

You try to use the fact he didn't kill Traya as a mark against hima nd then freedly admit in your next post that he didn't want to...

Honestly, DS, you suck at debating. You deny any statement you don't like. We have nothing to contradict what Toblin says about him taking the Ravager and his fleet out from Malachor. Until you can prove the statement is false, your opinion on the validity of said statement is useless. [/B]

Thanks for your opinion troll, nobody cares. Now please, next time you feel compelled to interrupt a debate, make sure you bring something to the table, other than stupidity. And stop trying to make prove a negative, it makes you seem stupid.

How the hell is it irrelevant if Tobin doesn't understand the force, nor understands if/how NIhilus allegedly holds his ship together? Again, fallible 3rd party character.

Because it's talking about the ship's condition. The ship is a wreck and it is stated that it could not even fly in the condition it was in (again, no proof to the contrary). However, it does fly, through Nihilus' power.

Porve to me the ship was spaceworthy without any intervention by Nihilus, when me and you don't even know in what way Nihilus used his power to make the ship spaceworthy.

I have logical deduction, which as KOTOR II shows us, Nihilus was NOT holding the ship up with the force, because if he was, the ship would have been gone after he died.

My logical deduction, working with the canon statement, is that Nihilus did hold the ship up but did not need to constantly exert his power to do so.

I'm not throwing out canon statements. I'm working with them to explain it.

Don't try to offer bullshit excuses. In fact you haven't even offered an argument. Offer one and I'll take you more seriously.

I'm having patience with you.

I'll ask again.

Where does Toblin say Nihilus had to constantly exert himself to make the ship work?

All he says is "he keeps it together."

It does not say "he keeps it together...as soon as he dies, the ship will fall apart." It also doesn't say "his constant will and exertion keeps it together."

For all we know. Nihilus used a power every year and fixed it up and it will work fine for another year.

Stop acting like what you think is a fact.

Whatever you say troll

Troll?

For using facts?

I'm sorry if I have yet to reach the debating plateau you have, where your opinion is as good as canon, but I'm still not willing to say what I think is the end all to debate.

Except the simple fact that the Ravager did not fall apart means that Nihilus was NOT holding it up with the force

Where does Toblin say Nihilus had to constantly exert himself to make the ship work?

All he says is "he keeps it together."

It does not say "he keeps it together...as soon as he dies, the ship will fall apart." It also doesn't say "his constant will and exertion keeps it together."

For all we know. Nihilus used a power every year and fixed it up and it will work fine for another year.

Stop acting like what you think is a fact.

This is a logical deduction forum, not a "take quotes to a whole new level of bullshit" forum.

This is also the "My Opinion Is Not Fact" forum where what users think is canon. Your logic is not my logic because I do not interpret the quote the same way you do. I will use the quote because there's nothing to contradict it. I will explain the quote but even then, I will not offer my interpretation as fact because it's not.

You take the quote and twist it. He holds it together through unknown means and methods. Nothing whatsoever says upon his death it will collapse or that the ship's structural integrity is dependent on the constnat use of The Force.

Gosh, what a compelling argument.

Moreso than your own, yes.

Nihilus tried to kill her because that's what his force drain doe

*looks at the animation of the Force Drain*

*looks at what he did to Kreia*

Hm.... Where's it say he tried to drain Traya? Because it definitely doesn't show him using the Drain on her. He threw her into a wall.

You are clearly void of common sense(as advent puts it)

Because we all know you havent' been destroyed by Advent many times.

If you want to bullshit and say it wasn't the force drain, you're sadly mistaken, because Kreia tells the story and right when that happens she states that there are techniques in the force for which there is no defense.

There's defenses to Force Drain.

Tell me where anyone calls what he did to her a Force Drain. I want the statement. Because what we see of it, it's not the Drain. So, if what we see doesn't make it a Drain and what we read doesn't label it a drain...I'm not calling it a drain.

Thanks for your opinion troll, nobody cares

I care.

I'll also kindly ask you not to call me a troll when it is you who constantly labels what you think as fact.

Now please, next time you feel compelled to interrupt a debate, make sure you bring something to the table, other than stupidity. And stop trying to make prove a negative, it makes you seem stupid.

I asked you to prove it's not true.

Because you SAID it wasn't.

"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is measure of his power."
--Tobin

Name me one "AVERAGE" Force user who can tear a fleet of ships from a gravity well.

[quote]Tobin is a fallible 3rd party character because he has no knowledge of the force.

You are trying to say what he recounts of Nihilus pulling the fleet away as somehow false because the character doesn't know about The Force. This is simply what you think and if your thinking contradicts what is canonically stated, you need to prove it's wrong and false.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And here again comes into play the fact that they were talking about the Exile as a padawan at the time, hence she could only be 12 or 13, then as a Jedi Knight we have NO QUOTES on her except for Kreia's, meaning she could have stopped her distance from the force, finally came into her own with the force. Really, just because you have no sense of time what so ever, don't put that type of idiocy in an argument.

Oh what genious conclusions you are drawing again. They're talking about the time when the Exile was a Padawan, yes. That just means it was somewhere between the time she started her Jedi training and the time she became a Jedi Knight. She also could have been 18 or 19.

WRONG. She speaking in respect to the Exiles skill, you don't have to be anywhere near Dxun during the conversation, in fact she is talking to you about SKILLS. I'm sure I've said this to you already, it does bore me to repeat myself (hence why I'm so unenthusiastic about this debate) Again as I've said in the past know what the hell your talking about before you attempt to about some smug "holier then thou" attitude about Star Wars.

And Kreia can tell that the Mandalorians feared the Exile how exactly ? The only educated guess Kreia could give would be about the Mandalorians on Dxun as she might have sensed some fear there. Yet Mandalorians don't even know the meaning of the word "fear". They, at best, have some respect for their enemies. They also "respected" Revan instead of "fearing" him.

So wait, scattered battles with the Karath which the bulk of the force was illusions, these battles when you look at the big picture amount to little more then a few acts of terrorism. These battles compare to a bloody year campaign against the Mandalorians? NOT ONE battle in the Great Sith Wars even had the potential to "break" a jedi mentally, the closets it comes is when Ulic loses it due to killing his brother, the fact that this event happened multiple times throughout the Mando Wars, proves that the fighting was on a whole different level then that of the Great Sith War.

Now please the casualty count is probably 10 times that of the Great Sith War, the fact that hundreds of force users participated in this battle not just a few which I can name off and I'm speaking of Ulics involvement directly: (Ulic, Exar, Sylvar, Tott, Odan, Vodo, Nomi, Cay, Thon, Arca, Jolee's wife, Aleema, Satal and unnamed padawans who actively participated in ZERO battles, and who's masters were so weak that they could actually be killed by padawans) Oh wow! Yeah teh dark sidesz brings it to anther levlz!

Go get some knowledge or STFU.

a) First conflict to start with would be the original Mandalorian Crusade which happened during that time. In case you didn't notice that. I guess that was pretty bloody.

b) Next think would be the Beast Wars on Onderon. Let me see. You can look into the comics and see countless people dying on Onderon during that time. The use of Dark Side powers first fooled the Jedi completely (Amanoa) and then they had quite some hard time in defeating Amanoa and after that Ommin. Because the Dark Side totally blocked their own abilities in certain situations. What did the Mandalorians do compareable to that ? The Mandalorians can't use the force. They are ruthless warriors, yes. But aside of that nothing special.

c) The Krath. Actually Ulic says that they "Don't know what they unleashed, making them even more dangerous" in case you don't remember that statement. And please. People able to generate massive illusions capable of fooling and even killing people (even Jedi) are surely nothing to laugh at. That nice raid on Deneba surely claimed the life of many Jedi.

d) Kun's own campaing. You're talking about "lives claimed". Did somebody in the Mandalorian Wars create a freaking supernova, blowing the entire Cron Cluster into nothingness, destroying multiple Star Systems (e.g. the Auril system) ? I must have missed that actually.

Implying she was important, palced above all the other Jedi and Jedi Masters like Aren Kae, in a position of command. Regardless of the situation.

She was ranked below Malak, Revan himself, various other Dark Siders and of course Admiral Karath. And it's even noted that she is a "natural leader" due to her force bond abilities. What does that say about her skills when it comes to force use or lightsaber combat ? Obviously nothing.

Or how bout we actually SEE her leading charges on Dxun, while she was a general, moreover this battle was near the end of the wars, so that was likely her position the entire time on the front lines. Use some damn logic.

And that does mean what exactly ? She managed to survive a battle where an army of force users and regular soldiers overwhelmed some non-force-users. Damn. How impressive that is.

Oh waitz Kreia is visibly 60+ the wars were 45 years ago, liek maybez she waz alive during that time tooz? OMG. 🙄

Oh this is great. Let's play "guess the age". She could also be in her 50s or even younger as Atton descripes her appearance as a result of her tough life. So ? Aside of that we don't know if she was a Jedi or Padawan even when the war happened. By the way: Nice language use. Fits your mental state rather good.

Did I say that? Since when did Kun teach ANYTHING to Ulic, who was you know busy fighting his war for him.

Since when does a Sith Lord not teach his apprentice ?

The Jedi archives on Dantooine contain dozens of Sith holocrons (the ones Atris admits to taking) guess what? Kreia was a historian, she SAID she studied the Sith and the Jedi and her area of expertise seems to be the "Ancient" Sith, hey guess who isn't ancient? Exar, meaning she's not doing a case study of but of Markas Ragnos. Hence why she has more knowledge then that of some rich kids with a few scraps of papers left by Naad which Exar Kun says: "Were only the beginning of Sith knowledge." Finally there's no indication that Ulic learned ANY of it.

And that does apply to the fight here how exactly ? Kreia might now what she wants. The Exile is canonically lightside - no knowledge about Dark Side abilities. And until you show me where Kreia simply blasts the skin of random persons off I guess the "rich kids" had also some nice amount of knowledge compared to her.

Emotions = force control, hence Anakin being so powerful he can crush buildings with a yell, and yet can't overcome Obi Wan in the mental state he was in. But please tell me, no, show me where Ulics uber control of the force is demonstrated. I'd really like to know.

Emotions can be utilized to gain more force control as you might have noticed. Vader for example was in a constant state of hatred. It requires focus. Ulic was a hot-head, yes. But as you might have noticed he still jumps through Ommin's force attack that pretty much floored the rest of the Jedi on Onderon. And even without control: Notice how easy he brought down Nomi to her knees with his force amulet just before the duel with Kun.

And? Vodo's weak, his lame ass couldn't kick the shit out of his padwan.

Ooooh. That's why he disarmed Kun and put his padawan on his ass with two movements when Kun already was descriped as "master swordsman". Yeah. Go figure, idiot.

Oh yeah, and thats why his 1337 Sith magic and force powers that can tool Jedi Masters with a flick of his hand LATER ON. FAILS to kill Aleema who in comparison to any Jedi Master is a joke. But yeah, he was sooooo powerful at the time.

He kills Odan with a force choke. That's neither Sith magic nor any special force power. And Aleema is a joke compared to a Jedi Master how exactly ? One of her Sith magic attack simply burned the flesh of one of her minions off his bones in case you didn't notice that.

And yes. He was indeed powerful at that time. Which doesn't matter anyway because the Exile never was anything special in terms of "power". So ?

Well lets see he just realized his the extent of his amulets ability (you noted his intent to kill) against a force user of Aleemas caliber (which isn't very high) was to merely KO her.

Let's see. I didn't see a blast with the size of a room actually hitting her. So Kun obviously didn't use his amulet against her. And again the sister amulet with a casual, unfocused, short blast did bring Nomi Sunrider right down on her knees. And that was...Ulic's amulet that he received just a few minutes before.

The point is while Kun at that point is strong he's nowhere near his level at the end of his life, where he became so strong in the force he could shrug off the wall of light, and own Jedi Masters with a flick of his hand, and in that same incarnation albeit 4000 years of hibernation later, he is able to completely overwhelm Luke Skywalker.

Which is your stupid claim which you have no base for. As you might have noticed Exar simply walks through a battlefield to reach Aleema and Ulic without even caring what happens around him "untouched by fire or shrapnel" and when Oss Willum looks down on him from above he says that Kun is "immensely strong in the force". Then Aleema waking up perceives him and Ulic as "rippling with Dark Side energy...more power than all her Sith Magic has given her". And he still did nothing between his duel with Ulic and his first visit to Ossus when he kills Odan and resists the wall of light attack.

What his saber skill or force skill? Either only serves to PROVE my point dipshit, I was stating that Kun WASN'T hotshit at the time when he dueled Ulic, and he was at his best at the END OF HIS LIFE. Thus that serves to prove that while Ulic stalemating Kun is impressive some what its not the orgasm inducing nut fest your trying and failing to make it out to be.

Oh my. Kun at this time is still already more powerful than anybody the Exile has ever confronted. So what ?

And so he just ignored it, and mainly used the scrolls as toliet paper 🙄 really what the hell else is he gonna do but read and study from it, its not like he was doing shit else at the time, thats what the minions were for.

Idiot. He just had that knowledge for some days. As you might have noticed, Ulic's tells the Jedi his whereabouts and immediatly after that you have the Jedi attacking Yavin 4. So some days did pass and Kun plundered entire ships filled with knowledge. Jedi Knowledge that was. How would that have made him significantly more powerful or affect his Dark Side knowledge in any way, huh ?

The fact that she's a Jedi Master alone is proof she's above average, meaning she's better then your every day Jedi and it lends validity to Sions skill. And the fact she sat on the council further proves it. And before you bring up "Well Vodo must be good then." she to our knowledge didn't get her ass kicked by a padawan.

Urm. How does a status that everybody receives sooner or later is a testament for her skill ? She did sit in the Jedi Council, yes. So did Ki-Adi-Mundi who has been noted to just have archieved that position because of his immense logical abilities not because of his power or lightsaber skills. So what ?

Oh yeah super, quotes that are completely irrelevant, other then the fact Kreia flat out admits she hates Sion and Nihlius making her extremely biased, how is any of this a reflection of his power? Oh yeah its not. So are you going to waste my time with more irrelevant crap or should we get on with this?

Reflection of his power ? What power are you talking about ? Aside from not falling into pieces he didn't demonstrate any special abilities. Really powerful the guy.

You are correct sir, but the point was you saying half the damn galaxy can resist it simply by "minimizing themselves" in the force. Get the f*ck out of here with that shit.

Sorry. This is actually the case. People hiding their force presence would simply give Nihilus no target to attack with his force drain. Dooku for example descripes Sidious as a "black hole" in the force because of his mastery of the matching ability (RotS novel). That doesn't mean that they would automatically beat him only that it would render his most precious attack useless.

LMFAO. Ever seen DLOTS what the hilt to Exars double bladed lightsaber looks like? Heres a visual reminder:

Looks like that hilt won't be cut in half by anyone.

You did actually notice how Dooku cuts one of Anakin's lightsabers into pieces in AotC ? You did notice how Obi-Wan repeats that action with one of Grievous lightsabers in RotS ? And notice how you questioned Vodo's weapon choice. His stick technically can't be shattered by a lightsaber...a lightsaber hilt can be cut into pieces. You were saying ?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Because it's talking about the ship's condition. The ship is a wreck and it is stated that it could not even fly in the condition it was in (again, no proof to the contrary). However, it does fly, through Nihilus' power.

Porve to me the ship was spaceworthy without any intervention by Nihilus, when me and you don't even know in what way Nihilus used his power to make the ship spaceworthy.

My logical deduction, working with the canon statement, is that Nihilus did hold the ship up but did not need to constantly exert his power to do so.

I'm not throwing out canon statements. I'm working with them to explain it.

Where does Toblin say Nihilus had to constantly exert himself to make the ship work?

It does not say "he keeps it together...as soon as he dies, the ship will fall apart." It also doesn't say "his constant will and exertion keeps it together."

For using facts?

I'm sorry if I have yet to reach the debating plateau you have, where your opinion is as good as canon, but I'm still not willing to say what I think is the end all to debate.

This is also the "My Opinion Is Not Fact" forum where what users think is canon. Your logic is not my logic because I do not interpret the quote the same way you do. I will use the quote because there's nothing to contradict it. I will explain the quote but even then, I will not offer my interpretation as fact because it's not.

*looks at the animation of the Force Drain*

*looks at what he did to Kreia*

Hm.... Where's it say he tried to drain Traya? Because it definitely doesn't show him using the Drain on her. He threw her into a wall.

Because we all know you havent' been destroyed by Advent many times.

There's defenses to Force Drain.

Tell me where anyone calls what he did to her a Force Drain. I want the statement. Because what we see of it, it's not the Drain. So, if what we see doesn't make it a Drain and what we read doesn't label it a drain...I'm not calling it a drain.

I asked you to prove it's not true.

IN short, you're a moron.

Originally posted by Allankles
And fighting a master force user attacking you with three force controlled blades, isn't an example of force ability and/or saber skill? Holding off a virtual immortal, infused with tremendous rage, isn't an example? Defeating an entire academy of Sith Lords and trainees isn't an example? I mean c'mon, you don't pull of those feats without being impressive in the force. It's not just a matter of the effects, it's the feats by themselves.

1) Fighting Kreia is special how exactly ? First defeat happens in a saber fight where Kreia just has one hand while the Exile is in top shape. I'm surprised the Exile actually wins this. Levitating the blade still wasn't anything special. They won't be as good as usual wielded blades and well...Kenobi managed to take on four blades at once (vs Grievous). Yet, as far as the game shows us, Kreia does just attack with one blade at a time.

2) Sion is also nothing special. Other than the fact that he can't be killed what did he do special ? Is he exceptionally good as a duellist ? In terms of force powers ?

3) Gameplay issue. First: You can technically stealth through the entire academy without killing a single person. Second: Even if you don't do most of the opponents are blaster wielding none force users. Third: The force users which you actually encouter a pretty damn weak.

Yet notice how all this people weren't powerful enough to play any significant role in Revan's own Sith Empire when Revan, the most powerful individual at that point, was still below Kun in any Jedi / Sith discipline. Simply not as impressive as you like it to be.

And this is what your argument hinges on? Let me point out to you the few gaping holes in your argument:-

1) Kreia only thought her era of Jedi/Sith were weaker in lightsaber combat. She never admits being far below the ancients.

Dude. Again the quote for you as it annoys me like hell you come up with the same bullshit again and again.

"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

She does not talk about lightsaber combat but instead refers to combat in general and puts herself as well as everybody else far below those Ancient Sith when she compares herself and her followers at that time (e.g. the Exile) to "children playing with toys" compared to said Ancient Sith.

2) The ancients we've come to know never used lightsabers i.e. Sadow, Kressh, Ragnos etc.

Doesn't matter as Kreia isn't talking about lightsaber combat but about combat in general and the battle prowess of the ancients.

3) Knowing your oversights, Ulic's feat doesn't even come close to making Kreia, Sion and Nihilus look inferior.

Knowing your ignorance Ulic has still destroyed the spirit of an Ancient Sith possessing a guy in an armor entchanted by Sith Alchemy (Warb Null). You know: One of the beings that would make Kreia and her friends look like children in comparison. Ulic defeated one of them. And that makes Ulic more powerful than Kreia and the Exile.

And lets get this straight about Kun, he was a lightsaber prodigy but we don't even really know how good he is compared to Sion and the TSL Sith, or any other era of Jedi/Sith for that matter.

Kun has been noted to have been the single most powerful individual in the entire Galaxy in that point in time. Which logically puts him above everybody else. Including Thon, a person able to actually defeat some Sith that was capable of whiping out the entire life on a planet with a single Dark Side attack. Obviously Kun is far more powerful than any of the Sith shown in TSL.

He was certainly elite for his time, but I don't see what logic you're using to make Ulic's stalemate anywhere near as impressive as the Exile's scalps of Kreia and Sion.

See above. Kun, at this point, had already mastered the entire Sith knowledge that Sadow left behind. Since that is the only Sith knowledge he had that means this would include attacks that even post-DE Luke (in the JA trilogy) had no sufficient defence against. Kun wrecked people that did spent more than 1,000 years in studying the force and it's secret with a single force attack.

And the Exile might do what she wants. How would she survive a fight with Ulic who would be capable of at least put her on the floor with a single blast of his "deadly" Sith amulet (unless you want to argue that the Exile is more powerful than Nomi "the prodigy" Sunrider) aside from the fact that Ulic did already defeat somebody in combat that was possessed by the spirit of an Ancient Sith - one of those guys that Kreia and the Exile are just "children" compared to. And that was even before he succumbed to the Dark Side.

She most certainly exercised a great deal of control to come out of war and Kotor 2 alive. Her whole career is built upon her combat proficiency given that she's been in many large scale and dangerous battles, don't you think? And as for her lightsaber skills, use your logic, she'd certainly need to have them to get by Sion, Nihilus and Kreia: or are you going to argue she used blasters and grenades?

The point is that we don't know how good Kreia, Nihilus or Sion are with force powers or lightsabers. What we know is that none of them had a significant position in Revan's Sith Empire where everything was based on personal power. And we know that Kun and Ulic both were prodigies in both force use and lightsaber combat, that they were both chosen by the Ancient Sith to become the heirs of the Ancient Sith Empire.

Yet the Exile still never confronted people "rippling with Dark Side energy" who are equipped with "deadly" Sith amulets capable of forcing very powerful force users down on the ground with a casual blast of energy. That amulet alone would give Ulic a nice advantage in that duel. Add his superior lightsaber talent, more experience, some Dark Side knowledge and more duelling expertice on his side and you also might reach the conclusion that the Exile would finally go down here.