Jedi Exile vs Ulic Qel Droma

Originally posted by Allankles
And she doesn't talk about combat, in general dumbass, she talks about Tulak horde being the greatest of lightsaber duelists among the ancient Sith and that the current gen would be as children playing with toys (toys being the lightsabers) compared to the ancient masters (of the lightsaber).

Don't just pick and choose parts of the quotes to suit your crappy arguments. Kreia was talking about lightsaber combat specifically, as it's the Exile who asks Kreia about the lightsaber combat in his age as compared to the ancient Sith. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Excuse me? What sith did Kreia defeat on Malachor? And has it occured to you that the wall of light that worked on the ancient sith didn't work on exar Kun because, oh I don't know, he was TOO DAMN POWERFUL? Nice argument dumbass.

She defeated several identifiable albeit unknown Sith on Malachor. Odan defeated unknown unidentifiable Sith. Get the difference brainy?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually you don't know how long Kreia was a "historian". And lets assume for argument's sake she was, Exar Kun learning from Nadd, Korriban, and all of Sadow's teachings easily trumps the knowledge Kreia has.

Proof? Kreia learnt from many Sith and Jedi, how are we to assume she had less knowledge at her disposal. Plus she showed more knowledge of the force than Kun has shown.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No dumbass, it's not canon. There you go again pulling a "satan" and "AC" and embarassing yourself by taking gameplay mechanics and trying to pass them off as canon. There is absolutely NO canon source that states she was adept in all the lightsaber forms, and force forms..Once again, bravo dumbass.

She possessed the knowledge of all the lightsaber forms (irrespective of the Exile's experiences). Whether she was an adept or not is a pointless and fruitless argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Translation: When an argument is defeated or in your case, wtfpwned, make some shit up!.

Coming from you, in this thread, this means what? Please!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Denial isn't just another river in Egypt pumpkin.

WOW! 😮 Saxy called me pumpkin! 😉

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently you missed the part where I dozed off after reading your illogical bullshit. I had this dream that you stopped posting after humiliating yourself time and time again, but then I woke up.

People actually get humiliated here? Arguing over irreverent shit? You needs a life. 😱

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ets see, if I crushed your arguments and I possess kindergarDen level mental awareness, what does that make you?.

It makes me your e - slave master. Lick my e-boots slave.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Still in denial I see? I've noticed the pattern with you and AC. Anytime you two get wtfpwned, you somehow turn it around into a victory. D-E-N-I-A-L..

Pwned over what?! Last I checked I was the only one... you know ... debating. Maybe you can work on that in your next post.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Combat.. And my arguments may be crappy(very unlikely), but they trump yours every time.

My point being it wasn't combat (in general) that she was talking about, but lightsaber combat specifically. None of the ancient Sith we've read about used lightsabers. Get my point or do I need to write in bolded capitals?

Originally posted by Allankles
She defeated several identifiable albeit unknown Sith on Malachor. Odan defeated unknown unidentifiable Sith. Get the difference brainy?

Proof? Kreia learnt from many Sith and Jedi, how are we to assume she had less knowledge at her disposal. Plus she showed more knowledge of the force than Kun has shown.

She possessed the knowledge of all the lightsaber forms (irrespective of the Exile's experiences). Whether she was an adept or not is a pointless and fruitless argument.

[quote\People actually get humiliated here? Arguing over irreverent shit? You needs a life. 😱 [/quote]
Wtf is irreverent? And you take the time to post on here so you are equally responsible for your pathetic arguments. And seeing as how you keep repeating your nonsense and getting wtfpwned, you need more of a life than me.

Pwned over what?! Last I checked I was the only one... you know ... debating. Maybe you can work on that in your next post. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, Odan defeated ancient sith, and Kreia defeated sith troopers. Thanks..

Troopers? That's why you're such a great debater, this is microcosm of Saxy as a debater

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Who did she learn from? Revan? Who? We know Kun learned on Korriban, from Nadd, and finally all of Sadow's sith magic and alchemy. And no, Kun has shown more than Kreia, unless a force drain>Amulet blasts+sith magic+sith alchemy.

Who did Sadow learn from, who did Ragnos learn from? It's a question without an answer and generally pointless. And the force drain was the full extent of Kreia's knowledge in the force. Let me say this again: Kreia showed herself to be more knowledgable in the force than Kun. Now find the key word in the previous sentence? Shown..... Which is all that matters given it's fiction.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Ah ok, so you're making an assumption that she possessed knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms. Good thing you can back that up. Oh wait.

Who's making an assumption? I don't need any more sources than the official game. Kreia posseses knowledge of all the seven lightsaber forms, irrespective of the Exile's experiences.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Wtf is irreverent? And you take the time to post on here so you are equally responsible for your pathetic arguments. And seeing as how you keep repeating your nonsense and getting wtfpwned, you need more of a life than me.

I know my self-respect isn't on the line, do you? Easy there honey.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, youre the only one getting wtfpwned and coming back for more. Nothing in your text even hints at logical debating.

That hurt honey?! Why do you always hurt my feelings pumpkin?

Originally posted by Allankles
Plus she showed more knowledge of the force than Kun has shown.

In terms of abilities? No, she hasn't. Exar Kun is a master of Sith magic, something Kreia's neither displayed or confirmed to know, a master of Sith alchemy, again something Kreia has never demonstrated nor said to have been acquainted with it. Exar Kun also knows powers such as Force lightning, Force whirlwind, Force choke (or a skill resembling such, when he nigh instantly killed Odan Urr with it), has several techniques that even post-DE Luke could not defend against, and have never been so much as mentioned anywhere else.

Let's continue the list: drain life energy (source: JA Sourcebook), electronic manipulation, and the ability to wipe memories. Of course, it's stated that these records did not survive 'on Yavin or elsewhere', and that they died with Kun. And these were only some of the "remnant powers", which implies he knows a vast amount of Sith teachings. That's not including the fact he was able to construct his own Sith gauntlet, and knew more about that than Traya.

Compare this what Kreia has shown: force drain, telekinetic lightsaber combat, and some miscellaneous powers (breath control? Force feat? Wow). Kun had completely managed to become adept, and one of the most powerful beings ever in mere months, which speaks volumes for what he had in his possession. Furthermore, as been stated, he gained "more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use [in his entire life]" on Ossus, ergo I'm inclined to say he has more sources and knowledge than Traya, and a larger abundance of such.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot to mention hibernation trance (akin to that of Traya's in the beginning of KotOR).

Originally posted by Advent
In terms of abilities? No, she hasn't. Exar Kun is a master of Sith magic, something Kreia's neither displayed or confirmed to know, a master of Sith alchemy, again something Kreia has never demonstrated nor said to have been acquainted with it. Exar Kun also knows powers such as Force lightning, Force whirlwind, Force choke (or a skill resembling such, when he nigh instantly killed Odan Urr with it), has several techniques that even post-DE Luke could not defend against, and have never been so much as mentioned anywhere else.

Let's continue the list: drain life energy (source: JA Sourcebook), electronic manipulation, and the ability to wipe memories. Of course, it's stated that these records did not survive 'on Yavin or elsewhere', and that they died with Kun. And these were only some of the "remnant powers", which implies he knows a vast amount of Sith teachings. That's not including the fact he was able to construct his own Sith gauntlet, and knew more about that than Traya.

Compare this what Kreia has shown: force drain, telekinetic lightsaber combat, and some miscellaneous powers (breath control? Force feat? Wow). Kun had completely managed to become adept, and one of the most powerful beings ever in mere months, which speaks volumes for what he had in his possession. Furthermore, as been stated, he gained "more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use [in his entire life]" on Ossus, ergo I'm inclined to say he has more sources and knowledge than Traya, and a larger abundance of such.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot to mention hibernation trance (akin to that of Traya's in the beginning of KotOR).

Could you please identify for me instances where Kun used lightning, whirlwind, drain life, electronic manipulation, memory wipe?

I could list a series of force powers Kreia potentially knows, whether canonically confirmed or otherwise.

I'm not talking about meaningless spectacles, I'm talking about knowledge, in the vein of Palpatine's subtle application of the dark side. I'm talking about how she's shown a deeper and broader understanding of the force than Kun. I never claimed Kun didn't possess great knowledge, I'm arguing that Kreia had more knowledge than him.

Originally posted by Allankles
Troopers? That's why you're such a great debater, this is microcosm of Saxy as a debater

Who did Sadow learn from, who did Ragnos learn from? It's a question without an answer and generally pointless. And the force drain was the full extent of Kreia's knowledge in the force. Let me say this again: Kreia showed herself to be more knowledgable in the force than Kun. Now find the key word in the previous sentence? Shown..... Which is all that matters given it's fiction.

Who's making an assumption? I don't need any more sources than the official game. Kreia posseses knowledge of all the seven lightsaber forms, irrespective of the Exile's experiences.

I know my self-respect isn't on the line, do you? Easy there honey.

That hurt honey?! Why do you always hurt my feelings pumpkin?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
pwned bigboy

pwned bigboy

Originally posted by Allankles
Could you please identify for me instances where Kun used lightning, whirlwind, drain life, electronic manipulation, memory wipe?

How about I post where it's explicitly stated that he knows these powers. The sources of which would be the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, and the Darkside Sourcebook. I can post scans if you'd like.

He doesn't have to demonstrate such powers to know them, considering a canon source labels him as knowing these.

I could list a series of force powers Kreia potentially knows, whether canonically confirmed or otherwise.

Then do it, Allankles.

And I just listed all the powers Kreia canonically knows, so the rest would be what we call "speculation" on your behalf. None of the techniques that I cited Kun as knowing were based on what he may know, they are what he does know (otherwise known as "factual information"😉.

I'm talking about how she's shown a deeper and broader understanding of the force than Kun.

And this means what exactly? Kun was never noted as a philosophical-esque Jedi or Sith, he doesn't need to look into the depths of the meanings of the Force, and I don't see how a better comprehension of the Force itself means she has 'more knowledge'.

She may be more associated with what the Force is about, but in regards to abilities and knowledge of such teachings? No. That goes directly to Kun, from what we know, and absolutely nothing suggests otherwise.

Originally posted by Allankles
pwned bigboy

Wonderful rebuttal.

Advent you forgot her healing abilities that are on Cades level.

my. Vrook calls the Exile a mediocre Jedi. Vandar goes and calls her average (overall) but equipped with a unique ability (force bonds). This is effectively all that matters.

Ulic was descriped as an outstanding combatant even before he started his Jedi training and when he did, he was again recognized as being outstanding among the other Jedi students of that time. The point is where both of them start off.

No, thats you trying to salvage your point, your point was forming an argument that the Exile blows based on one quote thats possibly decades old. Nice Job.

The Exile starts as average Jedi with a special ability that doesn't have any effects on actual combat. Ulic starts as a prodigeous student in the Jedi ways. They did both went to some adventures, fighting, wars and so on but the point is that Ulic had the better starting position and actually far better possibilities to develop compared to the Exile.

And yet Ulics possibilities were cut off what about 3 years after KOTOR the comics started. Where as the Exiles is limitless due to her bonding ability.

The facts always remain the same. The Exile was nothing special before he disappearance.

Again, who cares, and you'd be wrong too, Malak according to HK-47 who was there first hand calls the Exile very skilled to the point of being a threat to the new Sith.

And after she returned to the Galaxy she just became special because her force connection did come back.

So what, Spiderman was some lame ass loser before he got bit.

Yet what did she do that was so great that it puts her above Ulic ? She was not capable of defeating Nihilus on her own.

And Ulic of course would be 🙄

She was not capable of defeating Sion in normal combat (in fact Kreia tells her to run when first confronting him).

And then she beats him on Malachor. Go figure.

Yet all people she confronts were obviously not on par with somebody like Revan in terms of power and combat skills who in turn is weaker than Exar Kun in his prime.

Debatable.

So how is she going to defeat the guy who was the only being capable of stalemating Exar Kun ?

when Ulic faced Kun he was NOT in his prime, in fact he had yet to attain the knowledge from Ossus, create his new lightsaber style, do all of the 1337 feats that he does, Kun at the end of his life was his prime.

Oh my. While KotoR is a nice game it's still rather limited in actually showing things like they happened. You can't expect 100 % realism from a game. Now does it really make sense to you that somebody has to be cut down and then comes up with some talking, just to be cut down again - this being repeated five times ? Of course I saw him being cut down. The point is that (imaging this like a scene from a SW movie) it would make more sense that they were talking either while fighting or after the Exile did land an successful attack on Sion. Something like Luke and Vader in ESB. You actually don't pause a fight completely just to exchange two lines of dialog and then continue the fight as if nothing has happened.

Even if your scenario is correct, The Exile STILL has to have the skill to hold off Sion where he says he is being bolstered in power by Malachor, so really, your point is she can't beat Sion and yet she goes from being completely outclassed by him, to being able to hold off, and convince him to die in the process.

See my last post. That won't explain a massive gain in power as she didn't destroy powerful opponents (force wise) during her journey throughout the Galaxy.

See the line

"killing hundreds"

Just because they aren't Jedi Masters doesn't mean it doesn't add up, also she kills MANY Sith Assassins which were directly stated that their power was proportional to the Exiles at any one time.

Simply have a look at Nihilus. He zapped a planet filled with force users empty and still is defeat-able when he should actually have turned into some godlike being untouchable by anybody since he had the power of thousand of Jedi and millions of Miraluka. Yet obviously that isn't the case. Kreia even says that "There is no strength" in Nihilus ever growing hunger.

He's defeat-able ONLY by the Exile, even in his weakened state (him being hungry where his power wains) he could still kill any other forcer user, the ONLY reason the Exile was able to win because of her status as wound in the force. NO ONE (without the ability to loop), else would have been able to survive the situation on the Ravager except for the Exile, and even after all that he was still beating them (as the dialog lines of "He's to powerful." indicate) and it took anther blow, Visas to weaken him enough to be beat.

There maybe force users who have more knowledge, better skills ect, but unless you can loop out of the force or your a wound, your dead against Nihlius.

[

Was defeating your own argument willfully done or was that just some mistake on your sight. As you said: Kreia did spent almost every waking minute with the Exile and already knew how powerful the Exile was. So what should be the point of testing that strength again ? Kreia basically knows the result of that "test" before coming up with it. As I said: Kreia did want to fight the Exile because she didn't want to live any longer as she has grown tired of relying on the force which she did hate. That's what she says herself after the Exile did actually defeat her. Yet she did want to prepare the Exile for the journey into the outer regions once again. She did need that personal confrontation but I still don't see why she should have wanted to kill the Exile. Aside from the fact that she must have known that she couldn't do that it would have destroyed all effort she did put into the Exile.

What your claiming contradicts Kreia's entire character, she goes in depth in the game to berate the Exile when ever she simple "gives" something away to someone without having them earn it, she believes that it only serves to weaken them, now why would Kreia in her final battle with her student contradict the lessons she worked so hard to instill in the Exile? It doesn't make sense, she was going all out, otherwise she'd be a hypocrite.

Yeah. I'm sure that Kreia is uber skilled in the art of lightsaber combat fencing with her offhand as Sion did already took her main weapon hand off.

Good enough to live through her adventures with the Exile, and as she still displays master level lightsaber abilities (In-game) we can assume she was more then adept with it.

I wonder why Kreia did simply kept healing herself in the fight with the Exile if she absolutely wanted to kill the Exile then. Ups.

Because logically it takes time to concentrate to perform a skill of that level, as Cade shows. Ups.

Aside of that Luke was capable to reanimate himself

Out of curiosity, when was this, not that I'm denying it.

get poisoned air out of his lungs

So can the Exile and Traya.

and heals at least one almost mortal wound while being knocked of in the first book of the Callista trilogy.

So can the Exile as HK says.

Then we have Cil'gal who obviously also has vast healing abilties considering how she cured Mon Mothma.

And? Luke still says he's never seen healing on that level.

Aside of that, Kreia is still not compareable to somebody like Exar Kun.

I must have missed when I compared her in ANYWAY to Exar...

Moving objects independant from each other ? Luke was capable of doing this after some days or weeks of training under Yoda (several stones, R2D2 in ESB).

Oh yes and stones are then same as Lightsabers moving independent of each other with almost a will of their own. Nice.

Cloaking oneself in the force ? Asajj Ventress was capable of doing that before she even received training by Dooku (seen when she sneaks up to Dooku in the CW cartoons).

Doesn't Dooku know it was her.

Actually Kreia's most impressive feat is to kill the Jedi Masters on Dantooine which was pretty nice - no argument there. However...Kun managed to do pretty much the same to Odan Urr who, at this time, was one of the most powerful individuals in the Jedi Order. That aside from tossing people like Sylvar and Aleema around like ragdolls with his force abilities .

Relevancy?

Since that wasn't an option when the TOTJ comics were written as the fighting was based on the craptastic choreography of the OT where nobody does actually exhibit superhuman speed in a duel and were superhuman strength is just given to Vader because of his cyborg body.

So wait, you can apply our current knowledge of the EU to the older comics( like you did in the Bane topic with Nomi) but I can't? Logically Ulic was boosting himself with the force during the duel, again didn't he cleave through Mandalores weapon? Thats obvious use of the force.

Oh my. When Kun did go to fight Ulic he had already destroyed Nadd's spirit and read through whatever Sadow left behind. He also did defeat Vodo at that point in time already and he was capable of simply blasting Aleema aside as if she were nothing. After that he does what to improve his power ? He obviously is busy designing his new weapon, the corresponding fighting style, teaching some people and have some nice war going on. But I didn't see him doing actually "training" much after his duel with Ulic.

Jesus enough with the "Oh my" its annoying as hell, so wait studying one Sith Lord, beating his master who was nothing special in terms of combat skill or (not to mention he was a complete idiot) and owning Aleema (LOL how hard is that), is proof of his "leet" skills? However AFTER his duel with Ulic is when he starts to exhibit his leetness, when he freezes the Senate, creates a new style, Drains an race of people, gains the knowledge from Ossus. Really now, Kun at the end of his life would shit on Ulic.

The point is that he was fighting an enraged Jedi. Now look at what happens when Jedi that lost control do enter actual combat. Luke kicks Vaders sorry ass across the place in seconds, Anakin does the same with Dooku pretty much. Ulic pretty much did the same to Cay just before. Now given the natural advantages of a force user over a non-force user (reflexes, minor forsight and so on) it's pretty impressive that he lasted more than seconds. And of course he did run away at one point. He's still shown to defend against Sylvar who obviously did come to kill him over a rather long time.

Yeah. The deadliest man in the Galaxy which later did become Mandalore. Now you can judge how impressive it was that Ulic did actually defeat the Mandalore at a time where the Mandalorians where in their prime and not on the edge of extinction as they were in Jango Fett's time.

And that makes Mandalore the Ultimate (I think thats the one) on the same level as Jango Fett? Who's to say Jango wouldn't have been THE Mandalor had he lived in the KOTOR time.

Actually those people in the TOTJ comics are all pretty damn brutes. Kun simply pushing Sylvar down was especially funny.

I wonder were they supposed to look like gym rats or was it because they were "main" characters? I've seen other pictures of Kun and Ulic, especially the TOTJ covers that make them look like more a "just fit" person.

I guess that doesn't apply to me as I'm seven years older than you and don't have ego problems. 😛

Your 25 and you still do this? Oh my 😛

Erm. Actually Kreia says it cannot be taught but it can be gained through instinct and EXPERIENCING it. So obviously it can be learned and somehow obviously Nihilus as well as Kreia did learn it.

Yeah, but that would assume people like Sidious too faced the same circumstances, and its not even the same power, Kreia describes something COMPLETELY different from what Sidious does to Byss.

The long ago is still no exact definition and aside of that I already told you why it doesn't matter.

And the KOTOR game makes it pretty clear that they didn't accept "older" candidates for training unless it was a very special case, at least AFTER the GSW, they make a note in the game that they only take in kids for training, so it strikes me as odd that they'd let some old hag like Kreia in.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Who cares? This was as I said +12 years ago from KOTOR 2 its HARDLY relevant anymore.

No, thats you trying to salvage your point, your point was forming an argument that the Exile blows based on one quote thats possibly decades old. Nice Job.

You simply don't want to get it, right ? The Exile started of as midiocre (Vrook) at best average (Vandar) stundent of the ways of the Jedi - that means force powers and lightsaber fighting abilities are average. What follows after that until the end of the Mandalorian Wars is still the development of an average force user who simply can't climb the rock to the top of the outstanding people in that department. That's because she simply lacks talent, ambition or whatever. That was confirmed so don't argue against it.

Now what did she receive after the Mandalorian wars ? First her force connection was cut off completely and she didn't have a lightsaber during her journey through the galaxy. This means we can totally ignore that time. If anything her skills weakened in any department because of the lack of training.

When her powers are awakening again she does possess two special abilities: The force bonds and the fact that she's a wound in the force. The rest ? Average. See. It can't be different because nobody simply turns from "Average Joe" to "Genious Albert". The best thing you might say is that she gained additional raw power through that abilities. Yet RotS pretty much shows us what raw power means if you don't have the required skill and knowledge (both departments are average here) to actually use it. See Anakin, who is by far more powerful than Obi-Wan, failing to overcome his former master with a force push.

And yet Ulics possibilities were cut off what about 3 years after KOTOR the comics started. Where as the Exiles is limitless due to her bonding ability.

Oh what, genious ? Limitless possibilities ? Her force bond only works on people she does befriend (her crew) and people she kills (her opponents, the force drain so to say). Both being pretty meaningless in a duel.

Again, who cares, and you'd be wrong too, Malak according to HK-47 who was there first hand calls the Exile very skilled to the point of being a threat to the new Sith.

Where exactly ? The Exile did obviously obey Revan's orders for a reason to the point she gave the order to exterminate thousands upon thousands of live on his command. I wonder how that incarnation of the Exile, still being AVERAGE, should have been a thread for Malak or Revan.

And Ulic of course would be 🙄

Just for the sake of the argument: If you would give Ulic the ability to outright resist Nihilus force drain (an ability the Exile had) he might very well able to defeat Nihilus in personal combat.

And then she beats him on Malachor. Go figure.

Again she is neither able to destroy him with force powers nor is she able to kill him with a lightsaber. So what ?

when Ulic faced Kun he was NOT in his prime, in fact he had yet to attain the knowledge from Ossus, create his new lightsaber style, do all of the 1337 feats that he does, Kun at the end of his life was his prime.

You are aware of the fact that Kun did optain the knowledge from Ossus after he did defeat Vodo and Odan so that actually doesn't matter aside from the fact that this would be Jedi knowledge only. So he had his entire Dark Side knowledge already when confronting Ulic for the first time which he actually says himself. And his lightsaber knowledge was also enough to defeat Vodo before and tool Sylvar and Krado pretty much.

Even if your scenario is correct, The Exile STILL has to have the skill to hold off Sion where he says he is being bolstered in power by Malachor, so really, your point is she can't beat Sion and yet she goes from being completely outclassed by him, to being able to hold off, and convince him to die in the process.

Which says what exactly ? Sion apparently was some low level pawn of Revan's original Sith Empire which actually doesn't make him appear like the uber duellist or force user. And going by his outward appearance he seems to have received some nice ass kicking by other persons.

Just because they aren't Jedi Masters doesn't mean it doesn't add up, also she kills MANY Sith Assassins which were directly stated that their power was proportional to the Exiles at any one time.

What it means is that there isn't much to take from them. You actually only have to look as Kreia's plan for Nihilus on Telos. He lured him there and he should have died there finding only one Jedi and the rest of the population.
And no. The Sith Assassins have been said to partially benefit from the power of a force wielding opponent. As you might have noticed, the Exile is a hole in the force and Nihilus, when trying to drain her, is actually weakened. So ? Aside of that they don't appear to be that powerful considering how killer simply kills / knocks out six of them with apparent ease.

He's defeat-able ONLY by the Exile, even in his weakened state (him being hungry where his power wains) he could still kill any other forcer user, the ONLY reason the Exile was able to win because of her status as wound in the force. NO ONE (without the ability to loop), else would have been able to survive the situation on the Ravager except for the Exile, and even after all that he was still beating them (as the dialog lines of "He's to powerful." indicate) and it took anther blow, Visas to weaken him enough to be beat.

There maybe force users who have more knowledge, better skills ect, but unless you can loop out of the force or your a wound, your dead against Nihlius.

Whoopie.
Kreia herself said that there is no power power beyond his hunger. And what do you have confronting Nihilus ? An average Jedi, a non force user, and some minor force sensitive. I'm damn impressed that he's too powerful for them. Not. Actually Visas and Mandalore should have been killed in the first seconds of that fight if Nihilus is so uber powerful. Instead he is defeated.
Just for example put Dooku in that situation instead of Nihilus. Dooku managed to take out an above average Jedi Master while kicking the dude with the greatest force potential ever through the room with apparent ease. He would have instantly killed or knocked out Mandalore, proceeded with tossing Visas through the room like he did with Obi-Wan in RotS and then killed the Exile. At least he would have been smart enough not to try and deal with three opponents at once.

That actually shows how limited Nihilus indeed is. As I said: Nothing special aside from his vast force drain capabilities. And everyone able to put up some protection against that, would be a contest for him.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What your claiming contradicts Kreia's entire character, she goes in depth in the game to berate the Exile when ever she simple "gives" something away to someone without having them earn it, she believes that it only serves to weaken them, now why would Kreia in her final battle with her student contradict the lessons she worked so hard to instill in the Exile? It doesn't make sense, she was going all out, otherwise she'd be a hypocrite.

Oh my. Let's for one minute estimate you are right. Obviously she can't do much to the Exile with her (supposed) lightsaber skills as she just has her off-hand left as you might have noticed. She can't use her instakill on the Exile (as it would weaken her or at the very least not work). So even if she wanted to go all out on the Exile she was never able to do so as her most powerful weapon was rendered useless by the Exile's very nature. That leaves her with what exactly ?

Good enough to live through her adventures with the Exile, and as she still displays master level lightsaber abilities (In-game) we can assume she was more then adept with it.

Oh. What adventures with the Exile would that be ? She's commanding the Exile around via the force on Peragus for most of the time. She does go out and explore Dxun with the Exile. Aside of that ? Nothing canon.

Because logically it takes time to concentrate to perform a skill of that level, as Cade shows. Ups.

So effictively, aside from being some healing power anyways, it won't help her in a fight ? Thanks.

Out of curiosity, when was this, not that I'm denying it.

"Children of the Jedi". He get's knocked out by an explosion (and debris hitting him), inhales some nice amount of cooling gas to an extend that Cray said he thought he "was a goner". Yet he heals himself while still unconciousness.

So can the Exile and Traya.

No. They can hold their breath longer than regular humans using the force. That's it.

I must have missed when I compared her in ANYWAY to Exar...

You did obviously put her above Exar as he was when confronting Ulic for the first time. Otherwise your argument doesn't make sense.

Oh yes and stones are then same as Lightsabers moving independent of each other with almost a will of their own. Nice.

Yeah. Those lightsabers were moving so uber fast and with uber accurate movements. Hell...she didn't do much more as levitating them and let them cut individually if you want to go by what we see in game. Where the difference between that and moving other objects around ?

Doesn't Dooku know it was her.

Dooku didn't even know her at that point in time.

Relevancy?

Ulic did stalemate him. That's the relevant thing here.

So wait, you can apply our current knowledge of the EU to the older comics( like you did in the Bane topic with Nomi) but I can't? Logically Ulic was boosting himself with the force during the duel, again didn't he cleave through Mandalores weapon? Thats obvious use of the force.

Urm. Mandalore taunts him to be unfair because of using the lightsaber and his force powers. Ulic puts the lightsaber away, takes some sort off axe and goes to fight Mandalore again with that. Yet he doesn't shatter Mandalore's weapon. He simply hammers so hard on it that Mandalore falls down from the position he was on and loses his weapon. In the comic you can see that the weapon in Mandalore's hand is still intact when he falls.

Jesus enough with the "Oh my" its annoying as hell, so wait studying one Sith Lord, beating his master who was nothing special in terms of combat skill or (not to mention he was a complete idiot) and owning Aleema (LOL how hard is that), is proof of his "leet" skills? However AFTER his duel with Ulic is when he starts to exhibit his leetness, when he freezes the Senate, creates a new style, Drains an race of people, gains the knowledge from Ossus. Really now, Kun at the end of his life would shit on Ulic.

He had his entire Dark Side knowledge BEFORE duelling Ulic. Don't you get that into your head ? He could have done anything he did after that duel also before that duel happened which is pretty apparent from the fact that he stated himself that he's learned all about Sith magic when confronting Ulic and tossing Aleema around. And Aleema before that did exhibit the power to burn the entire skin of some of her pawn with one single blast of Dark Side energy.

And nice comment. If the 600 year old Jedi Master who was "respected and honored as a Jedi Master and historian" is an idiot, what's Kreia than doing the same but having less time to do it ?

You just compared two Skywalkers to Sylvar...and sure its impressive buts its not "OMG ULIC IS GOD!!!!111!!!!" that your making it out to be.

No. It's "OMG Ulic managed to survive fighting an enraged Jedi while having lost his force powers" - action never done before or repeated after. And Sylvar is still pretty strong (physically) at least enough to shatter Kun's helmet in their duel and to tool Massassi with her bare hands.

And that makes Mandalore the Ultimate (I think thats the one) on the same level as Jango Fett? Who's to say Jango wouldn't have been THE Mandalor had he lived in the KOTOR time.

You did notice first that the Mandalorians were basically at the peak of their power during their Crusade ? Canderous states this multiple times in KotoR while recalling his memories. Or as you love Kreia so much:

"Perhaps there will be no new age, Mandalore, no great Mandalorian crusade. Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries. And perhaps all that remains will be what I see before me: a man, wounded by a Jedi, encased in a Mandalorian shell, haunted by the thought of being the last of the Mandalorians."

"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."

It's pretty much apparent that the Mandalorians declined in power that they did went from being able to take on Jedi in sheer melee combat to needing several gimmics to actually escape them alive. It's pretty obvious that the Mandalore that Ulic fought is more powerful than anybody wearing that title after him. And I know that Jango did kill Jedi too, even bare handed, but not enraged Jedi or Sith Lords.

I wonder were they supposed to look like gym rats or was it because they were "main" characters? I've seen other pictures of Kun and Ulic, especially the TOTJ covers that make them look like more a "just fit" person.

There actually is no point in arguing the physical strength of Kun or Ulic given how Kun pushed Sylvar down one-handed (see Sylvar's physical strength about) and that Ulic was able to content with her. And actually they appear pretty mucle-packed inside the comics which is what actually matters.

And the KOTOR game makes it pretty clear that they didn't accept "older" candidates for training unless it was a very special case, at least AFTER the GSW, they make a note in the game that they only take in kids for training, so it strikes me as odd that they'd let some old hag like Kreia in.

Quote please. Canonically that policy was introduced with the Ruusan reformation. And hell...what was so special about Juhani who said that Taris was "her home for many years" before she started her Jedi training ? And it still doesn't matter as I've told you before.

You simply don't want to get it, right ? The Exile started of as midiocre (Vrook) at best average (Vandar) student of the ways of the Jedi - that means force powers and lightsaber fighting abilities are average. What follows after that until the end of the Mandalorian Wars is still the development of an average force user who simply can't climb the rock to the top of the outstanding people in that department. That's because she simply lacks talent, ambition or whatever. That was confirmed so don't argue against it.

Great, and what you still don't get is your talking about a PADAWAN, and as said your obviously wrong, as Malak himself seems to think the Exile is pretty damn skilled, she was skilled to the point that she was as Kreia says, feared by the Mandalorians, whom as you seem to agree where at the strongest they'd ever been, That was confirmed don't argue against it.

When her powers are awakening again she does possess two special abilities: The force bonds and the fact that she's a wound in the force. The rest ? Average. See. It can't be different because nobody simply turns from "Average Joe" to "Genious Albert".

Again, had you been right about the average crap, you'd have a point, but as seen through in countless examples in Star Wars, war and conflict brings out the best in Jedi, serving to make them more powerful, what did the Exile face? Three years of one of the most bloody wars in galactic history against opponents as the KOTOR games note that one Mandalorian was equal to 10 Republic soldiers. Not to mention these same warriors had fear and respect for the Exile, so really your "she's average." argument is pretty damn bull shit.

Oh what, genious ? Limitless possibilities ? Her force bond only works on people she does befriend (her crew) and people she kills (her opponents, the force drain so to say). Both being pretty meaningless in a duel.

Oh My, really of the marker with that one, the point was: you going off on how uber Ulic is simply because he wasn't called average as a padawan, which you pointed out gave him more "possibilities." The Exile however due to her bonding nature is not limited by her current status and there are no caps for her power, and she doesn't have to befriend people for the bond to be made all thats needed is an extended period of time being around her. That was the point.

Where exactly ? The Exile did obviously obey Revan's orders for a reason to the point she gave the order to exterminate thousands upon thousands of live on his command. I wonder how that incarnation of the Exile, still being AVERAGE, should have been a thread for Malak or Revan.

Oh My, The Exile has her own reasons for as to why she followed Revans orders (they are in affect "your" reasons for as to whys he followed Revan) however you seem to have missed to fact that she was the ONLY person to disobey Revan and NOT follow him to the outer rim. And I've already dealt with the "average" crap.

J

ust for the sake of the argument: If you would give Ulic the ability to outright resist Nihilus force drain (an ability the Exile had) he might very well able to defeat Nihilus in personal combat.

Thats nice, but he doesn't ,and we don't "give" him abilities he can with about a 99% accuracy never attain.

Again she is neither able to destroy him with force powers nor is she able to kill him with a lightsaber. So what ?

Because its IMPOSSIBLE to due so. Nice Job.

You are aware of the fact that Kun did obtain the knowledge from Ossus after he did defeat Vodo and Odan so that actually doesn't matter aside from the fact that this would be Jedi knowledge only.

Which flows into the point of:

"He was at his prime at the end of his life."

So he had his entire Dark Side knowledge already when confronting Ulic for the first time which he actually says himself.

Yeah, that of one Sith Lord, Naga Sadow, the same knowledge Naad had, and isn't it when he takes the knowledge from Ossus that he is stated with having attained:

"More knowledge then he can ever use."

Thus my point, all his "Leet" events occur AFTER his duel with Ulic which lead us to believe that he was only increasing in power, and when he fought Ulic he was not at his full potential.

And his lightsaber knowledge was also enough to defeat Vodo before and tool Sylvar and Krado pretty much.

Thats also super, but when where any of the three before mentioned to be ANYTHING special in combat? Oh yeah, they weren't.

Which says what exactly ? Sion apparently was some low level pawn of Revan's original Sith Empire which actually doesn't make him appear like the uber duellist or force user.

And that was BEFORE his training on Malachor, which after that he has the skill to beat Jedi Masters (Vash).

And going by his outward appearance he seems to have received some nice ass kicking by other persons.

And going by Sidious outward appearance he looks like he gotten the shit beat out of him, and like he's hadn't slept for years (which he hasn't). I think you get the point.

What it means is that there isn't much to take from them. You actually only have to look as Kreia's plan for Nihilus on Telos. He lured him there and he should have died there finding only one Jedi and the rest of the population.

No, her plan was to weaken him enough to be killed by the Exile, not Atris and as Visas states the population of Telso would have sustained him. Your wrong.

And no. The Sith Assassins have been said to partially benefit from the power of a force wielding opponent. As you might have noticed, the Exile is a hole in the force and Nihilus, when trying to drain her, is actually weakened. So ? Aside of that they don't appear to be that powerful considering how killer simply kills / knocks out six of them with apparent ease.

I'll drop the quote for no being as though I can't find the quote to prove me right yet.

Whoopie.
Kreia herself said that there is no power power beyond his hunger.

Thats nice ,and yet there is, and she does the same thing he does.

And what do you have confronting Nihilus ? An average Jedi, a non force user, and some minor force sensitive. I'm damn impressed that he's too powerful for them. Not. Actually Visas and Mandalore should have been killed in the first seconds of that fight if Nihilus is so uber powerful. Instead he is defeated.

Because of extenuating circumstances.

Just for example put Dooku in that situation instead of Nihilus. Dooku managed to take out an above average Jedi Master while kicking the dude with the greatest force potential ever through the room with apparent ease. He would have instantly killed or knocked out Mandalore, proceeded with tossing Visas through the room like he did with Obi-Wan in RotS and then killed the Exile. At least he would have been smart enough not to try and deal with three opponents at once.

Irrelevant.

I really don't care, just cause he's not the greatest tactical mind in no way takes away from his power.

That actually shows how limited Nihilus indeed is. As I said: Nothing special aside from his vast force drain capabilities.

And that ability is what makes him "ZOMG" powerful. What the hell is your point?

And everyone able to put up some protection against that, would be a contest for him.

And that would amount to...oh yeah The Exile and Luke. Nice list long list of people isn't it!

Oh my. Let's for one minute estimate you are right. Obviously she can't do much to the Exile with her (supposed) lightsaber skills as she just has her off-hand left as you might have noticed. She can't use her instakill on the Exile (as it would weaken her or at the very least not work). So even if she wanted to go all out on the Exile she was never able to do so as her most powerful weapon was rendered useless by the Exile's very nature. That leaves her with what exactly ?

Oh. What adventures with the Exile would that be ? She's commanding the Exile around via the force on Peragus for most of the time. She does go out and explore Dxun with the Exile. Aside of that ? Nothing canon.

Dxun filled with vicious creatures that even tore the Mandalore you nutting over apart. And as said visibly she performs at a master level.

So effictively, aside from being some healing power anyways, it won't help her in a fight ? Thanks.

Did I say it would? No. Thanks. Do Cades? No. Are they still 1337 according to Luke? Yeah.

You did obviously put her above Exar as he was when confronting Ulic for the first time. Otherwise your argument doesn't make sense.

Yeah at that point sure especially with her drain, but at the end of his life? f*ck no.

Yeah. Those lightsabers were moving so uber fast and with uber accurate movements .

Actually they do, going by what we see in the game. And you show me in ESB where Luke can move the rock around independent of each other having them behave individually and not as a collective group and having the fight a force user.

Dooku didn't even know her at that point in time.

And? He comments on her infiltration skills before she jumps into the fray, signaling that he knows she was there, if not, then if its that easy to sneak up and kill Dooku then why hadn't she already done it.

Ulic did stalemate him. That's the relevant thing here.

Been covered.

Urm. Mandalore taunts him to be unfair because of using the lightsaber and his force powers. Ulic puts the lightsaber away, takes some sort off axe and goes to fight Mandalore again with that. Yet he doesn't shatter Mandalore's weapon. He simply hammers so hard on it that Mandalore falls down from the position he was on and loses his weapon. In the comic you can see that the weapon in Mandalore's hand is still intact when he falls.

And that stopped him from passively using the force how? Unless your really expecting me to believe that Ulic who had just turned his back on his order, friends, master, and family is a man of his word. 😆

And Aleema before that did exhibit the power to burn the entire skin of some of her pawn with one single blast of Dark Side energy.

Great. Sith Magic obviously turns any scrub into a more powerful force user.

And nice comment. If the 600 year old Jedi Master who was "respected and honored as a Jedi Master and historian" is an idiot, what's Kreia than doing the same but having less time to do it ?

Vodo's actions speak MUCH louder then quotes. Lets start off with his biggest failure Exar Kun, instead of teaching Exar about how wrong the dark side is and what path he's moving down and how violence is wrong. What does he do? Trys to beat the shit out of him. Lets move on to Coruscant were he like a rtard only takes three Jedi with him to Ulic trial, 2 of them being losers (really was the entire Jedi order on vacation?). Then when Kun strolls in and he see's him freeze over a thousand people on a whim and announce he's a Sith Lord, he proceeds to take him on individually LOL , and with a f*cking stick. Let me spell this out for you: he tried to fight a Sith Lord with a STICK.

He's a dipshit.

No. It's "OMG Ulic managed to survive fighting an enraged Jedi while having lost his force powers" - action never done before or repeated after.

So wait the Jedi have to be angry now for it to be valid? 🙄

You did notice first that the Mandalorians were basically at the peak of their power during their Crusade ? Canderous states this multiple times in KotoR while recalling his memories. Or as you love Kreia so much:

"Perhaps there will be no new age, Mandalore, no great Mandalorian crusade. Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries. And perhaps all that remains will be what I see before me: a man, wounded by a Jedi, encased in a Mandalorian shell, haunted by the thought of being the last of the Mandalorians."

"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."

It's pretty much apparent that the Mandalorians declined in power that they did went from being able to take on Jedi in sheer melee combat to needing several gimmics to actually escape them alive. It's pretty obvious that the Mandalore that Ulic fought is more powerful than anybody wearing that title after him.

Oh My, other then Kreia is dead wrong: Boba Fett being Mandalore proves that wrong right away. That speaks for every Mandalorians individual skill how?

And I know that Jango did kill Jedi too, even bare handed, but not enraged Jedi or Sith Lords.

There actually is no point in arguing the physical strength of Kun or Ulic given how Kun pushed Sylvar down one-handed (see Sylvar's physical strength about) and that Ulic was able to content with her. And actually they appear pretty mucle-packed inside the comics which is what actually matters.

I wasn't arguing it, simple speculation.

Quote please. Canonically that policy was introduced with the Ruusan reformation. And hell...what was so special about Juhani who said that Taris was "her home for many years"

Zhar: We normally don't accept adults for training but you are a special case.

Vrook: its hard enough to mold the mind of an child and even harder in an adult.

Bastila: Maybe if you were younger... (Revan obviously being in his early twenties at the time)

before she started her Jedi training ?

She was still a girl as she says when she started her Jedi training.

And it still doesn't matter as I've told you before.

Yes it does.

Some people just can't concede when they've been defeated.

Originally posted by Advent
How about I post where it's explicitly stated that he knows these powers. The sources of which would be the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, and the Darkside Sourcebook. I can post scans if you'd like.

He doesn't have to demonstrate such powers to know them, considering a canon source labels him as knowing these.

Then do it, Allankles.

And I just listed all the powers Kreia canonically knows, so the rest would be what we call "speculation" on your behalf. None of the techniques that I cited Kun as knowing were based on what he may know, they are what he does know (otherwise known as "factual information"😉.

Then these are irrelevant. If you're getting these from source books. Unless I'm missing something, Jedi and Sith don't often show all they know in stories. Unless we have a source book on Kreia, I find it quite pointless to be comparing Kreia's in-story knowledge to out-of-universe sources on Kun's abilities, don't you think? Which are meaningless by themselves anyway.

I was talking about what each character has shown themselves to have in terms of force knowledge. Kun never demonstrated the ability to do more than half the powers you've listed, so the list is irrelevant to what we were arguing about.

And no I'm not dismissing the info, it's just that these are out-of-universe character references. I was talking about Kun in Kotor, not a listing of meaningless attributes from a character sheet.

I'm not saying Kun doesn't have these abilities, i'm saying he's never been shown to have them, and I was arguing over character representation in their individual stories.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Some people just can't concede when they've been defeated.

Any you do? Your arguments have been refuted with sound reason time and again in this one thread yet your still here repeating the same crap that was defeated on page 1.

1)The Exile is average (Darthsaxy) - based on an old recording of Vrook on dantooine talking about the Exile as a PADAWAN.

Yet before tha Mando wars the Jedi masters said he was skilled in battle; and during the very same war the Mando's feared her.

And yet again, during Kotor she achieves feats that no average Jedi would accomplish. I've said it many times that "average" in reference to the Exile in Kotor 2, is meaningless. Yet you'll continue to argue with little reason as to why the opposite is true.

2) She lucked out being a wound (darthsaxy) - we're talking about fiction, every one lucks out.

3) Nihilus isn't powerful he just has the force drain (darthsaxy) - the force drain makes him uber powerful genius.

4) Irrelevant arguments about hull breaches in ships.

5) Ulic's supposed superiority based on standing up to Kun in a duel that got interrupted by Ragnos. This is so inconclusive. He never showed himself to be anything more than a skilled combatant, which is the least you'd expect him to be considering he was supposed to be a great Jedi in his time. Let's not forget that Kun had just began growing into his role as Sith at the time.

By contrast the Exile killed an uber Sith, a physically immortal Sith, and one of the greatest force users of Kotor, in Kreia.